Open 651: Stack the Deck (Game Over)

[Vedith]

Bastion if you like confidence you should vote light_ganski with me.

You don't seem very confident.
Asking Light to join your wagon and doubting your ability to lynch?

[lilith2013]

Votecount 1.004

Prodding HighHopes and Hebee Inc.

kyndy101 [3]

Vedith, Sir Bastion, SoraAdvent

Vedith [2]

kyndy101, light_ganski

Hebee Inc [1]

Raskolnikov

light_ganski [2]

superbowl9, Lycanfire

SoraAdvent [1]

NJAC

Not Voting [3]

Hebee Inc, HighHopes, shaddowez

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline: (expired on 2016-08-22 01:30:00)

pagetop count: light_ganski 2 | Vedith 1 | NJAC 1 | shaddowez 1 | kyndy101 1

[Sir Bastion]

Bastion if you like confidence you should vote light_ganski with me.

there's nothing confident about your posts.

[Vedith]

@Mod - Have the hydra player accounts (not the hydra itself) been messaged? It's odd for those players to not have posted yet.

[superbowl9]

Was going to write a long post but flying back home today so that'll probly come tomorrow. Just gonna write some quick thoughts/early reads here tho:
I find kyndy's case to be a stretch/pretty bad but i agree with a couple points. Was very slightly scumreading vedith before her post tho which hasnt changed.
I do not like NJAC's play so far and he is my prime lynch target rn. I would vote him but since i cant really elaborate on anything I'll save it for tmrw.
@bastion why do you think vedith's confidence is a good thing?
Slight townread on sora and bastion.
I think thats it but anything i missed will be at the start of my long post.
Bye California!

The time has come!

Not to bring up old business, but the thing I forgot about was 110 and answering for other people. I mostly agree with Bastion but I want to say that interjecting yourself into an interaction is not always bad. It's also generally true (at least afaik) that keeping information to yourself (besides pr identities and other obvious exceptions) is bad for town, because the more accurate information we have the better. If you have an idea that nobody else has considered you should put it out there. Ofc I also agree that letting interactions happen naturally is also critical, cause you can get reactions/info and all, but I think you need to have a balance between those two sides of it.

Can you elaborate on "nice place for my vote to be"?

Not much to elaborate actually. Sort of a RVS vote. Sort of a pressure vote. Sort of maybe shadow could be onto something.

What exactly was shadow onto? Sora literally has one rvs post before this. That's like me saying I'm onto something with Raskolnikov rn. Regardless of your alignment, blindly sheeping the IC then claiming there's some kind of substance behind it when there clearly isn't is anti-town.

Combine this with the general lack of detail in his posts (51, 119) and it gives me the feeling that he's flying under the radar despite having the second highest post count. Someone who's that impressionable and makes empty statements (119 is again a prime example) is not someone I want to have around as town.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: NJAC

I felt that vedith was a little too jumpy around 64, and at first I thought that his confidence, which kind of contrasts the (imo) nervousness shown in that area, was also a sign of scum (makes sense to me since townies have less info and thus are less likely to be decisive). Bastion's post has made me want to lynch vedith less because his argument about the posting volume makes sense (vedith has the most posts so far), but still leaves me with vedith as my prime scumspect (although I think NJAC is the best lynch option atm im not sure about his alignment).

Add onto that our hero lycanfire who came in and messed with vedith a bit and wagoned him for all of 2 seconds. At first I didn't really see much of worth from this interaction, but then vedith posted150, which screamed salty at me when I first looked at it. Vedith can't resist taking a jab at lycan because he's thoroughly spooked by him (which I would read as nervous scum poking at something that's provided really nothing content-wise (seriously)).

Bastion is my stronger townread. Everytime he posts it feels like he's moving the game along. 80 is good, town points for poking at shadow and some of the first scumhunting of the game.

81 and 110 also give me a "friendly pro-town reminder" feeling that is genuine as far as I can tell.

Sora is my weakest read (he only has 1 content post) but that post pushes me ever so slightly town on him because it was the first (iirc) reads post and it also got the game moving and gave it a bit more of a serious content tone (prompted vedith's 132). I would like to see more from him before having a solid read though.

@bastion has your kyndy vote/read changed from her recent interactions?
@kyndy is vedith your only read atm?

[lilith2013]

@Mod - Have the hydra player accounts (not the hydra itself) been messaged? It's odd for those players to not have posted yet.

Yes, I messaged both the hydras and the individual players.

[SoraAdvent]

OK gonna post a response to kyndy that will double as a sorta-Vedith ISO and some general thoughts on how the game has developed so far. I'm really not too much of a fan of Vedith after some recent postings, and I'll explain why, as well as provide a general reads list that I'll probably get to explaining tomorrow-ish.

Before all of that,

I'd like to ask everyone for their reads (even basic ones will do) apart from those who have already provided reads in the last page or two

.

~~~~

All this is addressed to this earlier post made by kyndy here

, point by point: not gonna quote cause I don't want this post to be more cluttered than it already is gonna be. If you want to ignore this it's fine, the bottom post is far more important.

@21: Don't understand the reasoning here at all, sorry. Kyndy, could you explain this a little further, please?

@31: Odd wording here could just be his phrasing in general, in terms of his confidence (or whatever you wanna call it). Definitely don't think it's a scumslip at all

@38: Vedith's reasoning for continuing discussion while thinking it's useless is because 'it doesn't hurt to discuss'. I do agree the reasoning is definitely odd though, it seems he wants to make his voice heard just cause, and is not so much concerned with contributing as just saying things.

@41: I think he's explicitly stated he's not changing his opinion, though his post is a little confusing. When he mentions 'plausable (sic), just not probably imo', he's talking about whether it'd be helpful to learn about the whole 'what scum chose' thing, and the scenario he offers is trying to prove that. I don't agree with his reasoning at all, and I think his rhetoric towards the end of the post is him trying to be confident for confident's sake - but again, I don't think it's a shift in opinion at all.

@57: Completely agreed that Vedith didn't see that the IC was confirmed by the mod and was playing otherwise. I'd be inclined to read this carelessness a little more as scum than as town, actually, as it's consistent with his previous behaviour. Vedith doesn't seem so much concerned with contributing, at least to me, that he's contributing just for the sake of maneuvering himself into a position where he can control the pace of the game. This then explains his sarcastic commentary and general dramatism. Without knowing anything about his past meta, I'd be inclined to read this as scum wanting to take control of discussion and then not contributing, but again I'm not too sure on that.

People who have played with Vedith before, can you summarize his town/scum play?

@58: Covered in 57

@60: I actually disagree with you that it's towny. I may be tunneling here, but I view that post as just trying to get his voice out there. The post is relatively non-commital while appearing to have the air of contribution, which is something that scum love to do in general. This is a softer read, but I'll just throw that out there.

@64: Seems to just be a sarcastic comment to me, more indicative of personality than scumminess/towniness imo

@71: Same as 64

@93: It's an open setup, it's definitely not a dayvig

@95: Just Vedith being Vedith, not too much to read into that. It was 2 votes at the time he posted so I'll give him that.

@97: OK, the vote on you was an RVS vote. He may have forgotten he voted you at this point, though I'm not too sure about that considering he's aware of the votecount. Don't want to discuss his reasoning as imo it's irrelevant to the discussion.

@107: I'm not as inclined to read into his words that reactions mean nothing. From what I've seen of his play so far, he's making a lot of bluster but isn't providing reasoning (I'll quote with examples if anyone wants that), so I don't mind that. Don't think he ignored Light completely, he just went off on a tangent himself. Again, without meta I'm inclined to read this as scum, but on this instance I am less sure.

@115: He's being sarcastic, as he usually is.

@132: Kyndy, I really think you're being overdramatic. His vote on you is not due to legit suspicion, he really hasn't formed a case on anyone yet. But you're already getting defensive based on an RVS vote. I get that you may not have noticed it was an RVS vote, but it really is a little bit too defensive for my liking.

Overall, though, I'm a OK with this post. It is defensive, yes, and I don't like the reasoning at points but my instinct leans towards town because of how genuine it feels overall. Kyndy seems to really be trying to contribute, but again, I'm not too sure, I'd like to wait for a reads list before passing further judgement.

~~~~

Responding to Vedith's 132 here as well.

1) My vote is as a response to my current thoughts, not the possibility of future things. If things happen that will change my opinion of who's scummy, I'll change my vote. There's zero point in voting based on future things, as it's impossible to judge things that haven't happened.

2) Would like a little more explanation on why her ISO is weak, please, other than general commentary.

3) Meta is meta, I'll look around yours and her meta a little before commenting on anything else.

This segues on nicely into why I really don't like Vedith's recent postings. After he goes off on how I'm wrong on kyndy (which is fair enough, argument is always good), what seems to surprise me is that he doesn't go after anyone else and instead makes posts like 140 (one-liner on kyndy's case with no reasoning), 142 (responding to a post on theory, little to do with actual game issues like kyndy's argument on him), and 148 (super non-comittal, wants to make the air of contributing without actually doing so). To me, that's an absolute shocker considering how active he has been throughout the game in trying to contribute: I'd venture to say that he could've maybe stated, if only briefly, who his main suspects are. While I can concede that it's relatively early in the game and that he hasn't had the opportunity to fully expand his reads yet given that he's in UK time (which is fair enough if he's working or otherwise), I'm more than a little concerned how even though he's been posting a lot he hasn't been working to push for reads at all. Also, given his trend of posting, he seems to be the type to inform us if he's working on reads, seeing as how he makes multiple short posts during the day and informed me he was readying a response but was busy with work.

To sum, his posts are non-comittal and reactionary, which to me are quite clear scumtells. In light of this, I'll UNVOTE: kyndy101 and VOTE: Vedith for now. As always, if you need further reasoning I'll be willing to analyse his posts, but that needs to be for tomorrow.

~~~~

Regardless, not considering the hydras and Raskolnikov I'll try to form an initial reads list by tomorrow-ish if there's not too much else but here are some really really brief thoughts that come up to me and a more general list based purely on instinct. I'll probably look into NJAC as well with possible links to Vedith if nothing else comes up.

Reads List

Scum (S>W):

Vedith, NJAC, kyndy101 (prior two relatively strong-ish, kyndy slightly less so but not much)

Null(S>T):

Lycan, Hydras + Raskolnikov, light_ganski

Town (S>W):

shadowezz (conftown), superbowl9, Sir Bastion

[kyndy101]

Alright, long post incoming including responses and reads

[light_ganski]

Can't post rn because I'm just going to dinner but will make a post with reads + stuff in a couple of hours

[NJAC]

I mostly agree with Bastion but I want to say that interjecting yourself into an interaction is not always bad. It's also generally true (at least afaik) that keeping information to yourself (besides pr identities and other obvious exceptions) is bad for town, because the more accurate information we have the better. If you have an idea that nobody else has considered you should put it out there. Ofc I also agree that letting interactions happen naturally is also critical, cause you can get reactions/info and all, but I think you need to have a balance between those two sides of it.

Yep. I agree with this^. I was going to comment something on these lines about that. In fact, fencesitting and just playing as spectator is more scummy than interjecting into an interaction between players. But I recognize there are some instances in which is better to not interfere.

What exactly was shadow onto? Sora literally has one rvs post before this. That's like me saying I'm onto something with Raskolnikov rn. Regardless of your alignment, blindly sheeping the IC then claiming there's some kind of substance behind it when there clearly isn't is anti-town.

Well, I obviously thought it was too soon for shadow to be pushing Sora, but I thought he maybe (I specifically said "maybe" because I was not sure) might be onto something given that he addressed a question to Sora after his first RVS post, and given that shadow said he wanted to vote Sora. Look:

Sora - What sort of intentions do you have during RVS?

I sort of want to vote Sora right now, but want to wait to hear more from them first.

So, maybe shadow was getting a gut read or something, maybe based on meta or w/e. Not necessarily having a read from just one single RVS post.

Anyway, we should better ask shadow about it:

@shadow

: Why did you make a question about RVS specifically to Sora instead of asking to others? Why did you say you wanted to vote him? Also, what stopped you from voting him, given that a single vote was harmless at that point?

Combine this with the general lack of detail in his posts (51, 119) and it gives me the feeling that he's flying under the radar despite having the second highest post count. Someone who's that impressionable and makes empty statements (119 is again a prime example) is not someone I want to have around as town.

If you want me to give more detail or elaborate on something just ask. As I said in 119, I was reading Kindy leaning town, but I didn't want to add details because she was being pushed and I wanted to see her defense instead of defend her myself. WRT the naked vote on Sora in 51 I didn't feel the need to add details, but I gave them later on request.

More in another post...

[NJAC]

@superbowl:

Again WRT 154: You seem to make some arguments against Vedith, and you literally say he's your "prime scumspect", yet you vote me. This seems very silly, why exactly am I "the best lynch option"?

Also, there's already a wagon formed on Vedith. If he's your prime scumspect why don't you support that wagon instead of forming a new one.

Pretty inconsistent

[SoraAdvent]

@NJAC: Can you please give reads of some sort? I'd love to see who you consider to be the prime suspect now, if you don't mind.

[NJAC]

@Sora WRT 156:

Why do you feel the need to post a response to Kindy's "case" on Vedith?

It seems to me that you go back and forth sometimes defending him from Kindy's accusations and sometimes supporting her arguments. Your post reads to me as you saying: "he might be scum but he might also not be scum".

You initially supported Bastion's push on Kindy with arguments in 114 like

"I actually both agree and disagree with Sir Bastion that the random RVS unvote is somewhat suspicious"

(so you agree but at the same time disagree? ), and now that the wagon on Vedith is starting to gain some traction you suddenly end up supporting Kindy's push on him.

IDK but to me your post seems as an excuse to opportunistically vote Vedith.

I'm happy with my vote on you.

[NJAC]

@NJAC: Can you please give reads of some sort? I'd love to see who you consider to be the prime suspect now, if you don't mind.

Yep, I was going to give my reads after commenting on some recent posts. A bit of patience please.

Leaning scum: Sora, superbowl.
Null: light, kindy, Lycan, everyone else
Leaning town: Bastian, Vedith, shadow

[NJAC]

@Sora: you apparently was reading me as leaning town according to what you said in 114. How did I go from your town list to your scum list?

[NJAC]

Leaning town: Bastian, Vedith, shadow

Obviously shadow is not "leaning town" but town, just to be clear.

[SoraAdvent]

Apologies for my lack of patience, sorry. I'm fairly tired and it's been a long day, but I wanna respond to 162 before I head to sleep. I'll get to rereading the game sometime soon as well.

1) Well, because it's an analysis of another player that could potentially better strengthen my own reads of both Vedith and Kyndy (particularly Vedith, who I wanted to scrutinize further). If you look at my post, I mention how some of the reasoning is valid, then go on to say that I like the post despite some faults in reasoning, making Kyndy more of a townread for me.

2) Yes, I may be wishy-washy at points in time (which I fully admit) but I honestly don't think it's right to call things too confidently yet, considering how it's still early in the game. But that's fair enough, if it's a tell for you I guess it's fine.

3) Your point about my agree/disagree thing is cherry-picking what I'm actually saying. I clearly spell out in that same section how I think unvoting itself is suspicious (i.e. scum), but then mention explain that given how it's an RVS vote it becomes more understandable (i.e. town).

Kyndy101 - I actually both agree and disagree with Sir Bastion that the random RVS unvote is somewhat suspicious.

The unvote itself shows a little bit of passivity that I think is a bit more mafia-ish than town-ish, a little reticence and hesitation. However, I can also understand that the vote itself was made a little quickly to begin with, as the fact that superbowl was a goon did slip my mind as well - while I definitely don’t agree with the reasoning of retracting an RVS vote based on chance, it’s understandable.

This portion bolded here may help you to understand why I made the argument I did when I did. To address your other point, just because I shifted my vote from Kyndy to Vedith you assume I'm bandwagoning and trying to gain favor, when you're forgetting the other thing that happened during that time - kyndy's post. I explained just now that I don't like some of the reasoning in her post, but I think she's more of a townread now, then voted Vedith because his posts have looked increasingly worse. Whether you accept my reasoning is up to you at this point, but from my point of view you're jumping to conclusions awfully quickly.

At this point I might call a NJAC/Vedith scumteam as an initial accusation, but it's 2am and I'm not thinking straight so I'm gonna finish this and sleep.

PEdit: You were null leaning on town, I've explained one of your scummy actions in that post as well. Reads can change, you know, and I'll explain my reasoning tomorrow, if you don't mind.

[kyndy101]

READS LIST TIIIIME

Scum: Vedith

Null leaning scum: NJAC

Null: Lycanfire, Raskolnikov, hydras

Null leaning town: Light_gansky, Sora

Town: Shaddowez, Sir Bastion, Superbowl9

REASONING

Vedith

: See previous post on Vedith, however recent posts seem townier- possibly just do to increased effort to appear towny.

NJAC

: Starts off the game with an attempt to control the situation and lead the discussion with a question that imo didn't seem very relevant. Sheeping shaddowez b/c he's an IC isn't enough reason to vote someone , and 72 isn't much better. 73 is trying to seem relevant while trying to seem relevant while just digging up the grave of a discussion that died long ago in my mind; I agree with the question offered in 122, and 139 is a good content post. Because of his immediate attempt at controlling the situation early on and continually bringing up points that are dead, I have to say null-scum. His recent post, 159, seems to redirect focus from NJAC voting Sora to why Shaddowez was thinking about it, and in 160 it seems like he's trying to make himself relevant after being accused of flying under the radar.

Lycanfire

: I'm kinda surprised their first post was 86, which apparently referenced an ongoing game. Kind of all over the place and mostly fluff, with long gaps between posts that are 50% sarcasm, 45% fluff, and 5% seriousness. Not extremely scummy, but yet to be proven town.

Light_gansky

: My instinct says town due to reroll, but to analyze posts: not a lot of content, but still contributes by responding to people's posts and questions as well as providing own thoughts in discussion. It feels pretty null and fluffly to me, but nothing scummy so far imo.

Sora

:I like the content in 114 and 156, however I wish there were more posts. Null-town for now.

Sir Bastion

: 80 seems really towny to me- offering up suggestions to shaddowez, offering thoughts on the situation, and although I disagree with the argument he presented me with, he is obviously trying so I respect that. I like his attempt to unify town in 81, by having people offer up timezones and typical times online. 110 makes his argument against me more understandable and justified, which seems pretty towny to me. Good reasoning in 143, even if I don't agree with it. Overall, good posts and good reasoning makes a town player imo.

Superbowl9

: I like the opinion in 40, discussion questions in 53, and in a lot of posts (84, 141, 144, etc etc) offers clarification, more discussion and questions, and insights to other's actions / responses, so I must say that Superbowl9 is town.

Shaddowez

is conftown, so no need to put him here

RESPONSES TO PEOPLE:

@NJAC

139: Well, his posts continued getting worse imo so I included the newer posts. Also, it's the strongest case I could make so early in the game, and it's more so that I had a strong read on him.

@Sora

: Assuming you mean 24, it sounded to me that Vedith was fishing for information that, as town, he wouldn't need imo. So, it seemed scummy to me.

@Superbowl9

: He's my only strongly scum read.



Usually, I have questions for people, but after making this post I'm burnt out and so question time will come later.

[Vedith]

Vedith: See previous post on Vedith, however recent posts seem townier- possibly just do to increased effort to appear towny.

I actually haven't done anything. What's townier about them?
Asking the mod to prod at people to join the game?

[Vedith]

I had to label you as scum for effect of scum hunting, I can't explain why, so lets hope that the flip and night kill makes us forget about this comment tomorrow

Fixed.

[kyndy101]

Vedith: See previous post on Vedith, however recent posts seem townier- possibly just do to increased effort to appear towny.

I actually haven't done anything. What's townier about them?
Asking the mod to prod at people to join the game?

142 and 148 are what I was looking at. They seem to be aimed more for town's benefit.

[shaddowez]

I'll have some reads up in a little while

@Mod

- Shouldn't we have prods and/or replacement requests at this point for the hydras?

[Vedith]

142 and 148 are what I was looking at. They seem to be aimed more for town's benefit.

Okay, 142 could be seen as town (We did it, Reddit!), but explain 148.
That's most of a pointless comment from myself because it has no meaning, what's town about it?

[NJAC]

At this point I might call a NJAC/Vedith scumteam as an initial accusation

Sure, because blatantly defending a scumpartner is such a great strategy for scum .

I've explained one of your scummy actions in that post as well.

Except that you didn't.

Reads can change, you know, and I'll explain my reasoning tomorrow, if you don't mind.

I'll patiently wait for your reasoning.

[lilith2013]

I'll have some reads up in a little while

@Mod

- Shouldn't we have prods and/or replacement requests at this point for the hydras?

I prodded Hebee Inc and HighHopes about 10 hours ago. They have 14 hours left to pick up their respective prods before I begin searching for replacements.