Open 651: Stack the Deck (Game Over)

[light_ganski]

but if i'm such a good lynch and a scumfucker why are you ignoring your gut read and sheeping njac's wagon?

is it because you have no incentive to solve the game?

No, it's because being town, unlike yourself, I have an incentive to ensure that the lynch is

on scum

, and whilst I would very much rather the noose were round your arrogant neck, I am quite prepared to vote for one of your teammates rather than let the decisive wagon fall on a townie, especially considering that there seems very little chance that your scummy butt is dying today. It doesn't particularly matter which order we lynch scum, as long as we lynch all of you so we can win. Playing to my win condition and all that, just like you are.

[light_ganski]

@light: you townread Sora, what is it that you like in her posts? And humour me by pointing to a specific one.

Of course. 220 - him calling out vedith on being anti-town, and actually trying to encourage him to contribute more constructively than the crap he'd put in before that post, rather than just scum reading him and leaving it at that. If Sora was scum, I simply can't see what her incentive would be in trying to stop vedith playing anti-town (as he has been doing all bloody day).

[lilith2013]

Votecount 1.016

Apologies for missing Sir Bastion's unvote fixing that in my last VC.

light_ganski [4]

Lycanfire, shaddowez, kyndy101, NJAC

SoraAdvent [1]

Vedith

NJAC [4]

superbowl9, SoraAdvent, Hebee Inc, light_ganski

Hebee Inc [2]

HighHopes, Raskolnikov

Not Voting [1]

Sir Bastion

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline: (expired on 2016-08-22 01:30:00)

pagetop count: Lilith 4 | light_ganski 3 | Vedith 3 | kyndy101 2 | HighHopes 2 | NJAC 2 | Hebee Inc 1 | shaddowez 1

[Raskolnikov]

Is a heebee lynch actually gonna be impossible?

[Hebee Inc]

I know. I'm just adding it to try to gain supporters. I just want to move light's wagon and see what happens.

*spit*

if you cant see why that was stupid I may need to revisit my read of you.

The NJAC train is still arollin'.

Alternatively Sora or Lycan are good lynches.

[Sir Bastion]

@light: you townread Sora, what is it that you like in her posts? And humour me by pointing to a specific one.

Of course. 220 - him calling out vedith on being anti-town, and actually trying to encourage him to contribute more constructively than the crap he'd put in before that post, rather than just scum reading him and leaving it at that. If Sora was scum, I simply can't see what her incentive would be in trying to stop vedith playing anti-town (as he has been doing all bloody day).

hmm I'm surprised you picked 220. I personally disliked that post overall and the vedith section is all about giving reads, to me thats an easy push for scum to play, set up a town act *hey everybody lets have some reads* push the players that dont play along *Hey XYZ why are you not giving reads! We cant continue until XYZ gives his reads!* and then turn it into a case *XYZ is scummy, they are not contributing to town and playing anti town*

Its specifically a response to Vedith refusing to give a reads list (thats what 209 was) its an overlong paragraph that honestly doesnt make sense both in terms as a response to 209 and also because it reads almost like a list of negative terms. Anti-town, straw-manning, distracting, non-commital, useless with no actual through way. And gives an almost incomprehensible reason why that could be a scum play (no seriously explain to me what "but it makes sense to think you're scum who's deliberately trying to get you/your partners off the heat." actually means?)

followed by another demand for reads.

I mean actually read it:

You're acting in a severely anti-town way. First, you continually refute the current arguments on kyndy and the like, which is fine in and of itself. However, you don't even bother to attack anyone else (your vote is still on kyndy from RVS, for goodness' sake), and you end up just distracting the town while making sure nothing's being done to further the game forward. You use straw man arguments to portray opposing people's arguments as stupid, you respond in posts that appear to contribute and be confident but are hilariously non-commital, and again don't bother pushing the game in any particular direction. I really want to hope that you're just town acting in a manner that's incredibly distracting and, if I may be a little bit blunt, kind of useless, but it makes sense to think you're scum who's deliberately trying to get you/your partners off the heat.

Your multiple posts may suggest you're active, but you're in reality saying nothing at all. You say things and don't back them up with anything other than a hand wave of things like 'The case on the random unvote is weak, and too weak for a vote on her imo. Her "defending herself" I disagree with.', which doesn't explain WHY you disagree at all.

In short, please actually contribute to the town by providing your reads instead of constantly refuting arguments and in general distracting the town.

the bit in italics is the only genuine bit of case there, the rest is hot garbage.


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So i'm going to assume I need to actually show some people why giving out too many reads list are a bad idea and refusing to give them is not scummy


Here is an iso from the mafia thread of a scum hydra player from a game I played (poor term to describe me getting destroyed) just under a year ago named Beardedcat

He was scum in a game with daychat and he wrote over a 140 posts in the pt tracking every players reads.

post 154 sums it up best

Giving out too many reads list throughout a game can lead to this, telling everybody who you think is town and who you think is scum allows scum to get a map of the town

ESPECIALLY if a game can potentially have daychat

and that sort of play destroys town, I mean they absolutely bollocked us from here to the moon. We lost control of the vote by day 2 because scum knew which buttons to press to set player A off on player B


and we can potentially have daychat here.


Thats an extreme example, but you'll find similar processess on a smaller scale.

[kyndy101]

@light: you townread Sora, what is it that you like in her posts? And humour me by pointing to a specific one.

Of course. 220 - him calling out vedith on being anti-town, and actually trying to encourage him to contribute more constructively than the crap he'd put in before that post, rather than just scum reading him and leaving it at that. If Sora was scum, I simply can't see what her incentive would be in trying to stop vedith playing anti-town (as he has been doing all bloody day).

hmm I'm surprised you picked 220. I personally disliked that post overall and the vedith section is all about giving reads, to me thats an easy push for scum to play, set up a town act *hey everybody lets have some reads* push the players that dont play along *Hey XYZ why are you not giving reads! We cant continue until XYZ gives his reads!* and then turn it into a case *XYZ is scummy, they are not contributing to town and playing anti town*

Its specifically a response to Vedith refusing to give a reads list (thats what 209 was) its an overlong paragraph that honestly doesnt make sense both in terms as a response to 209 and also because it reads almost like a list of negative terms. Anti-town, straw-manning, distracting, non-commital, useless with no actual through way. And gives an almost incomprehensible reason why that could be a scum play (no seriously explain to me what "but it makes sense to think you're scum who's deliberately trying to get you/your partners off the heat." actually means?)

followed by another demand for reads.

I mean actually read it:

You're acting in a severely anti-town way. First, you continually refute the current arguments on kyndy and the like, which is fine in and of itself. However, you don't even bother to attack anyone else (your vote is still on kyndy from RVS, for goodness' sake), and you end up just distracting the town while making sure nothing's being done to further the game forward. You use straw man arguments to portray opposing people's arguments as stupid, you respond in posts that appear to contribute and be confident but are hilariously non-commital, and again don't bother pushing the game in any particular direction. I really want to hope that you're just town acting in a manner that's incredibly distracting and, if I may be a little bit blunt, kind of useless, but it makes sense to think you're scum who's deliberately trying to get you/your partners off the heat.

Your multiple posts may suggest you're active, but you're in reality saying nothing at all. You say things and don't back them up with anything other than a hand wave of things like 'The case on the random unvote is weak, and too weak for a vote on her imo. Her "defending herself" I disagree with.', which doesn't explain WHY you disagree at all.

In short, please actually contribute to the town by providing your reads instead of constantly refuting arguments and in general distracting the town.

the bit in italics is the only genuine bit of case there, the rest is hot garbage.


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So i'm going to assume I need to actually show some people why giving out too many reads list are a bad idea and refusing to give them is not scummy


Here is an iso from the mafia thread of a scum hydra player from a game I played (poor term to describe me getting destroyed) just under a year ago named Beardedcat

He was scum in a game with daychat and he wrote over a 140 posts in the pt tracking every players reads.

post 154 sums it up best

Giving out too many reads list throughout a game can lead to this, telling everybody who you think is town and who you think is scum allows scum to get a map of the town

ESPECIALLY if a game can potentially have daychat

and that sort of play destroys town, I mean they absolutely bollocked us from here to the moon. We lost control of the vote by day 2 because scum knew which buttons to press to set player A off on player B


and we can potentially have daychat here.


Thats an extreme example, but you'll find similar processess on a smaller scale.

Oh. Well, the wagon on Sora makes sense now. I didn't think of that D: I forgot the scum could have daytalk; wow. And Sora has been pushing reads lists out of everyone..

But @Sir Bastion, why do you think Sora continued fabricating reads posts as well, even when not asking others for reads?

[kyndy101]

Is a heebee lynch actually gonna be impossible?

I don't think so; no. Heebee is actually pretty townie compared to the other wagons imo

[superbowl9]

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So i'm going to assume I need to actually show some people why giving out too many reads list are a bad idea and refusing to give them is not scummy


Here is an iso from the mafia thread of a scum hydra player from a game I played (poor term to describe me getting destroyed) just under a year ago named Beardedcat

He was scum in a game with daychat and he wrote over a 140 posts in the pt tracking every players reads.

post 154 sums it up best

Giving out too many reads list throughout a game can lead to this, telling everybody who you think is town and who you think is scum allows scum to get a map of the town

ESPECIALLY if a game can potentially have daychat

and that sort of play destroys town, I mean they absolutely bollocked us from here to the moon. We lost control of the vote by day 2 because scum knew which buttons to press to set player A off on player B


and we can potentially have daychat here.


Thats an extreme example, but you'll find similar processess on a smaller scale.

Good point I never thought about that

[kyndy101]

Oh wait, I just reread. I thought you said you would vote her if needed, but now I see you'll explain your read on her when needed.

*backs off after Bastion indicates a change of reads on him*


Hm. NJAC is going back to null-scum.

[kyndy101]

I know. I'm just adding it to try to gain supporters. I just want to move light's wagon and see what happens.

*spit*

if you cant see why that was stupid I may need to revisit my read of you.

Why are you offering two warnings of changing your read on NJAC? Just do it if you're going to XD

[Sir Bastion]

Oh. Well, the wagon on Sora makes sense now. I didn't think of that D: I forgot the scum could have daytalk; wow. And Sora has been pushing reads lists out of everyone..

But @Sir Bastion, why do you think Sora continued fabricating reads posts as well, even when not asking others for reads?

because it's easy whitenoise for scum to play because its practically whitenoise for all players

Its practically why I (wrongly) accused Sora of sitting on your wagon in 262, cause giving out a reads list lets you sit, lets you watch and lets you be town without actually doing anything.

I doubt there isnt a player here who as town hasn't at some point dropped a reads list to avoid a mod prod.

I'm also going to guess quite a few of you when you saw a post with a reads list at the bottom that you went straight to the list first and in a few cases only actually read the post when you're name showed up on the wrong side of the tracks.


Though I will say in this game that role seems to have been swapped with promise posts...perhaps the meta of mafia has changed again.

[superbowl9]

Oh wait, I just reread. I thought you said you would vote her if needed, but now I see you'll explain your read on her when needed.

*backs off after Bastion indicates a change of reads on him*


Hm. NJAC is going back to null-scum.

He's literally been doing this the whole game. This was a big part of my case against him since like page 5.

[Sir Bastion]

I know. I'm just adding it to try to gain supporters. I just want to move light's wagon and see what happens.

*spit*

if you cant see why that was stupid I may need to revisit my read of you.

Why are you offering two warnings of changing your read on NJAC? Just do it if you're going to XD

because I have the patience of a saint and reward effort

[superbowl9]

@NJAC are you still nullreading kyndy?

Now she's kinda leaning scum after her reads on 167.

He literally did it to you here kyndy...

[Raskolnikov]

Okay. I assume no one actually read his ISO when I pointed him out! It feels kind of over-the-top having to case obvscum like this but I guess scum are straight up ignoring and everyone else is just mysteriously blind or to into their 1v1s... Last chance to get this going it looks like.

Town
NJAC
kyndy101

Unreadable
SoraAdvent
superbowl9
Vedith

Null
light_ganski
Raskolnikov
HighHopes
kraska77

Scum
Lycanfire

Pretty much lycan scumread, NJAC and kydney town and rest unreadable. Dunno how you can be undecided on all 3 of those at that point of the game given they were the most involved but whatever, can't read too much into a list of names.

Lycanfyre is scum because he is RVSing really late into the game. I know that this game is unreadable (at least for me) but there is at least something he could have done that wasn't trolly/do nothing. There is a difference between not being in the thread like a majority of these players and posting and reading the thread but not actually solving the game.

[snip]

VOTE: Lycan

This is actually okay, but he never goes back to follow up on it. Voteswitchs and that's it.

Spoiler:

@Vedith: mind responding to my post here, please?

I assume you mean these parts -

1) Regarding the first point: I think you're completely misunderstanding what I'm saying at all. Why would I bother asking about meta not once, but so many times, if I already knew how you played? It'd be a useless waste of time.

- Because you fucked up

2) My statement on the types of post you make are based on your past behaviour. I posted this in 156 as well, which I think sums up my thoughts about how you've posted, and is what I'm referring to when I refer to your posts as such.

- Why would how I am posting all game give me justification for certain posts?

3) I presume that for your third and fourth point you're asking me about me about this post I made here.

- I don't know what my 3rd or 4th point was as I didn't actually do it in points, I made a post.

4) For your next point, I posted my reads before High Hopes did and have modified them only very slightly.

- I didn't say you posted them after, I said they mirror up.

5) How do I defend your vote on Kyndy in any way? I said that you're arguing against me on kyndy back in 156, and that's good.

OK, the vote on you was an RVS vote. He may have forgotten he voted you at this point, though I'm not too sure about that considering he's aware of the votecount. Don't want to discuss his reasoning as imo it's irrelevant to the discussion.

You justify why my vote is there and even call the issue irrelevant.
With your response, it confirms that you saw my vote as an issue and felt it was a scummy action to keep it on Kyndy.

Was there anything else you wanted me to go over on your post?

1) If I knew your meta, you'd see me use it in my case against if you if and when I could - I've stated multiple times that I haven't read it before, hence my need to ask around. I don't get why you think that my posts imply a knowledge of your meta by any means, but that's a semantic issue that I've already explained (and that superbowl has explained far better than I can). When I mention that you 'always act like this', I mean that your actions are consistent with your past behaviour within the game.

2) Because then your actions can be explained as less scummy, as instead they're part of your personality, if you understand what I mean. For example, while I may initially read some of your posts as scummish (relatively short bursts of posting, very reactionary style), upon looking at your past behaviour they can become less so. This is also part of the reason why when I have more time I intend to read up on your meta: if I can determine that you play like this even in your town games, it helps me form a better read of you instead of relying on my own tells (which may or may not be outdated/flat-out wrong)

3) What I meant was the third and fourth lines in post 222, starting from 'This could be' to 'Vedith being Vedith'.

4) You mention that I'm scum in the post, then mentioned that my posts are similar to HighHopes. Since you're placing me under suspicion by calling me scum, I assumed that the reason you said we have similar reads was because I was sheeping him, and that to you is a scumtell. I stated what I did based on this, because I posted my reads before HighHopes had posted and modified them slightly.

Therefore;
If you mentioned that HH and my reads are similar because I copied him, that's not true because I posted first.
If you mentioned that HH and my reads are similar for another reason, why did you do that?

5) I mentioned you were aware of the votecount at the very end. While I say it's an RVS vote and that you may have forgotten about it,

I also mention that you're aware of the votecount

, and thus you have no excuse for not being aware that your vote is on kyndy. To be fair, I did hedge my arguments, and you can criticize me for that.

I think you're misunderstanding what I meant by reasoning. By reasoning, I don't mean the reasoning for. If you take a look at post 97, you mention "As scum, why would she want to give town less options to focus on, and more of a chance to focus her?". I didn't want to discuss this as I thought it wasn't the main point of kyndy's argument, which was that your vote was still on her while you were arguing against it.

All in all though I definitely think we're spinning wheels and I'm leaning town-ish on you right now so I'm not going to pursue this any further. Hopefully I can get the NJAC post up sooner or later, but it's probably gonna be tomorrow at earliest.

Why focus this hard on meta at all in this game? It seems like you're just letting yourself be open to more attacks that way.

Honestly I think you're likely town here and they're likely scum. You are pummeling yourself by giving this weak argument water with some crap meta reason. Meta's can change, and you admit you would find it scummy but "meta".

This does not strike me as TvT at all at the moment.

Basically townreading sora for using caveats and meta to have a weak argument, probably the most analysis of the game from him and it's a weird approach townreading on scumtells. Terrible thing is though how he calls vedith scum and says "this probably isn't TvT" but says absolutely nothing there (nor later).

VOTE: Vedith

Till I catch up a bit more, consider me tunnelling here.

Not caught up but responding to recent posts and judging the interaction as not TvT?

Spoiler:

UNVOTE: Vedith. I'm going to have to swallow my pride and admit that I was completely and totally off on everything in this game so far. My focus over the next couple of days is to just go back and reread the game and focus on the Vedith/NJAC interaction in some detail. At this point I'm not even sure of any of my reads anymore. Before this, I'd like to address a few of the points made against me.

~~~~

Re: Vedith

I want to know your meta before this.

As for why I said it was Vedith being Vedith, I think 95's a perfect example of the type of posts you make.

Scum found.
You want to know my meta, but you imply that you know it already from the type of posts I make.
This could be Vedith not being Vedith, but you have already decided that this is Vedith being Vedith while asking for meta on me.
And you can't say that this is wrong, because you are responding to a comment about me with saying that it's my usual play, just to ignore it (TYhis is what I get from, Vedith being Vedith).

Your reads are basically mirror with High Hopes (Who I haven't decided yet if I think scum or not)

Why did I keep my vote on Kyndy? I wanted to see what scum would use this to their advantage. In 156 he defends me voting Kyndy, in 220 he uses it for an excuse to push me as scum, but in a subtle way.

1) Regarding the first point: I think you're completely misunderstanding what I'm saying at all. Why would I bother asking about meta not once, but so many times, if I already knew how you played? It'd be a useless waste of time.

2) My statement on the types of post you make are based on your past behaviour. I posted this in 156 as well, which I think sums up my thoughts about how you've posted, and is what I'm referring to when I refer to your posts as such.

To sum, his posts are non-comittal and reactionary, which to me are quite clear scumtells.

3) I presume that for your third and fourth point you're asking me about me about this post I made here.

4) For your next point, I posted my reads before High Hopes did and have modified them only very slightly.

5) How do I defend your vote on Kyndy in any way? I said that you're arguing against me on kyndy back in 156, and that's good.

After he goes off on how I'm wrong on kyndy (which is fair enough, argument is always good),

Back here, my vote was on kyndy and yours was on her as well. I don't defend you voting kyndy at all, and even say this in the same post.

His vote on you is not due to legit suspicion, he really hasn't formed a case on anyone yet

. But you're already getting defensive based on an

RVS vote.

I get that you may not have noticed it was an RVS vote, but it really is a little bit too defensive for my liking.

I guess you could interpret this as being supportive of your vote, but my intent was to say your vote was an RVS one and not based in fact, and Kyndy's overreaction to that RVS vote is a little worrying. I don't think I flip on it at all in my later post (220): I mention your vote is an RVS vote twice, and in both cases say that your vote is weak.

~~~~

Re: Sir Bastion

1) Yeah, apologies for my formatting issues. I can't find any way to make it easier to read, apologies. As for posting my train of thought, I have a serious problem with not being able to control what I actually say and get across.

2) I don't think I'm sitting on the kyndy wagon at all. I've been pushing for Vedith over the last couple of posts I've made, with NJAC as a close second. I'm keeping an eye on kyndy without being too commital as I'm watching for how her actions develop over the course of the next few posts. I'm unsure on her recent posts, and I don't want to force a read that I'm not sure on, and even more so now considering what happened when I believed Vedith was right.

3) I think reads are useful as a starting point and can be very helpful in kickstarting the game past RVS mode. I felt the game was already moving past RVS, but needed a little bit of a push to move things along. Knowing what reads people have is actually immensely helpful to see who they're potentially buddying with (in terms of who they're being soft on), but the act of providing reads in themselves can be analysed. From things like what tells they pick up on, to their structure you can really tell a lot about who a person is based on reads. Also they provide a really good discussion over whether a person deserves a town/scum read, and probably most importantly they force you to take a look at the game overall.

~~~~

As of right now doing some initial reading I'd say my initial read on NJAC was definitely wrong, but as I mentioned I'll get back to that later.

This is raising all sorts of red flags for me, smells of scum distancing.

Dismissing both of them as scum on distancing when sora unvotes because of the claim, doesn't bother going into the red flags. Thing is at this hebee either didn't read to the level to see the claim (and is scumreading vedith without having read his posts) or read them and thought this anyway. How he says it implies it's a deep multifaceted judgement too with multiple points which is really hard to believe given the other things. There's no conceivable way heebee is town and could have this conclusion here but only KTS saw this I guess.

[after sora post on vedith]
UNVOTE: VedithFair point, I still like a vedith vote, but if we do this we should do this the right way.

VOTE: NJAC

Nonchalant 180 and moonwalk away from all of it altogether... 0 reason to believe any of those were ever actual reads. Technically can't judge him never pushing any of them in the first place because of the 0 activity I guess (but cmon) but this turn-off reads pure apathetic on top of it.

I know. I'm just adding it to try to gain supporters. I just want to move light's wagon and see what happens.

*spit*

if you cant see why that was stupid I may need to revisit my read of you.

The NJAC train is still arollin'.

Alternatively Sora or Lycan are good lynches.

and this posted after I started this lol
Near the end of the day, fine with every lynch on top of all the above. Complete scum apathy. This is actually absurd now and almost too-scummy-to-be-scum if that was a thing.

Very weak association with lycan (for unvote) but seems to be treating everyone with pretty consistent and equal noncaring. Leaning traitor on this tbh given the attitude and lurkyness; would explain scum not hopping on either if assuming highhopes is town (no one hopping one is probably the one point to hebee's favour atm).
If at the end of this he's still not even a lynch POSSIBILITY I don't even know. ONLY thing that could make you uncomfortable is the somewhat low-content but postbypost this is unredeemable.

[Raskolnikov]

Is a heebee lynch actually gonna be impossible?

I don't think so; no. Heebee is actually pretty townie compared to the other wagons imo

Could also lynch kydney. WTF, how could even be an opinion.

[Raskolnikov]

Realistically speaking there probably (but not necessarily) is scum in light or sora but I'd feel 100% more confident with hebee than on a mixed. Even if you don't see the obvscum and read him as similar to your scumread: think of the downside of whatever you're lynching flipping town vs this.

I'd hammer light if it came down to it because of her earlier play but eh.

[Raskolnikov]

Also sir bastion why the fuck not explain your super secret strong-townread on someone coming to l-2. Waiting for l-1 to get a claim out of them first? Either that or you're dumb I guess; if you have really good reason you should out it now. Technically people can wait until intent but very often nowadays people don't.

What tilts me is how whenever people tease things (secret read reasoning) like this in mafia it always comes out later incredibly mediocre for all the building up and hyping given

[Raskolnikov]

PSA voting who you do want to be lynched when your townread is being run up is probably an idea.

[Sir Bastion]

Also sir bastion why the fuck not explain your super secret strong-townread on someone coming to l-2. Waiting for l-1 to get a claim out of them first? Either that or you're dumb I guess; if you have really good reason you should out it now. Technically people can wait until intent but very often nowadays people don't.

again I have the patience of a saint and reward players who make an effort

[Raskolnikov]

To be honest NJAC encouraging another vote to get bastion townread out could TECHNICALLY be really clever scum wanting a claim in the same way but that's (wanting SB to explain) at least a really good reasoning for his action and overall NJAC's probably town. Not ridiculous like what mr bastion's doing here.

[Sir Bastion]

To be honest NJAC encouraging another vote to get bastion townread out could TECHNICALLY be really clever scum wanting a claim in the same way but that's (wanting SB to explain) at least a really good reasoning for his action and overall NJAC's probably town. Not ridiculous like what mr bastion's doing here.

patience, saint, effort

[Raskolnikov]

@mod can we get a VC?

[lilith2013]

Meep