Newbie 1735 - Banana Split (Game Over!)

[drealmerz7]

I'll save my counter-theories for a non-newbie game.

[copper223]

By all means, it's pretty much established praxis here though and a lot of research has gone into finding the best ways to design and play these setups.

[drealmerz7]

Hmm, I've looked all around as far as I can tell, is there a way to change the # of posts displayed per page?

[goodmorning]

This game will last 2-3 months? Interesting! I thought I had checked a few newbie 9p games and they were 3-5 weeks, maybe I mis-looked. That's a bit longer than I anticipated, but no big deal.

Well, it depends on how long we drag the Days out. They tend to be pretty long in very small and very large games. So if we say 2 weeks for each game day (given possible extensions for replacements and probable 1-day cushions, it evens out), we're looking at a month for 2 Days, which is the quickest Town can win, or 6 weeks for 3 Days, which is the quickest Scum can win.

They don't always go right up to the deadline, but it's close a lot.

In that case, let's move things along...

VOTE: staplertowel.

I'm sure that will be looked favorably upon!

Interesting.

@copper: Oh good, you did the heavy lifting on that one. I was hoping I wouldn't have to.

I'll save my counter-theories for a non-newbie game.

I mean, we can always talk about it postgame.

Hmm, I've looked all around as far as I can tell, is there a way to change the # of posts displayed per page?

You know, I don't think I've ever tried. GIF would probably be able to tell you if that feature exists or if he knows of some workaround.

[JaeReed]

Has anyone here played with anyone here before? I have not.

Anyone never played mafia before?

oh, and, I typed all of this ^ before the game was live/unlocked

I don't see much to have gone on since the game has opened, except some standard RVS voting.

I also hope for a good game~!

Oh, and "he" is okay for me too, no need for "it."

I've played with goodmorning and Accountant before, and currently in a game with copper.

Kinda peeved I keep drawing town.
VOTE: goodmorning
Serious vote.

@gm do you always play this cautiously in newbies?

[oncilla]

Has anyone here played with anyone here before? I have not.

Anyone never played mafia before?

oh, and, I typed all of this ^ before the game was live/unlocked

I don't see much to have gone on since the game has opened, except some standard RVS voting.

I also hope for a good game~!

Oh, and "he" is okay for me too, no need for "it."

I've played with goodmorning and Accountant before, and currently in a game with copper.

Kinda peeved I keep drawing town.

VOTE: goodmorning
Serious vote.

@gm do you always play this cautiously in newbies?

This smells like trying too hard to be seen townie.

Unvote:

Vote: JaeReed

[Accountant]

@oncilla: Do you think that JaeReed seriously believes that statement will make them seem townie?

@drealmerz: copper gave a pretty correct math analysis of why no lynching is bad. On an abstract level, the idea is that town exerts influence on the game through lynching - they have the majority so they control the Day while mafia controls the Night. It's strange for them to give up that advantage.

[Astyanaxx]

Am i the only real new player in this ? I expected at least another one to share my burden.

@oncilla: Do you think that JaeReed seriously believes that statement will make them seem townie?

I agree, for what it's worth.

[copper223]

Don't knock yourself down, your opinions are as important as everyone else's.

Ofc if you happened to draw scum I guess it sucks to be you and I'm coming for ya.

[StaplerTowel]

Hey guys, I just got home. I see everyone's already picking the guy with the funniest name. We're off to a wonderful start.

Just need to take care of work and I'll be back in a few hours, hopefully having read all this lovely wall of text.


Anyways, I'm a long time lurker but a first time player. Ever. I've played a few ranked EM games but that was a long time ago and I imagine chat is different from forum around here. Other than that, I've tried hosting a few games myself, but they weren't really as serious and I was more into hosting just for the flavor. So feel free to lambaste the new guy as it were.

Vote: copper223

See you in a few hours.

[Astyanaxx]

Don't knock yourself down, your opinions are as important as everyone else's.

Ofc if you happened to draw scum I guess it sucks to be you and I'm coming for ya. Don't knock yourself down, your opinions are as important as everyone else's. Ofc if you happened to draw scum I guess it sucks to be you and I'm coming for ya.

If i was scum i'm pretty sure i would be unmasked after less than 48 hours. I'm a terrible liar, but you only have my word for it. Actually, it's also a very different timing and thought process than in a live one, so maybe i'm better at it. Or worse, we'll see. Anyway for now i don't have much to share with you guys ; i've skimmed through some of the other games and i'm impressed with how little people seem to work with when trying to figure out who's scum. I don't feel that in this domain i have a lot to share but i'll try to be as active as possible to not be a deadweight in the debates.

[StaplerTowel]

Btw I'm countervoting based on solely the first 2 posts. I haven't read a thing yet.

[JaeReed]

@oncilla: Do you think that JaeReed seriously believes that statement will make them seem townie?

I agree, for what it's worth.

You agree with Accountant, or you agree with oncilla?

[drealmerz7]

@drealmerz: copper gave a pretty correct math analysis of why no lynching is bad. On an abstract level, the idea is that town exerts influence on the game through lynching - they have the majority so they control the Day while mafia controls the Night. It's strange for them to give up that advantage.

Yep, and I'm certainly aware of the standard position and I generally agree with it (forget the math, it essentially it gives mafia a N0 before taking a chance on removing them, giving them a "leg-up.") However, there are times where I still think it can be advantageous to consider on D1 regardless of what the hard numbers look like. This game is not one of them, so probably best to drop it and keep things straight.

I mean, unless someone DOES want to consider it? (:

[Accountant]

No Lynch is most useful during MyLo situations. For example, suppose you had 4 people alive, 1 of whom is scum. If you lynched a townie, and the scum kills a townie, then they will endgame the other townie the next day(because then town:scum ratio becomes 1:1, so scum controls the lynch majority). In this case, town's chances of winning are 1/4. However, if they no lynch, and scum kills a townie, then you have 3 people alive, 1 of whom is scum. In this case, town's chances of winning are 1/3. So in this scenario it's optimal to no lynch.

[drealmerz7]

unvote

VOTE: accountant

for continuing to go on about no-lynch even though it seems to have been established that there's no point in discussing it in relation to this game - trying to keep us from discussing something useful?

[Accountant]

This game isn't just about finding scum - it also acts as a gateway or welcome game into MafiaScum. As an experienced player, I have a duty to help explain game theory and game concepts to newcomers. The concept of No Lynch, especially when it is and isn't viable, is an important part of game theory. Therefore, it's only natural that I'd explain it to everyone. This does not stymie proper discussion of the game like you implied in post #40("trying to keep us from discussing something useful"). That's because it's possible to have multiple threads of conversation in a single game - it's not as though if I'm talking about No Lynch, that means everyone else has to drop what they're doing and also talk about No Lynch. It would only stymie real discussion if it was long, spammy or obnoxious to the point where players find it hard to get to the bits where actual gameplay takes place.

[Astyanaxx]

@oncilla: Do you think that JaeReed seriously believes that statement will make them seem townie?

I agree, for what it's worth.

You agree with Accountant, or you agree with oncilla?

Accountant, sorry, should have made that clearer. I don't think something that obvious would help anyone clear his name.

[drealmerz7]

Here's some more theory on D1 no-lynch that works against the basic stance:

If no-lynch D1 generally benefits mafia, then it is more likely that a mafia-aligned player will want no-lynch on D1, right? However, if they know everyone generally views a D1 no-lynch as a mafia advantage, that then makes mafia LESS likely to want a no-lynch on D1 because it could show them as being scummy/out them as mafia. So, a townie poses the idea of no-lynch to see if they can get any mafia to agree with them and out them as possible mafia. Or, mafia poses the idea and then turns around and says "if I were mafia I'd not pose that idea because it's seen as scummy, I'm town and was trying to see if I could get any mafia to go for it." and round and round we go

I think if it is known that there is a cop in the game, no-lynch also becomes more viable, and even moreso if the cop potentially had a N0 investigation.

There are many scenarios that I can see where it becomes more viable on D1 than the generally held view allows for, which is why I take issue with the generally held view, as I find it often closes avenues of potential and that ultimately hurts town. Heck, I've played a game where everyone was town and the only way to win was for town to no-lynch (otherwise the violence kept perpetuating more violence, whereas if peace was achieved, well then, peace was achieved.) In case anyone is curious, night-kills happened because there was a doctor who was a quack (they weren't aware) and every target they tried to save they actually killed.

Anyway, I do worry all of this is not appropriate for a newbie game because it makes things more confusing, so, sorry if it did so (which was not what I wanted because I'm town and the last thing I want to do is make it more confusing for new players or derail conversation about a topic that isn't pertinent to the current game.) - but, yes, since it is a learning gateway game, I suppose this is a place for all of this too.

[Accountant]

Nobody sane poses the idea of D1 nolynch because everyone would laugh at them regardless of alignment(unless they're clearly inexperienced and don't know why it's bad, but in that case they'd just be shut down).

While it's true that NL gives more time for a cop to investigate it also gives mafia more chances to kill them. Also, at the end of Day 1 we don't know if there's a cop and we sure as hell aren't going to ask for cop claims to know whether or not to No Lynch :3

Heck, I've played a game where everyone was town and the only way to win was for town to no-lynch (otherwise the violence kept perpetuating more violence, whereas if peace was achieved, well then, peace was achieved.) In case anyone is curious, night-kills happened because there was a doctor who was a quack (they weren't aware) and every target they tried to save they actually killed.

That's a bastard game, which means it has different rules(nightkills coming from doctor, for instance). This game isn't bastard.

[drealmerz7]

Nobody sane poses the idea of D1 nolynch because everyone would laugh at them regardless of alignment(unless they're clearly inexperienced and don't know why it's bad, but in that case they'd just be shut down).

I disagree and this is a fallacy argument "nobody sane poses the idea of D1 nolynch." Also, I wasn't even close to suggesting that we try and find out if we have a cop. Again, to me, none of this no-lynch talk applies to this game.

yep, my vote stays on you

and yes, after I made that post I realized I should have specified that it was a bastard game (obviously)

[Accountant]

Why is it a fallacy argument? I don't see how my reasoning is fallacious. No Lynch is something mafia want, so someome who advocates for No Lynch would be laughed at by town, and by mafia pretending to be laughing town.

Now, suppose I was absolutely wrong about all of this and your position is correct. Why does this make me scum as opposed to a bad mafia player?

[copper223]

You are mainly arguing on different levels.

@Accountant
I think drealmer understands and accepts our position in this game that we are going to lynch D1, he is now arguing about the benefit of NL in the general case and how he believes it is underestimated (which may well be the case, it's not a strategy I am ever fond of for instance), I buy that you explaining here is NAI and shows that you're doing your best as an SE regardless of what you rolled.

@dreamler
Trying to use NL as a reaction test doesn't work very well because the only players you will end up catching here are new players that would naturally value as much time as possible to try get used to the game and come up with a good lynch (as town) or that are scared of being caught (as scum), and the two states of mind are not easily distinguishable by the answer they would give to such a test, as you mention yourself it's also full of WIFOM regardless of how one answers.

I also don't think that Accountant's motive for staying on the topic was to shut down other avenues of discussion, his reply that as an SE he is trying to teach what he believes to be the best strategy to newer players is more plausible (I also already get the feeling that it's not going to change your mind ).

@All
For the other newer players, this is the right approach though, think about what we post and why we do so and if that hints at us being town or scum or in this case what I would view as mostly NAI (not alignment indicative) character traits from both sides, i.e. trying to teach how to play the game because he is an SE from Accountant and being a stubborn guy with his own ideas from dreamler.

[Accountant]

I think drealmer understands and accepts our position in this game that we are going to lynch D1, he is now arguing about the benefit of NL in the general case and how he believes it is underestimated (which may well be the case, it's not a strategy I am ever fond of for instance),

drealmer, do you think copper was on the mark in interpreting your mindset here?

[drealmerz7]

And I'm just trying to push buttons and see how people respond/react and if I can gain reads from it, which is how I think I play the strongest.
I'll drop it now rather than continuing on, as, I know my viewpoint is not the one generally held.
oh, and it is a fallacy because you attack the person, not the argument, trying to discredit the arguer, not the argument "only insane people make that argument" - I don't want to be seen as insane, so I don't make the argument - not cool!

it's drealmer, btw :þ

fun fun