Newbie 1735 - Banana Split (Game Over!)

[drealmerz7]

I think drealmer understands and accepts our position in this game that we are going to lynch D1, he is now arguing about the benefit of NL in the general case and how he believes it is underestimated (which may well be the case, it's not a strategy I am ever fond of for instance),

drealmer, do you think copper was on the mark in interpreting your mindset here?

yes absolutely - the only thing I might change to make it even more accurate is "underestimated" into "underutilized", although I do view it is underestimated too - To me, each game is a case by case basis, and while general theories may prove reasonable a majority of the time, simply discarding an option because of that is a bad idea, imo, and any player saying that they can definitively say "this is a case where this doesn't apply" simply because they're applying a general theory strikes me as an erroneous way of thinking.

[Accountant]

It's not a fallacy because the fact that only insane people would seriously advocate No Lynching Day 1 is a point in favor of my reasoning to ignore the possibility that it might happen. Nobody here is insane, so there's no need to consider the question of them doing something that only an insane person would do.

[Accountant]

I think drealmer understands and accepts our position in this game that we are going to lynch D1, he is now arguing about the benefit of NL in the general case and how he believes it is underestimated (which may well be the case, it's not a strategy I am ever fond of for instance),

drealmer, do you think copper was on the mark in interpreting your mindset here?

yes absolutely - the only thing I might change to make it even more accurate is "underestimated" into "underutilized", although I do view it is underestimated too - To me, each game is a case by case basis, and while general theories may prove reasonable a majority of the time, simply discarding an option because of that is a bad idea, imo, and any player saying that they can definitively say "this is a case where this doesn't apply" simply because they're applying a general theory strikes me as an erroneous way of thinking.

If you acknowledge that your arguments for No Lynching Day 1 do not apply and are not meant to apply to this game, and that you accept the position that we are going to lynch D1 this game, then isn't it hypocritical to criticize me for "none of this no-lynch talk applies to this game"(a quote from your post 45)?

[goodmorning]

@gm do you always play this cautiously in newbies?

No. Usually I play

even more cautiously.

@oncilla: Do you think that JaeReed seriously believes that statement will make them seem townie?

@drealmerz: copper gave a pretty correct math analysis of why no lynching is bad. On an abstract level, the idea is that town exerts influence on the game through lynching - they have the majority so they control the Day while mafia controls the Night. It's strange for them to give up that advantage.

Hmmmmmmmmm.

Am i the only real new player in this ? I expected at least another one to share my burden.

@oncilla: Do you think that JaeReed seriously believes that statement will make them seem townie?

I agree, for what it's worth.

Looks like Stapler is too.

Any other input?

If i was scum i'm pretty sure i would be unmasked after less than 48 hours. I'm a terrible liar, but you only have my word for it. Actually, it's also a very different timing and thought process than in a live one, so maybe i'm better at it. Or worse, we'll see. Anyway for now i don't have much to share with you guys ; i've skimmed through some of the other games and i'm impressed with how little people seem to work with when trying to figure out who's scum. I don't feel that in this domain i have a lot to share but i'll try to be as active as possible to not be a deadweight in the debates.

It's actually surprisingly easy when you get the hang of it.

I'd like you to read through and look for anything that feels weird to you. Not necessarily scummy, just weird.

Btw I'm countervoting based on solely the first 2 posts. I haven't read a thing yet.

It looks like this game should proceed at a decent pace; I'd advise you to try not to get too far behind because that gets hard pretty quickly.

This game isn't just about finding scum - it also acts as a gateway or welcome game into MafiaScum. As an experienced player, I have a duty to help explain game theory and game concepts to newcomers. The concept of No Lynch, especially when it is and isn't viable, is an important part of game theory. Therefore, it's only natural that I'd explain it to everyone. This does not stymie proper discussion of the game like you implied in post #40("trying to keep us from discussing something useful"). That's because it's possible to have multiple threads of conversation in a single game - it's not as though if I'm talking about No Lynch, that means everyone else has to drop what they're doing and also talk about No Lynch. It would only stymie real discussion if it was long, spammy or obnoxious to the point where players find it hard to get to the bits where actual gameplay takes place.

Given that
A. copper already explained all of that
B. dreal already indicated that he's aware D1 NL isn't optimal strategy
C. I already said we could continue NL discussion postgame
D. you're not talking about anything else at this point -

I'm satisfied with the conclusion: namely, that this is scummy behaviour from you.

I don't think something that obvious would help anyone clear his name.

You'd be surprised.

RE: NL discussion: POSTGAME, PLEASE.

[Accountant]

GM: Why aren't you voting me, then?

[goodmorning]

I'm pretty sure I'm voting you already.

[goodmorning]

Yup! 9

--

If anyone's wondering I have ~3 scumreads at this point.

No real townreads yet but we'll get there.

[Accountant]

Oh, right, it's a carry on from RVS.

Why is me not talking about anything else at that point indicative of scummy behavior?

[Accountant]

I don't think GM is actually reading me as scum due to me talking about NL. I think she's actually scumreading me because of my artificial tone.

[goodmorning]

Spoiler: Unofficial VC

Stapler (L-3) - Accountant, copper
Accountant (L-3) - goodmorning, dreal
dreal (L-4) - Ast
goodmorning (L-4) - Jae
Jae (L-4) - oncilla
copper (L-4) - Stapler

p-edit: Because there's a surprising amount else to talk about.

Are you being tonally different than you were last time we played?

[StaplerTowel]

Okay I'm back. Been reading for the past hour. I feel like an idiot noob, but trying my best here:

To reiterate, I've never truly played a single game and I'm basically as new as how Astyanaxx describes. Though, I wouldn't put it past him to say that just to be looked over. I dunno, maybe its cos I've been burned a few times by obfuscating newbs in EM in the past. Don't mean to presume, but coming out to describe yourself as bumbling and foreign from the getgo is a bit on the nose, doncha think? Just a curious thing to say

So. Let's go with that: Unvote.

Vote Astyanaxx

.

drealmerz' vote for me was warranted. But dude, you gotta stop being so verbose. I almost fell asleep just trying to sift through your madness. I agree with copperz on his previous quip, however I'm a little conflicted about em. I guess he would have no true reason for bandwagoning against me from the getgo, other than because rvs. And his latest post seems logical enough. The same goes for Accountant. So, hopefully I'm reading this right and thinking that the 3 of you are just trying really hard to paint Town.

@goodmorning, does this mean everything drealmerz started with his nonsense NL theorycrafting can be deemed irrelevant to this case?

[Accountant]

Spoiler: Unofficial VC

Stapler (L-3) - Accountant, copper
Accountant (L-3) - goodmorning, dreal
dreal (L-4) - Ast
goodmorning (L-4) - Jae
Jae (L-4) - oncilla
copper (L-4) - Stapler

p-edit: Because there's a surprising amount else to talk about.

Are you being tonally different than you were last time we played?

No - and the last time we played, I was scum.

What issues were there that were on the table that I skipped over or dodged in favor of speaking about NL?

[goodmorning]

Okay I'm back. Been reading for the past hour. I feel like an idiot noob, but trying my best here:

To reiterate, I've never truly played a single game and I'm basically as new as how Astyanaxx describes. Though, I wouldn't put it past him to say that just to be looked over. I dunno, maybe its cos I've been burned a few times by obfuscating newbs in EM in the past. Don't mean to presume, but coming out to describe yourself as bumbling and foreign from the getgo is a bit on the nose, doncha think? Just a curious thing to say

I mean, to be fair, you hadn't showed up at that point.

But yes, that is a thing.

@goodmorning, does this mean everything drealmerz started with his nonsense NL theorycrafting can be deemed irrelevant to this case?

It's not alignment-indicative in and of itself. The reasons why dreal and Accountant are continuing the conversation could be, though.

@Accountant: I could find only one game between us; in it, you were Town and I was Scum (N1683). I thought there was another one, though. Which are you referring to?

Where did I say there were issues? There are posts which contain info. There are no other issues yet.

[Astyanaxx]

@Stapler That's just a way to explain my future behaviour, which will probably be more passive than the average player. I'm trying to get a grip of this form of Mafia play and people would probably have wondered why i'm not participating as much as the other if i didn't justify it some way or another. If i was to defend myself mid-Day 1 with "sorry i'm new" i feel like it would have made me very suspicious. I can see how that would make a fitting stance for a mafia player trying to go under the radar, so i understand you being wary of me.

As for the NL conversation, i don't have much to add, although i'm not quite sure why it dragged that long.

[JaeReed]

Nobody here is insane, so there's no need to consider the question of them doing something that only an insane person would do.

ahahahahahaha you think? Definitely not in a newbie game though.

[Accountant]

@GM: Oh man, I confused you with farside. Never mind.

Okay, what info that I miss and not talk about?

[Astyanaxx]

@Jaereed I don't see why you guys keep bringing up that the game is supposedly newbie while only me and Stapler (which apparently lurked for a while and seems familiar enough with it) are confirmed ones. Just treat it like an average game.

[Accountant]

@Jaereed I don't see why you guys keep bringing up that the game is supposedly newbie while only me and Stapler (which apparently lurked for a while and seems familiar enough with it) are confirmed ones. Just treat it like an average game.

What do you mean that they're repeatedly bringing it up?

[StaplerTowel]

The reasons why dreal and Accountant are continuing the conversation could be, though.

This is exactly why I asked. I can't help but feel at the back of my mind that your vote may have some merit, if only for this. Thanks to dreal's babbling though, I cannot discern if Accountant legit wanted to discuss theory or if he just felt really offended and needed to iron things out.

Leaning a bit on Accountant as well.

@Stapler That's just a way to explain my future behaviour, which will probably be more passive than the average player. I'm trying to get a grip of this form of Mafia play and people would probably have wondered why i'm not participating as much as the other if i didn't justify it some way or another. If i was to defend myself mid-Day 1 with "sorry i'm new" i feel like it would have made me very suspicious. I can see how that would make a fitting stance for a mafia player trying to go under the radar, so i understand you being wary of me.

As for the NL conversation, i don't have much to add, although i'm not quite sure why it dragged that long.

I know. It's just. Saying all that and nothing else adds a little caveat to it, you know? Like "please im new dont hurt me" and then nothing else but non-comittal agreements (not bandwagonning). I mean, I'm as new as what you're purporting but I'm trying my best here. At best I might just be overthinking, at worse you've played this before and you think this is a unique in for you.

[Accountant]

Asty's declaration of newbness isn't scummy unless he's using it to excuse away scummy actions.

[Astyanaxx]

@Jaereed I don't see why you guys keep bringing up that the game is supposedly newbie while only me and Stapler (which apparently lurked for a while and seems familiar enough with it) are confirmed ones. Just treat it like an average game.

What do you mean that they're repeatedly bringing it up?

Yeah maybe that's a bad way of saying it. I mean that i don't feel like having a completely new player and a new but familiarized player is enough to make the game "newbie". There's no point generalizing into "newbies should do that" and "new players can do insane things" when you're basically just talking about me and Stapler.

@Stapler I'm not gonna force myself if i don't have anything substantial to add. I do have in mind that i should read and express any doubts or thoughts that occurs to me, but right now i feel like i have to spectate a bit to get the hang of it and familiarize myself with the way people play this game ; i don't want to be completely silent on the other hand because i might as well not have joined the game in that case. I'm trying to find a balance right now.

Also the only susbstantial thing that happened is the NL discussion and as i've said, i don't have much to add in the debate.

[copper223]

@Asty
We are still waiting for Kuroshira to join and oncilla said he knows how to play mafia but is unfamiliar with mafiascum, as far as newbies go this is one looks pretty balanced.

Why is it relevant how Jae treats the game wrt to there being more or less new players?

[copper223]

Jae/GM:
How many games have you played with each other?

[Accountant]

Why'd you pick Jae and GM specifically?

[copper223]

Because GM already answered about you.