Newbie 1735 - Banana Split (Game Over!)

[copper223]

also excuse me, when did I ignore DDD?

Where you fail to mention anything whatsoever about Oncilla in your catch-up (the previous owner of the DDD slot) including discussing a scum-read on him from one of your scum-leans that you say is coasting, you find time to mention every other player.

[JaeReed]

And then while he was pushing it JaeReed didn't go after Asty himself at all, and he still hasn't.

Not sure I really think Jae has to be Scum atm, but I hadn't noticed that. That's kind of a decent point, and I'd like to see Jae's response.

The original point on Asty was just something I thought should be poked at. It wasn't an actual scumread. GM not poking at it made it likely that GM was scum and Asty her buddy, because scum will deliberately ignore scummy stuff their partner does all the time if town isn't picking up on it.

So yeah, need to reread to see where my reads are at when I'm not tunneling the IC based off what could very well just be my own personal bias. Asty has still done, like, nothing, but I'm not sure whether that's due to newb!scum not knowing how to fake getting reads, or newb!town not knowing how to get reads.

Anyway, anything else you wanted me to respond to out of Lion's stuff?

I think copper is either town seeing how bs Lion's "case" is, or he's scum trying to buddy me because he knows I can hardcore effort if I feel I need to. FWIW I had the same thought as copper with regards to both Lion and DDD, but I'm also biased in that regard.

[copper223]

I omitted the first quote as it is nonsensical and does not require an answer, read what I am saying again in the off chance you are town and we can discuss the points that have merit.

The claim that I addressed Jae as if he was misguided town is just factually incorrect. I was rebutting an incorrect argument, which is something that should be done whether it's scum or town making the argument. And about everything else you said in that sentence was wrong on theory.

Pointing out the argument is fallacious is step one of the process, step two, which you completely omit, is to say why you think scum_Jae is more likely to come up with that explanation and that's what you omit, my deduction is the likeliest reason why is you already know their alignment and are taking it as a given so of course you don't need to speculate about that.

I like that you're very concerned about that accusation not sticking, as opposed to elaborating on your thought process, makes it more likely I am onto something.

Illuminate me on why that's wrong "on theory".

[copper223]

I think copper is either town seeing how bs Lion's "case" is, or he's scum trying to buddy me because he knows I can hardcore effort if I feel I need to. FWIW I had the same thought as copper with regards to both Lion and DDD, but I'm also biased in that regard.

Yes this is what I was expecting from you, I don't WK as scum unless there is a very good reason to do so, I've said so before where you can verify.

[JaeReed]

Me: I think copper is town or scum.

Much deduce. So amaze.

Still rereading, I just realized how stupid I sounded lmao.

I wanted to push GM because all of my ICs that I've been around D1 for have been scum. GM ignored Asty so I thought GM could be scum and therefore buddies with Asty. I can't see scum motivation for Asty to buddy GM in their first post now that I look back on it, but I can see scum motivation for GM to selectively ignore Asty and make a softball "are you buddying me omg" thing if he's town while also ignoring the points she could have addressed in order to set him up as her partner. I can also see Asty as scum buddying the IC and SE's.

Basically, my conclusion so far is GM & Asty aren't scum together based on Asty's actions, mostly. I don't think newb!scum comes out of the gate like that with their partner now that I'm thinking more about Asty's motivations for doing shit. GM could either be trying to help a newb with the "look back over the thread and point out stuff" or be setting Asty up for a fall if she flips. Keeping in mind that GM's motivations for doing so could be both, and are not mutually exclusive.

[JaeReed]

I was going to try to reaction test the slots anyway cause being replacements they are more likely to be scum (let's not start on this GM)

Can I start on this?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=39739

Scum Newbies Player replacement rate is 59.7%
Town Newbies Player replacement rate is 45.8%

I dun think that's a large enough gap to draw conclusions from. (SE and IC replacement rate is roughly the same for alignment)

[copper223]

I am not drawing conclusions from it, I said a reaction test was worth it and that it made it more likely those slots were scum ceteris paribus (which you just illustrated) and no, I have no interest in debating the statistics behind it since it has never helped me convince the rest of town.

[GuyInFreezer]

VC 1.04

Accountant (1):

drealmerz7

drealmerz7 (1):

Astyanaxx

Astyanaxx (1):

StaplerTowel

JaeReed (1):

GuiltyLion

GuiltyLion (1):

copper223

copper223 (2):

goodmorning, Debonair Danny DiPietro

Not Voting:

JaeReed, Accountant

With

9

votes,

5

votes to lynch.

The deadline is in (expired on 2016-09-02 15:38:07).

Astyanaxx is being replaced for failing to pick up the prod.
drealmerz7 has been prodded.

[Accountant]

Jae, why aren't you voting GM?

[JaeReed]

cuz I'm lazy and haven't reread fully. Also I'm not sure GM is even scum. She's certainly not clear, but she's not my main concern atm. My biggest SR atm is actually either GL or DDD. They'd have to be suicidal to do what they did just then as scumbuddies but I can guarantee at least one of them is scum. The issue lies in working out which one.

[Accountant]

Why is at least one of them scum? Do you agree with copper's reasoning?

[JaeReed]

Idunno what copper's reasoning is in full, if I'm being honest. I am pre trashed atm. All I know is one of the people who came in like "lel this person is obvscum" when I haven't dropped huge tells either way is 100% scum. In order to glean more from that gut feel I need to actually read the thread, which I have been putting off because I am lazy. Plus I don't really care about being pushed unless I actually feel I"m at threat of being mislynched. Because I'm sick.to.death.of.drawing.FUCKING.TOWN. but enough about that.

One of them is scum because A) the case is shit and B) one of them sheeped it where the rest sat back like "wait a second...?"

I wouldn't put it past copper to buddy the fuck outta me tbh. Like him saying that I wouldn't call the scumteam on pg 5 is bs as you know because iraon did the same shit and got townread for it. HOWEVER the person who pointed that out I think was town weren't they? idunno I'm not looking that up atm but that's my thought process there. Basically, what he pointed out was not a towntell but I think him pointing it out may have been a towntell?

[JaeReed]

One of them is scum because A) the case is shit and B) one of them sheeped it where the rest sat back like "wait a second...?"

To elaborate on this. No sane buddy would sheep that shit case immediately.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

So I'm scum because I didn't provide exact in-depth breakdowns of my thoughts on Dreal and GM? There's no possible town values for withholding partial information? If you're not detailing every exact read you have in complete detail then you're scum? Pretty sure that's an absurd standard and if you held everyone to it equally you'd have eight scum reads, nine if you decided to evaluate yourself.

This is a misrep of what he is saying.

Disagree.

Other points of contention are town-reading Drealmer for 104

(or omitting the reason for why he is town-reading him but mentioning 104)

, town-reading GM again

without much substance

And I'd argue the bold are the real points he's bringing, if he cared to evaluate my thought process on those issues he would've asked for clarification, instead he attacked.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Pointing out the argument is fallacious is step one of the process, step two, which you completely omit, is to say why you think scum_Jae is more likely to come up with that explanation and that's what you omit, my deduction is the likeliest reason why is you already know their alignment and are taking it as a given so of course you don't need to speculate about that. I like that you're very concerned about that accusation not sticking, as opposed to elaborating on your thought process, makes it more likely I am onto something.

No, it's not

the

process, it's

your

process and not everyone plays the game the same way, you frickin' robot.

[copper223]

@Jae
That's a pretty lame approach to this game if that's what you're doing.

There is a difference between the statement: calling the scum-team on page five is a town-tell and

JaeReed

calling the scum-team on page five is a town-tell (because this is how he behaved as scum), I also have never played with Iraon so I don't know who the "we" is that you are addressing.

That's the point though, there was no direct case sheep from DDD to GL, the two of them magically converged onto you, one making a questionable case and the other addressing you as if you were town and then voting you at the end of the catch-up "after checking the vote distribution" and not saying anything about the other player that made the case, that is just not normal town behavior.

I considered the case where it's easier to see that you are scum from an outside perspective and they both landed on you after reading the threat and the rest is just coincidence but I that's not what it looks like.

[copper223]

No, it's not the process, it's your process and not everyone plays the game the same way, you frickin' robot.

Show me more about how you are trying to understand my point of view (also that statement once again only makes sense for copper town, copper scum would just be selling BS).

I explained why I posted in the way I did (it was a good opportunity to reaction test), I then explained what I did not like about what you wrote and I think it's scummy, I also did try to understand your thought process re. 227, you don't seem in a hurry to cooperate.

Regarding your latest, that's the process of any sane human being that is not randomly throwing darts when choosing who is scum, how the "frick" are you supposed to decide if you don't analyze the possible motivations for why someone is doing something, what that something is and if it's "right" or "wrong" provided such a statement can be even made is irrelevant without the motivation for why they would more likely do it as scum and not as town.

[GuyInFreezer]

Dragonfire replaces Astyanaxx.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I explained why I posted in the way I did (it was a good opportunity to reaction test), I then explained what I did not like about what you wrote and I think it's scummy, I also did try to understand your thought process re. 227, you don't seem in a hurry to cooperate.

Why would I be interested in cooperating with you at this point? I believe you attacked me unjustly and you continue to lie about my behavior; from my perspective you have no interest in the truth.

[copper223]

Why would I be interested in cooperating with you at this point? I believe you attacked me unjustly and you continue to lie about my behavior; from my perspective you have no interest in the truth.

Assuming town it's in your interest to cooperate (in the sense it was implied) because if you think I am scum I'll likely trip up sooner or later while you just have to say the truth.

It's also pretty disingenuous of you to call me out for "attacking you before listening" during a reaction test but then claiming it's fine for you to do the same because of a 1 post "belief".

Where am I lying, and I remind you that the definition of a lie implies knowledge that I am aware of doing so?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Pointing out the argument is fallacious is step one of the process, step two, which you completely omit, is to say why you think scum_Jae is more likely to come up with that explanation and that's what you omit, my deduction is the likeliest reason why is you already know their alignment and are taking it as a given so of course you don't need to speculate about that.

It's also pretty disingenuous of you to call me out for "attacking you before listening" during

a reaction test

but then claiming it's fine for you to do

the same

because of a 1 post "belief".

Busted. My first real post in the game is clearly not intended to be a serious case on anyone, it was a series of things that caught my eye to show my thought process, current thoughts on the state of the game and provide interaction points. And copper, like anyone with eyes and brain, knows that, as you can see him acknowledge in 244. But just a handful of posts ago he was pretending like it was some big sin that I didn't provide lengthy follow-up on one of the points I made WHEN THAT CLEARLY WASN'T THE POINT OF MY POST. He's pretending like my initial post was something it was clearly not to try and score points.

[goodmorning]

w h a t

It's symbolic. I want time to think about things before I place my vote again.

booooooooo

--

I really want to rebut 224 but it's not for me!

And then while he was pushing it JaeReed didn't go after Asty himself at all, and he still hasn't.

Not sure I really think Jae has to be Scum atm, but I hadn't noticed that. That's kind of a decent point, and I'd like to see Jae's response.

The original point on Asty was just something I thought should be poked at. It wasn't an actual scumread. GM not poking at it made it likely that GM was scum and Asty her buddy, because scum will deliberately ignore scummy stuff their partner does all the time if town isn't picking up on it.

Right, but you didn't really poke at the stick to see if it was a snake. You just picked it up and poked me with it.

Asty has still done, like, nothing, but I'm not sure whether that's due to newb!scum not knowing how to fake getting reads, or newb!town not knowing how to get reads.

He could also be busy or have forgotten about this game.

Anyway, anything else you wanted me to respond to out of Lion's stuff?

Nope, that was it. Lion may want you to respond though.

I think copper is either town seeing how bs Lion's "case" is, or he's scum trying to buddy me because he knows I can hardcore effort if I feel I need to. FWIW I had the same thought as copper with regards to both Lion and DDD, but I'm also biased in that regard.

Scum rarely take the exact same stance on the game. Also, I have similar reads to theirs atm; we can't all three be Scum.

GM could either be trying to help a newb with the "look back over the thread and point out stuff"

That's pretty much my default instruction for struggling Newbs early D1 so NAI.

--

Show me more about how you are trying to understand my point of view (also that statement once again only makes sense for copper town, copper scum would just be selling BS).

This sentence pretty much epitomizes why I'm voting for copper (who, by the way, still hasn't asked me to explain...).

p-edit: I don't think that's actually what he meant

[copper223]

@DDD
I don't even understand what point you are trying to make.

My problem with your first post, once again, is that the facts you state (Jae's 24 being a good post, his latest at the time being a fallacy, [post]104 given as a reason for town-reading Drealmer) are disconnected with the reads you give at the end.

That is a problem because instead of "following your thought process" like you claim was intended, it makes me do the opposite and think you are making shit up.

[copper223]

EBWOP:
Jae's 29 being a good vote, his latest at the time being a fallacy, 104 given as a reason for town-reading Drealmer.

[copper223]

This sentence pretty much epitomizes why I'm voting for copper (who, by the way, still hasn't asked me to explain...).

I did start a post a few times with something along the lines of: GM should get a move on explaining her read or this is becoming more likely to be scum fence-sitting and waiting to see where the wind blows, but then I reminded myself to be patient and not force it until I had a strong reason to believe that's what was happening.

Why does the post you quoted make you think I am scum?