Newbie 1735 - Banana Split (Game Over!)

[goodmorning]

@copper:
1. "Not necessarily scummy" and "not necessarily Scum" are two very different phrases.
2. Fine. "This book has well-fleshed-out characters and so is likely to be good" is the same thing as "books with poorly-fleshed-out characters are unlikely to be good." And, for emphasis,

we use the specific to inform the general.

3. Again, my previous statement was mathematically correct.
4. Facts can totally lie. Ever take a statistics class?

@DDD: I'm not sure I've ever found it to be efficacious but I equally wouldn't be surprised if it was true here.

p-edit: I have never once seen a Townie, not even the newbiest of Newbs, tell me how Town he was as often as you do.

[Accountant]

Dragon, what do you think about copper?

[copper223]

You claim that everyone pushing you is scum trying to misrep or fuck with you, but there are only two scum and more than two people who are pushing you. Out of [me, GM, DDD] alone, at least one has to be town by brute force. How can it be that we're all misrepping you?

What a silly point, because town misreps town all the time.

I made a case on DDD that seemed legit to me, he may have interpreted it as scum trying to lynch him and is the kind of player that once he gets cased for reasons he believes are bad (which is a purely subjective standpoint) is hardly ever going to change his mind and will ignore the other player (which makes him pretty bad at mafia), can we both be town, sure, is it likely, that's what I am trying to find out.

GM may think that inserting WIFOM, talking about being town and me according to her POV misrepping her (cause she has problems with logic) means I am scum, again how likely this scenario is, is what I have to find out.

My starting point here is that one of you is scum, I actually don't believe it's 2.

[goodmorning]

Where is Dragon, actually?

Also, Stapler and dreal need prodding.

--

p-edit: I don't remember saying you were misrepping me specifically. I don't think that. I think you were misrepping the English language.

[Accountant]

I think it's way more likely that you're scum than that two town players both decided to misrep you at the same time.

[goodmorning]

"Misrep" doesn't even look like a real word anymore.

[copper223]

1. "Not necessarily scummy" and "not necessarily Scum" are two very different phrases.

Okay, it's true that I was interpreting it as the latter instead of the former and it does change the deduction chain.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Yoh're right. I want to get rid of you.

DDD, stop talking about debunked tells and come squeeze copper.

Won't help; game will only progress if/when dreal, ST, GL, Jae, and Dragon show back up. I'm interested in what I need to do to convince them to vote copper and only they can tell me that. And the more we post the longer it takes and harder it is for them to get back in the game.

[GuyInFreezer]

VC 1.05

Accountant (2):

drealmerz7, copper223

Dragonfire (1):

StaplerTowel

JaeReed (1):

GuiltyLion

copper223 (3):

goodmorning, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Accountant

Not Voting:

JaeReed, Dragonfire

With

9

votes,

5

votes to lynch.

The deadline is in (expired on 2016-09-02 15:38:07).

StaplerTowel has been prodded.
drealmerz7 is being replaced for failing to pick up the prod.

[copper223]

@GM
Fine, when you bring in likely-hoods instead of thinking true/false propositions (which would have applied with the scum statement) your logic holds.

I still have a problem with your starting point though, you said "opportunism is not necessarily scummy", in reply to "I don't think he is scum because he is not being opportunistic", that is some sort of rebuttal only if you assume it's equally likely or more so for town to be opportunistic (is that the case you are making?), otherwise it would be like me saying "scum-claiming is not necessarily scummy", which may well be true as a generalization, say if we all decide to do so as a joke pre-game, but it still significantly increases the chances of the player scum claiming being scum in the general case.

[GuiltyLion]

hi guys, I'll bring more content tonight - my other active games have sucked up the little time I have had for mafia in the past day or so

[Dragonfire]

Hey everyone!

I thought your name was familiar. Hi!

Do I know you from somewhere? Sorry if this comes across as rude, but I don't really remember playing with you. You might have been in a Micro game with me where I replaced out Day 1 due to stress and RL events. If so, then hello again.

inb4 amished.

Did this one leak out or do we still keep it amongst ourselves in the cool kid club? I scratched my chin over that as well; it doesn't reach the level of critical assessment that I'd usually demand but when I think about it more there's not a good weird that you'd mention, it's almost certainly setting the table for exactly what the Amished tell was found to catch.

Ast was in my initial "good votes" list, I think this solidly locks Dragonfire in it. Scum-copper is still a better vote for now though.

I've heard people talking about Amished tells in a previous game, but wasn't entirely sure what they were. Are you scumreading me because I called Asty's posts "weird"? If so, that's a rather odd reason to scumread someone. To be absolutely honest, when I first messaged GiF with my request to replace Asty, I ISO'd him to see what he'd posted, and some of his earlier posts made me cringe. I'm not sure if you're confusing "weird" with "scummy"; by "weird" I meant "odd" or "strange" rather than "scummy".

P -> Q by itself isn't an obvious statement at all so you need to justify that first.

Leaning town - Accountant, drealmerz, copper, Stapler

Why stapler?

I did an ISO of his posts and they gave me towny vibes. If you want specifics I'll go back and look through some of what he said, but from memory they just felt kinda genuine, as if they weren't forced or fabricated.

It has and it's mostly debunked at this point.

I think it's more weird that Dragonfire would drop suspicion just because of a replacement.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, can you clarify please?

Dragon, what do you think about copper?

Leaning town, again it's mostly gut and I do like some of the posts / arguments he's made.

[Accountant]

I would like to hear more about your read on stapler, so I'll take you up on that

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I've heard people talking about Amished tells in a previous game, but wasn't entirely sure what they were. Are you scumreading me because I called Asty's posts "weird"? If so, that's a rather odd reason to scumread someone. To be absolutely honest, when I first messaged GiF with my request to replace Asty, I ISO'd him to see what he'd posted, and some of his earlier posts made me cringe. I'm not sure if you're confusing "weird" with "scummy"; by "weird" I meant "odd" or "strange" rather than "scummy".

I did slightly scumread DDD's predecessor oncilla based on gut feelings, but I should probably put that aside since he has been replaced.

After all

, my own predecessor said some quite weird things

Bold is mine for emphasis; when you said "after all" you're drawing a parallel between oncilla's behavior and that of Asty and it isn't a positive one. Furthermore, I'm certainly not some hardliner who pretends every post has to be super serious and only focused on the game but calling your predecessor's posts "weird" is a little too game related for me to believe it was just casual, pointless chit-chat.

[Dragonfire]

I would like to hear more about your read on stapler, so I'll take you up on that

Okay, here are two of his posts that gave me towny vibes:

Hey guys, I just got home. I see everyone's already picking the guy with the funniest name. We're off to a wonderful start.

Just need to take care of work and I'll be back in a few hours, hopefully having read all this lovely wall of text.


Anyways, I'm a long time lurker but a first time player. Ever. I've played a few ranked EM games but that was a long time ago and I imagine chat is different from forum around here. Other than that, I've tried hosting a few games myself, but they weren't really as serious and I was more into hosting just for the flavor. So feel free to lambaste the new guy as it were.

Vote: copper223

See you in a few hours.

Most newbie scum, upon checking in for the first time and seeing they are at L-2 in RVS, would panic, or start accusing the people who voted for them. For a first-timer, Stapler is remarkably calm and cool about the whole thing, which makes me feel as if he is Town. Also from someone who has also played at EM (but doesn't anymore since I dislike the style of it) I understand how different it is from this type of Mafia. I'd expect a scum who's also an EM player to be much more vocal and accusatory, but maybe that's just me stereotyping EM players.

Whether or not you agree that there was any kind of serious conversation going on before you dropped that joke, it doesn't excuse the fact that it IS a joke, and a really non-sequitur one at that. I was actually stunned by how late that kind of post was because that's usually the kind of joke you make during an RVS, so then I thought you were just trying to sarcastically prove a point that the NL convo was as fruity and over the top as this joke, but no. Apparently you really did mean to play a straight joke and expected us to accept it as nothing.

Possibility 1: You made an inquiry towards Jae, got bored waiting for 33 minutes of nothing, and decided to further develop your persona as verbosely established (something which you were warned against doing btw because of how counter intuitive it is) by making jokes.

Possibility 2: You made the joke on purpose. I mean even if the playstyle of all 11 normal games over wherever were different from how this one was played, you would know that making that kind of post in that moment was highly inappropriate. So I dunno...a gambit? Or possibly a distraction or deflection? I can't possibly be the only person who's thinking this.

I also like his analysis of drealmerz's joke. I don't think a newbie scum would want to draw this much attention to themselves by over-analysing minor pieces of evidence. While I personally think the joke was just a poorly-placed joke in itself, and not alignment-indicative, I see this behaviour as eager, over-analytical town, who is trying hard to find scum by analysing the motivation behind posts.

So that's it, not much but like I said before, it's the vibes and gut feeling I get from these posts which are making me lean town on Stapler.

[Dragonfire]

I did slightly scumread DDD's predecessor oncilla based on gut feelings, but I should probably put that aside since he has been replaced.

After all

, my own predecessor said some quite weird things

Bold is mine for emphasis; when you said "after all" you're drawing a parallel between oncilla's behavior and that of Asty and it isn't a positive one. Furthermore, I'm certainly not some hardliner who pretends every post has to be super serious and only focused on the game but calling your predecessor's posts "weird" is a little too game related for me to believe it was just casual, pointless chit-chat.

I wasn't actually suggesting that oncilla and Asty played in a similar or parallel way at all, my reference to Asty was simply to illustrate my point that one's predecessor's actions/posts should not influence how I read their replacement (to a certain extent of course, depending on what said predecessor has done/said). And I'll stand by the statement that I found Asty's posts weird. I know now that they came from town, but still, they do look weird to me. Call that a scumtell if you like, but it's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.

[goodmorning]

Hey everyone!

I thought your name was familiar. Hi!

Do I know you from somewhere? Sorry if this comes across as rude, but I don't really remember playing with you. You might have been in a Micro game with me where I replaced out Day 1 due to stress and RL events. If so, then hello again.

I was the mod of said Micro!

It has and it's mostly debunked at this point.

I think it's more weird that Dragonfire would drop suspicion just because of a replacement.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, can you clarify please?

If you think oncilla's posts were weird, why drop suspicion just because of a replacement?

[Accountant]

Dragonfire, are the weirdness of Asty's posts important or relevant in your mind?

[GuiltyLion]

Sure that's one possible motivation if I am scum, if I am town I also want them to resolve their argument if I am town-reading them because I want to form a town circle and focus on the more likely scum candidates, either way I am advancing the game and you accused me of coasting, are you retracting that in favor of me advancing a scum agenda now?

tbh this is a good point, normally I assume someone trying to jump in to resolve debates/arguments is scummy, but I can see how from a town!perspective then settling what you perceive as a TvT would be arguably game-advancing.

I'll give you that Jae seem to be sticking to their read excluding a lot of what is otherwise happening which is a bit suspect.

That is not what Jae said, their point was GM was showing a double standard and the conclusion

(which for sure is a stretch)

they claim to have come to was Asty is GM's likely buddy and that's why she is softballing him

The bold looks to me like you can understand my reasons for thinking Jae's push on GM looks fake. Why did you jump in and accuse me of being scum if you can see things I pointed out as being true?

[GuiltyLion]

I wanted to push GM because all of my ICs that I've been around D1 for have been scum

. GM ignored Asty so I thought GM could be scum and therefore buddies with Asty.

I can't see scum motivation for Asty to buddy GM in their first post now that I look back on it

, but I can see scum motivation for GM to selectively ignore Asty and make a softball "are you buddying me omg" thing if he's town while also ignoring the points she could have addressed in order to set him up as her partner.

I can also see Asty as scum buddying the IC and SE's

.

Basically, my conclusion so far is GM & Asty aren't scum together based on Asty's actions, mostly

. I don't think newb!scum comes out of the gate like that with their partner now that I'm thinking more about Asty's motivations for doing shit. GM could either be trying to help a newb with the "look back over the thread and point out stuff" or be setting Asty up for a fall if she flips. Keeping in mind that GM's motivations for doing so could be both, and are not mutually exclusive.

lol so:
a) First bolded sentence is pretty clearly an admission that you were operating under an assumption that gm is scum rather than genuinely trying to sort her

b) Now you've reversed tack from "GM/Asty partners" to "GM/Asty not on the same team". Why?

c) the underlined is a contradiction literally in the same paragraph, like this is just so clearly fake

[GuiltyLion]

1. Why are you voting me and not JaeReed if that's the case?

2. What makes him very likely to be town in your opinion?

Oh, he's voting JaeReed? Too bad, my townread on Jae is stronger than my urge to sheep. I still want to vote you though, because the arguments against you are good and I love pushing wagons.

Guilty is town due to personal experience playing with him as well as general tone. ScumLion also has no incentive to push Jae(if they were going to side with one of GM vs Jae, it'd be easier to side with Jae and push the IC).

this post weirds me out, like first I'm Accountant's strongest townread and that's why he's voting copper (despite me not voting copper), but then his townread on Jae is stronger than his willingness to sheep me. and it generally reads kinda fake, like the way you'd craft a response as scum when you get caught in an inconsistency.

I have been scum with Accountant before so I feel like I could see him as scum making this kind of statement about my meta to conveniently townread me. What did you mean by "general tone", can you elaborate on that?

[Accountant]

If I was scum I'd just say I was sheeping GM, it would explain why I voted copper straight after she expressed disappointment that I unvoted. By general tone I mean that it looks like you're not blending in and going for a list of standard reads + one oddball read to look town, like you usually do as scum. Or rather, your oddball read(Jae) looks genuine instead of something thrown in to make it look like you're not blending in.

[GuiltyLion]

at the more I'm convinced of my reads the more I'm going to actively push them given available time,

in this case my reads strengthened during the reaction test

and after my wagon started, but that has nothing to do with people suspecting me as you try to imply.

so at the time of the reaction test, as I'm understanding it, your reads were GL + DDD scum, but at the time of this post you're voting Accountant.

Which reads strengthened and based on what posts?

[JaeReed]

I wanted to push GM because all of my ICs that I've been around D1 for have been scum

. GM ignored Asty so I thought GM could be scum and therefore buddies with Asty.

I can't see scum motivation for Asty to buddy GM in their first post now that I look back on it

, but I can see scum motivation for GM to selectively ignore Asty and make a softball "are you buddying me omg" thing if he's town while also ignoring the points she could have addressed in order to set him up as her partner.

I can also see Asty as scum buddying the IC and SE's

.

Basically, my conclusion so far is GM & Asty aren't scum together based on Asty's actions, mostly

. I don't think newb!scum comes out of the gate like that with their partner now that I'm thinking more about Asty's motivations for doing shit. GM could either be trying to help a newb with the "look back over the thread and point out stuff" or be setting Asty up for a fall if she flips. Keeping in mind that GM's motivations for doing so could be both, and are not mutually exclusive.

lol so:
a) First bolded sentence is pretty clearly an admission that you were operating under an assumption that gm is scum rather than genuinely trying to sort her

b) Now you've reversed tack from "GM/Asty partners" to "GM/Asty not on the same team". Why?

c) the underlined is a contradiction literally in the same paragraph, like this is just so clearly fake

a) No that's my reasoning for pushing GM and trying to sort her early.

b) I explained the GM/Asty partners thing. It was GM selectively not pressuring Asty. When I looked back over it I realized Asty would have literally had to make a post with no other intention than "hi scum buddy!" which is a pretty stupid conclusion to draw there. So not on the same team. In fact, I explained this in my second paragraph.

c) The underlined is not a contradiction? Earlier in the paragraph I'm talking about them being buddies, later in the paragraph I'm talking about Asty potentially being scum on an individual basis.

You're not reading my posts. You're not legitimately trying to sort me, and I know that you are

not

this bad as town.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

I plan to get to this game later tonight but I wasn't going to let that bs slide. That right there? THAT is actual misrep.

[GuiltyLion]

Yoh're right. I want to get rid of you.

DDD, stop talking about debunked tells and come squeeze copper.

Won't help; game will only progress if/when dreal, ST, GL, Jae, and Dragon show back up. I'm interested in what I need to do to convince them to vote copper and only they can tell me that. And the more we post the longer it takes and harder it is for them to get back in the game.

I'd rather you vote JaeReed before I vote copper

P-edit: holy mother of beetlejuice