Newbie 1735 - Banana Split (Game Over!)

[goodmorning]

Anyway, what I'm asking is what exactly was the reaction test? Or, if you didn't do one, what were you going to do? Or are you doing one now (in which case, idgi)?

I give it 100% to mind gamer.

The reaction test was calling the Oncilla replacement scum and seeing how they'd react, I'd hoped GIF would replace him with a newbie as well.

Once GL posted his catch-up it morphed (although here it's not just a reaction test, it's more of an over the top scumread) to doing the same to him.

Once DDD posted, the possible connection between the two slots jumped up to me so I continued in the same vein including him as well.

Everything after the accountant vote and read request is not a reaction test anymore, it's me trying to figure DDD out and after that the players on my wagon.

OK, so break down what you think their reactions were for me. How did each of them react? How did you expect them to react if Town? If Scum? Does your test apply to the other players in the game? If so, how do you think we all reacted? How did you expect us to react if Town? If Scum?

Both. Reading back knowing what I know now, his posts look a bit more concerning than I originally felt they were, and yours are just somehow lacking (though I did like your answer ^ so...)

What do you mean by "knowing what [you] know now"? Why would that make Asty's posts scummier?

Jae's apparent motivations, the replacement, the actions of various others. It changes the way I interpret them.

His whole case is built on bad interpretations & expectations of how people think and act

I agree.

He did the same in the game 2.5 years ago and was Town then, but I'd really expect him to have improved by now.

[Dragonfire]

Did he say that? He probably confused GL with someone else or thought GL was voting for you, as I'm not sure why he'd say this as scum. Coming from someone as experienced as him, it's unlikely he'd make up a BS reason like this as scum - it's something I'd expect from a newbie. So he was probably mistaken.

I'm sure that he was, but would he be more likely to make that mistake as scum inventing his GL read or as town when he claims GL is his strongest town-read and he had previously argued with him about the merits of the Jae wagon (the player GL was actually voting for)?

Even if he was scum faking reads, if he'd previously argued with GL about the merits of the Jae wagon, then he'd already know GL suspected Jae, making it a moot point. I really don't think it is alignment indicative, just a simple mistake.

I'm kinda concerned that your play appears to have completely shifted from well-thought out cases and analysis to one-sentence answers and an absolute lack of explanation. Why is it not what a reaction test looks like? If you want to get me to vote copper, you're gonna need to bring some evidence in to convince me he's scum.

The reason for this is because I have

nobody to explain to

. DDD and GM are on the same page as me, GL seems to understand why I want to kill copper, copper isn't going to be persuaded into voting himself - why should I put effort into convincing some hypothetical nobody?

But if you want reasons why you should vote copper:

- he is not trying to figure out who is scum. he's just making up stuff. that's why he keeps throwing frivolous accusations that get rebutted time and time again to the exhaustion of everyone involved.

- because he's not interested in participating in the game, pushing wagons or anything like that unless it's convenient to him, makes him look good or to rebut a wagon that's threatening him.

- because no matter copper's alignment, he's going to be 10x more helpful when he's at L-1 rather than wallfighting to cover up his lack of usefulness.

I think you have tunnel vision. I've seen numerous posts from copper which look a) towny, b) helpful and c) attempting to figure out who is scum. Since I joined later than you guys, I've had somewhat of a detached perspective and been able to observe happenings from an unbiased viewpoint. I don't see why scum-copper would randomly accuse people out of nowhere, so I believe him when he claims he was reaction testing. Your first point implies that he was lying about the reaction test. I guess he might be more helpful when he's at L-1, but I'd personally rather wait for Marian (and Stapler and GL, wherever they are) to catch up and present their viewpoints. Fresh minds might be just what this situation needs.

[copper223]

OK, so break down what you think their reactions were for me. How did each of them react? How did you expect them to react if Town? If Scum? Does your test apply to the other players in the game? If so, how do you think we all reacted? How did you expect us to react if Town? If Scum?

Fair enough

1. GL did not react, no conclusion to be drawn other than that's what I would also do in his shoes regardless of alignment.

I was hoping for a newbie to replace and either try to buddy super hard or immediately OMGUS or a combination of the above if they were scum or to quickly lose respect for my posting and call me bad as town, it's a play on their expectations of more experienced players.

2. With DDD I was hoping that stressing he was part of a team of two would cause him to violently deny or totally ignore that part if they are scum together but GL explicitly asking me about that point later on makes me doubt they are the actual team.

His reaction was to OMGUS me, I thought that was scum indicative together with the rest of his posting being haphazard at best, but he later OMGUSes dragon as well and has shown a strong amount of confbias in the way that he phrases his posts so now I'm trying to decide if I'm up again a VI or just scum brazenly pushing.

3. I wanted Jae's reaction as well, Jae would know that's not my natural posting, as town I would expect him to recognize that and either make sure we really agreed on GL or be paranoid about me buddying them, as scum I would expect them to nervously fence sit waiting to see what the heck I was doing, and they have given me mixed signals.

4. For everyone else, I was curious in a general sense but did not have prior expectations going into it, that's a bit arrogant looking back but I don't usually get pushed early in games (so I did not consider people pouncing on me for it), the fact both you and Accountant jumped on may turn out to be the more important reaction.

[copper223]

He did the same in the game 2.5 years ago and was Town then, but I'd really expect him to have improved by now.

I have been playing mafia since the mid 1990s...

[copper223]

Even if he was scum faking reads, if he'd previously argued with GL about the merits of the Jae wagon, then he'd already know GL suspected Jae, making it a moot point. I really don't think it is alignment indicative, just a simple mistake.

Sure but I did not question him on who GL suspected (which I am pretty sure he would know as both scum and town if asked), I asked him why he joined my wagon, and bear in mind that's the second vote in a row that he makes there and the first time nobody questioned him on it so scum there is not expecting any push-back, to which he replied he was sheeping his strongest town-read, so I then asked him who that was (to which he replied GL) and only then did the fact that GL was voting Jae come up.

[copper223]

I'm also very interested in what others will say when they catch-up now.

[Accountant]

to which he replied he was sheeping his strongest town-read

No I didn't.

Everything that I want to say has been said. Besides that, I'm just sheeping my strongest townread.

This quote makes it clear that I was voting copper due to the arguments that people have laid out against him. Sheeping GL is one point, but it's not the main one like copper is sneakily trying to represent it as.

[GuyInFreezer]

StaplerTowel has requested to be replaced. Searching for one.

[drealmerz7]

Hey all, I've been super super super busy all week. Usually when I'm busy I can at least read a bit and post a bit, but, just haven't been able to. I'm sorry! I should have something for you all in the next day or 2.

[copper223]

Dreal: PM GIF cause in theory you have been replaced.

MaidMarian replaces drealmerz7.

The relevant point there is whether Accountant forgetting who GL is voting when he says he is his strongest town-read is AI, so that's what I focused on, not whether Accountant's reasons for joining the wagon were scummy, where an omission would have indeed been a misrep, besides this:

Everything that I want to say has been said

was in reply to me asking if he still thought I was coasting as he stated the first time he voted (because that argument was getting progressively more BS for town to think of as valid) or if he had new reasons for voting me (which I would have liked to hear) so Accountant's quote doesn't make his motives as transparent as he is sneakily trying to imply.

[Accountant]

was in reply to me asking if he still thought I was coasting as he stated the first time he voted

No it wasn't.

[copper223]

If you have a new reason for voting me, I'm all ears.

Everything that I want to say has been said. Besides that, I'm just sheeping my strongest townread.

There you go folks, judge yourselves.

[Accountant]

Yeah, precisely. It was in respond to you asking what reasons I have for voting you.

[Dragonfire]

His reaction was to OMGUS me, I thought that was scum indicative together with the rest of his posting being haphazard at best, but he later OMGUSes dragon as well and has shown a strong amount of confbias in the way that he phrases his posts so now I'm trying to decide if I'm up again a VI or just scum brazenly pushing.

Where did he OMGUS me? I never voted him, and he never voted me. In fact, I never actually said he was suspicious, just that his predecessor's posts gave me bad gut feelings.

Apart from this, I like your explanation of the reaction test. It seems fairly legit. I've done reaction tests myself in the past, and most of them have been completely open-ended; I had no idea how the person would react and wanted to see whether their reaction looked scummy or town-y.

Even if he was scum faking reads, if he'd previously argued with GL about the merits of the Jae wagon, then he'd already know GL suspected Jae, making it a moot point. I really don't think it is alignment indicative, just a simple mistake.

Sure but I did not question him on who GL suspected (which I am pretty sure he would know as both scum and town if asked), I asked him why he joined my wagon, and bear in mind that's the second vote in a row that he makes there and the first time nobody questioned him on it so scum there is not expecting any push-back, to which he replied he was sheeping his strongest town-read, so I then asked him who that was (to which he replied GL) and only then did the fact that GL was voting Jae come up.

My point remains the same. As both scum and town, he made the mistake of thinking that GL suspected you. I don't see a particularly scummy side to it, actually, since a player as experienced as him wouldn't just make something up on the spot - he'd read the thread carefully before making his posts, to avoid slipping up and being called out. Which is why I think such a mistake is NAI, and his admission that he was "sheeping" is something that a townie, not a scum, would do. Scum would never openly admit to sheeping - oh wait, now I'm just going down WIFOM lane. Anyway, I don't think that post makes him scum.

Hey all, I've been super super super busy all week. Usually when I'm busy I can at least read a bit and post a bit, but, just haven't been able to. I'm sorry! I should have something for you all in the next day or 2.

Sorry, but you appear to have been replaced

Speaking of replacements, with Stapler's request to be replaced that makes five people who've posted at all being replaced, and about three or four who failed to post. Do most games have this much replacing? The two I've played before had little to no replacing taking place.

[Accountant]

Newbie games tend to have a ton of replacements.

[Dragonfire]

Newbie games tend to have a ton of replacements.

In my first game, only two people got replaced, for failing to pick up Role PMs. In my second one, two people who hadn't posted much replaced out, but nobody else. I guess different games have different activity levels.

[copper223]

Where did he OMGUS me? I never voted him, and he never voted me. In fact, I never actually said he was suspicious, just that his predecessor's posts gave me bad gut feelings.

You and I seem to be the only ones to have brought his predecessor's actions into question as possibly suspicious and he is scum-reading both of us, it makes it more likely that's an important part of what he is basing his reads off of.

Noted for the rest, I'd also like a few sets of new eyes to take a look at the thread, and yeah some newbies are pretty bad as far as replacements goes but this is one of the worst in recent memory.

[Dragonfire]

Where did he OMGUS me? I never voted him, and he never voted me. In fact, I never actually said he was suspicious, just that his predecessor's posts gave me bad gut feelings.

You and I seem to be the only ones to have brought his predecessor's actions into question as possibly suspicious and he is scum-reading both of us, it makes it more likely that's an important part of what he is basing his reads off of.

Noted for the rest, I'd also like a few sets of new eyes to take a look at the thread, and yeah some newbies are pretty bad as far as replacements goes but this is one of the worst in recent memory.

Oh right, thanks for clarifying. Yes, it does look suspicious, but as I said before with regards to Accountant, would someone as experienced as DDD base his reads on people who suspected his predecessor, if he was scum? Again, this is getting WIFOM-y so I'd better stop.

[Accountant]

Copper is determined to spin an accidental mistake into something more than it is. He's scum. You should lynch him.

[copper223]

Copper is determined to spin an accidental mistake into something more than it is. He's scum. You should lynch him.

You are the one pushing a narrative, what were you saying about scum needing to peddle one while town doesn't?

I am engaging the rest of the player-list to see what they think.

@Dragon
That's why I think DDD might be town, not scum.

[Accountant]

Copper is determined to spin an accidental mistake into something more than it is. He's scum. You should lynch him.

You are the one pushing a narrative, what were you saying about scum needing to peddle one while town doesn't?

I am engaging the rest of the player-list to see what they think.

@Dragon
That's why I think DDD might be town, not scum.

that's absolutely wrong

both town and scum peddle narratives

scum peddle fake narratives, town peddle real ones

[copper223]

that's

absolutely

wrong

let's stop right here, you are already full of it, I'd have a lot to say about who is completely useless in this game if you are just town frothing at the mouth.

both town and scum peddle narratives

scum peddle fake narratives, town peddle real ones

This is different from the nonsense you were saying when being flippant.

Town tries to solve the game, that includes giving their own interpretation of what is going on based on a set of assumptions they are making that they should try as much as possible to explain (we could call it a true narrative in this sense).

Scum, among other things, tries to fake that process (which we could call a false narrative).

Your approach now is to push your own (crazy wrt to my read) interpretation as "absolutely" true while my position is: here's what I based my assumptions on and that's why I think this, tell me what you guys think.

Your approach is scummier (because it's easier for you to make everything up) and far less productive.

[Accountant]

Why did you highlight absolutely?

Your approach now is to push your own (crazy wrt to my read) interpretation as "absolutely" true while my position is: here's what I based my assumptions on and that's why I think this, tell me what you guys think.

Since when did I claim my reads were the word of god?

[copper223]

Because using absolutely in this game is nonsense.

We are going around in circles here, I want to read what the rest of the players that have been inactive (whoever they may be) think of our back and forth and our arguments.

DDD was right on one thing at least and that's when he said that spamming the thread at this point is just going to make it harder for them to get into the game.

[Accountant]

Because using absolutely in this game is nonsense.

Quick question: are you a native English speaker?