Newbie 1735 - Banana Split (Game Over!)

[copper223]

@Iron
Fair enough.

[goodmorning]

Opened the game linked, saw a VT claim at the start of the ISO, checked the roles to make sure it was not done as scum, closed the thread.

What I have been browsing is his recent posting onsite and he is being less rude here than elsewhere.

Because of course that's the most important thing.

Take a look at the way he actually interacted in that game: he PROVIDED EXPLANATIONS and ASKED QUESTIONS and was GENERALLY NOT COMPLETELY USELESS.

I don't like talking about my "strongest" townreads, I know that a lot of players think readslists are useful but IMO the information they give scum is more valuable than the information they give town.

Have we not had this argument yet?

Okay everyone, ironstove clearly isn't interested in helping to contribute to this game. He's either scum who needs rope or

reluctant town who needs vote pressure to convince him to participate

. Either way, we should all vote him.

VOTE: ironstove

also this feels to me a lot like jumping off of one mislynch and onto another

there's no need for "vote pressure" at this stage of D1, we have 500+ posts already and ~3 days until deadline

I was totally on board with you, thinking "am I just sort of townreading Accountant because of copper?" until you posted this.

I kind of want to vote Dragon now but not really explain it.

--

@ironstove: Hi! Please explain the Accountant vote and also catch up ASAP.

--

p-edit: i'm not actively trying to lynch dragon atm though

^^^(but ytf did he comment on it, eh?)

Stop attempting to buddy me.

Do you see the ^ arrows there? CONTEXT IS YOUR FRIEND!

[Accountant]

It's clear that ironstove is a toxic player, so he's useless to town. Maybe if his reads were accurate, but they're not.

I suggest lynching copper or Dragon. I don't think GL should be scumreading me for townreading him; that makes no sense.

[GuiltyLion]

@GM re:argument about townreads - I normally think of you as a cryptic/reserved player, are you saying you believe in openly sharing the strength of your townreads? Why? (although that's not really game relevant, maybe this discussion is better served postgame, but I will come back to it because I am pretty curious here)

And what do you mean about Accountant, I don't follow

[GuiltyLion]

I don't think GL should be scumreading me for townreading him; that makes no sense.

So everyone can see this:

1. Why are you voting me and not JaeReed if that's the case?

2. What makes him very likely to be town in your opinion?

Oh, he's voting JaeReed? Too bad, my townread on Jae is stronger than my urge to sheep. I still want to vote you though, because the arguments against you are good and I love pushing wagons.

Guilty is town due to personal experience playing with him as well as general tone. ScumLion also has no incentive to push Jae(if they were going to side with one of GM vs Jae, it'd be easier to side with Jae and push the IC).

this post weirds me out, like first I'm Accountant's strongest townread and that's why he's voting copper (despite me not voting copper), but then his townread on Jae is stronger than his willingness to sheep me. and it generally reads kinda fake, like the way you'd craft a response as scum when you get caught in an inconsistency.

I have been scum with Accountant before so I feel like I could see him as scum making this kind of statement about my meta to conveniently townread me. What did you mean by "general tone", can you elaborate on that?

If I was scum I'd just say I was sheeping GM, it would explain why I voted copper straight after she expressed disappointment that I unvoted. By general tone I mean that it looks like you're not blending in and going for a list of standard reads + one oddball read to look town, like you usually do as scum. Or rather, your oddball read(Jae) looks genuine instead of something thrown in to make it look like you're not blending in.

By general tone I mean that it looks like you're not blending in and going for a list of standard reads + one oddball read to look town, like you usually do as scum. Or rather, your oddball read(Jae) looks genuine instead of something thrown in to make it look like you're not blending in.

I went back and reread our Mafia thread together and I don't see anything where I said something about making standard reads + one oddball read to look town. Where'd you get that from?

By general tone I mean that it looks like you're not blending in and going for a list of standard reads + one oddball read to look town, like you usually do as scum. Or rather, your oddball read(Jae) looks genuine instead of something thrown in to make it look like you're not blending in.

I went back and reread our Mafia thread together and I don't see anything where I said something about making standard reads + one oddball read to look town. Where'd you get that from?

I noticed by looking at your posts.

I don't feel like your path to a conclusion about my alignment was genuine. And if JaeReed is in fact town then your angle of "GL's case is shit but I townread him anyway" feel very white-knighty and like buddying, since I had been vocalizing a softer scumread of copper while most of this was going on.

[GuiltyLion]

like it's similar to what Jae was saying, you know my scumplay from one game, the fact that you rule out me being scum for an arbitrary reason pings me as fake

[goodmorning]

@GM re:argument about townreads - I normally think of you as a cryptic/reserved player, are you saying you believe in openly sharing the strength of your townreads? Why? (although that's not really game relevant, maybe this discussion is better served postgame, but I will come back to it because I am pretty curious here)

And what do you mean about Accountant, I don't follow

Short answer: Scum can usually read between the lines; Town only have as much info as we share with each other. Also, holding Scum to a high standard of transparency makes it harder for them to hide. (And I'm not that cryptic :[ )

I mean that that's a weakness of mine; when pushing a tunnel, sometimes I'm too kindly disposed to those who're pushing it with me. Unless you meant something else, in which case please clarify.

[goodmorning]

(PS: Town can't read between the lines because they don't know who the Scum are)

[GuiltyLion]

hmmm you make a good point about scum being able to read between the lines that I have not considered much before, I guess I may be assuming too much of my own ability in being -discreet- about how much I want/don't-want to lynch people.

also I get you now, you're operating under scum!copper world and that's the part you were disagreeing with

my thinking is this, if Accountant were town and he thought copper is scum, and you (presumably also town) have previously indicated that you are locked into lynching copper, why would Accountant then hop off the wagon to push someone else for not playing along? and justify it with "he needs vote pressure"? I just don't like the post at all, especially due to the explicit "i don't care what his alignment is" attitude, which feels a little exaggerated.

[Accountant]

it's not like I can't vote copper again at deadline lmao

[copper223]

@GM
The important part is his attitude now, not when he finished his first newbie, and how likely he is to react in a productive manner to a wagon on himself (which I correctly assessed).

The proof that my approach is better is that he answered my question (and I liked his answer) while you are still unable to get anything out of him, other than playing associatives.

@GL
And does working under that assumption (copper is scum) to the exclusion of all others make sense to you? Is this something she would do as town?

It was pretty clear to me you were okay with my lynch, in fact there was little to read between the lines because you openly said so.

That's part of the reason why I think you're town, you were perfectly placed if you are scum to continue that push on Jae and ignore me until deadline where you would half-regretfully compromise on me because nobody was following you on your anchor wagon and you would get very little flack for that.

@Accountat
Your approach (pressure voting iron) was unlikely to help town and you don't seem to have put much thought into it other than making it seem proper when you voted nor does it look like you really care about the outcome.

[Accountant]

what do you mean "outcome"

[copper223]

He is still not explaining his reads to you and your latest reply was along the lines of "I can always go back to copper so who gives a fuck".

[Accountant]

That's because he's a toxic, stubborn player.

[Dragonfire]

Can I ask you, what made you vote copper and then switch? If you think Accountant is confirmed scum, why vote copper in the first place.

He's really annoying, so I want him out, but... I'd be going against my town duties by policy lynching one of my own, so instead I'll suck it up and eliminate the scum that has been instigating instead... You can consider the vote a symbolic slap to his face followed by a 'wake up man!'

Can you then tell me why Accountant and copper's argument was not TvT? Give me reasons.

VOTE: DDD

Well, I guess I'm stupid. I meant to ask you who your strongest townread was, but for some reason I wrote "scumread" instead. Who is your strongest townread anyway?

I don't like talking about my "strongest" townreads, I know that a lot of players think readslists are useful but IMO the information they give scum is more valuable than the information they give town.

I will not vote goodmorning, drealmer/Marian slot, or copper today. Those three are people I am the most confident in being town.

Oh, okay. I would generally agree with that, but I don't have as strong a read on goodmorning.

And I think readslists are incredibly useful, because we can catch scum who backtrack and go back on what they said in readslists, in order to get a mislynch.

@Dragon
Who is scum?

I keep on reading sensible and "proper" posts from you, many of which I happen to agree on, that however always end in you

not

scum-reading someone.

The issue is that in this game I literally haven't been able to get scumreads on anyone. Usually tons of things jump out to me as scummy but for some reason I'm finding it hard to read people. Gun to my head, I'd probably vote DDD, since I definitely find him the scummiest right now, but my reasons for doing so have really already been brought up by others. For the sake of a lynch, flip and information I'd be prepared to vote Jae, GM, or ironstove as well. I can't see myself voting you, GL, the drealmerz slot or Accountant today.

If most of the new players don't mention it or agree with him it's more likely that's a genuine perspective he's had all game, if instead that's not the case (which iron signaled before when he said he would lynch him) he is more likely to be scum among the three stoogies.

Who do you mean by "the three stoogies?"

As I've said before, I found that post weird, and especially DDD's push that you were scum on the basis that only you found it weird.

[copper223]

The three stooges are an old comedy act, here I am using it to refer to Accountant, DDD and GM.

What did Accountant recently do to go up in your town-estimation of him? You were doubting that town-read as of 436 while I was changing my mind because of how genuine his "tunnel escalation" looked.

[GuyInFreezer]

VC 1.09

Accountant (3):

MaidMarian, ironstove, GuiltyLion

copper223 (2):

goodmorning, Debonair Danny DiPietro

ironstove (1):

Accountant

Debonair Danny DiPietro (1):

copper223

Not Voting:

Dragonfire, JaeReed

With

9

votes,

5

votes to lynch.

The deadline is frozen at 3 days 5 hours.

[Dragonfire]

The three stooges are an old comedy act, here I am using it to refer to Accountant, DDD and GM.

What did Accountant recently do to go up in your town-estimation of him? You were doubting that town-read as of 436 while I was changing my mind because of how genuine his "tunnel escalation" looked.

No, I said my town-read on him had weakened, not gone completely. It hasn't changed since to be honest, but it's still a townread.

[copper223]

No, I said my town-read on him had weakened, not gone completely. It hasn't changed since to be honest, but it's still a townread.

What do you think about GL's point regarding Accountant's vote on Iron?

[goodmorning]

hmmm you make a good point about scum being able to read between the lines that I have not considered much before, I guess I may be assuming too much of my own ability in being -discreet- about how much I want/don't-want to lynch people.

also I get you now, you're operating under scum!copper world and that's the part you were disagreeing with

my thinking is this, if Accountant were town and he thought copper is scum, and you (presumably also town) have previously indicated that you are locked into lynching copper, why would Accountant then hop off the wagon to push someone else for not playing along? and justify it with "he needs vote pressure"? I just don't like the post at all, especially due to the explicit "i don't care what his alignment is" attitude, which feels a little exaggerated.

I mean, being discreet about some things is possible, especially in Newbie games, but townreads, not really.

I guess?

Because ironstove is being a frustrating dick? That move doesn't even have to be alignment-indicative; I've made it before as either.

@GM
The important part is his attitude now, not when he finished his first newbie, and how likely he is to react in a productive manner to a wagon on himself (which I correctly assessed).

The proof that my approach is better is that he answered my question (and I liked his answer) while you are still unable to get anything out of him, other than playing associatives.

Normally I'd agree, except that it ended TWO DAYS AGO.

DAYS.

I mean, he answered my questions. Just not very well. I don't do associatives before flips, except sometimes in LyLo, which this is not, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

What was the point of this? You're doing the same thing you complained about in the last sentence here. I also agree with Dragon that you should at least give some kinda reason for your read, but that's theory so w/e.

It's a refutation of what seems to be their primary argument, it's my argument about why I'm skeptical that they were making an honest argument, and if they are town it's useful information to modify their gameplay so it's useful.

If most of the new players don't mention it or agree with him it's more likely that's a genuine perspective he's had all game, if instead that's not the case (which iron signaled before when he said he would lynch him) he is more likely to be scum among the three stoogies.

How does a new player disagreeing with me make my perspective less genuine? It might make me wrong, but it wouldn't mean I didn't sincerely believe my argument when I made it.

His first post is null/troll town, but the follow up is bullshit when he tries to purport that it's a list of serious reads.

What makes you think it isn't serious?

[copper223]

iron's posting all over the site is the same

N1730 begs to differ.

Which makes me wonder.

Lol ok, I interpreted this as another barb thrown my way implying I am defending him because he is my buddy or to WK him but it's true and more likely that you're just wondering about him in isolation, you're fucking giving me a persecution complex.

[copper223]

How does a new player disagreeing with me make my perspective less genuine? It might make me wrong, but it wouldn't mean I didn't sincerely believe my argument when I made it.

One of your points was that you have a hard time believing only I misread that post while everyone else got it (so I'm scum looking for an excuse to push you), at the time nobody else commented on it (which is not the same thing) and the less people "get it" the more it's objectively likely that your post could and was misinterpreted by town as well so the less valid does that point of view become and the more it looks like an excuse you made up to shift the argument.

[goodmorning]

It makes me wonder

about ironstoves

, to clear that up.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

How does a new player disagreeing with me make my perspective less genuine? It might make me wrong, but it wouldn't mean I didn't sincerely believe my argument when I made it.

One of your points was that you have a hard time believing only I misread that post while everyone else got it (so I'm scum looking for an excuse to push you), at the time nobody else commented on it (which is not the same thing) and the less people "get it" the more it's objectively likely that your post could and was misinterpreted by town as well so the less valid does that point of view become and the more it looks like an excuse you made up to shift the argument.

You didn't even remotely argue the point I made, you just restated your original argument.

But before I try to educate you, again, let's get back to first principles. If someone makes an incorrect argument but one they sincerely believe is correct, is that a town trait, a null trait, or a scum trait?