Mini Normal 1827 - No Flavor Mafia (Game Over)

[Creature]

At least the ones that aren't pushing their opinions.

[Transcend]

Is game solving super alignment indicative to you?

[Transcend]

Also I'd beg to differ for Io game solving.

[Vedith]

Yeah that was more of a "recently" posted list.

[Creature]

Is game solving super alignment indicative to you?

Yes, if that player isn't gamesolving, it's probably not town motivated.

[Transcend]

I think that someone "not solving a game" doesn't ring scum to me. Town and scum are both capable of trolling / being lazy.

[massive]

I really feel like I should go read that Naomi wall. I feel like something in there must be a teachable moment.

[Creature]

I think that someone "not solving a game" doesn't ring scum to me. Town and scum are both capable of trolling / being lazy.

Though, I know some town players don't like being tagged down as lazy.

[Naomi-Tan]

4. massive - I went it with a pretty null veiw into the ISO. Now; Eh.. kinda scum-Nullish I feel that they havn't posted enough to warrent a scummy read but They are pushing someone I now town read and It feels pretty.. weak? I dunno.. This ones got me on the fence a little I feel that they might be scum or not.. this one is hard.. Gut plays a large part here but I also don't like how there only town read is me (because I feel by now I'm obvious as a flare) Which seems kinda off to me. and even then they never said I was town but just implied they thought that. Its really award. I also don't buy there scum slip argument :/ oh yeah and post more

You really need to reconsider that xyzzy read. Don't fall into the "I post giant walls, and so do they, so we must be the same alignment" trap.

Also, what about the push on xyzzy feels weak? There are two perfectly good examples of scummy behavior and you may not have noticed but xyzzy has conveniently gone absent and so can't be extensively questioned about their walls of review. I wouldn't stick your neck out so far to protect them, or we may have to come back and reconsider your status once they flip scum.

i don't think bs is scum lol

i'm asking you why bs/xyz is impossible for you.

@naomi I finished reading your wall of text. You made a pretty good case for X being scum. I had them as null before but now they've dropped to a scum lean.

My XYYZY read is from my 510 analysis I do think its funny that me and blackstar got two separate reads from the same bit of text and I wonder if its because of how I formatted it (as I was making it in order of posts that came up) much like how you guys don't think I'm scum because of posts like 510 going into her thoughts 510 makes a lot of sense to me. Like I can see the connections to things she does and track her POV pretty stably it seems that nearly everything she said that can be tracked back to either her mentality being simalier to my own (aka she doesn't fully have a read and is unsure about herself) or its something else she said along the way. Like the things I like just seem too intricately linked to be Scum motivated.

[Io]

Sorry I was busy all day after school and I was just far to tired to get on.
I just finished catching up and reading the last 5 pages.

First, I don't really like Naomi's 518 reads for the same reason I didn't like Light's reads. Though Naomi has been doing a lot more than light so I don't feel it being too scummy or really that much at all, just bad.

The thing with Ved and Black just looked silly. For 1 that post was pretty clean I'm not sure how Black managed to misinterpret that, but really I don't think you can call that a lie, it's more just a clear indication that Black has not been following what you have been arguing at all (Talking about Ved). At least that argument looks way to bad to be a planned scum interaction so I can't see a Black x Ved scum team at all in the slightest.

My reaction to creatures 575: -_-
Like I know I don't have insane activity in most of my games, but like that ISO is small so you could have at least bothered to look and see that I did push my scum reads.

YOU

were even one of them early on and I pushed you. But like whatever it doesn't matter.

[Naomi-Tan]

Sorry I was busy all day after school and I was just far to tired to get on.
I just finished catching up and reading the last 5 pages.

First, I don't really like Naomi's 518 reads for the same reason I didn't like Light's reads. Though Naomi has been doing a lot more than light so I don't feel it being too scummy or really that much at all, just bad.

The thing with Ved and Black just looked silly. For 1 that post was pretty clean I'm not sure how Black managed to misinterpret that, but really I don't think you can call that a lie, it's more just a clear indication that Black has not been following what you have been arguing at all (Talking about Ved). At least that argument looks way to bad to be a planned scum interaction so I can't see a Black x Ved scum team at all in the slightest.

My reaction to creatures 575: -_-
Like I know I don't have insane activity in most of my games, but like that ISO is small so you could have at least bothered to look and see that I did push my scum reads.

YOU

were even one of them early on and I pushed you. But like whatever it doesn't matter.

you said you didn't like my reads in 518 but you didn't say why. Could you please define what you didn't like about it? I also find it strange you didn't comment on 510.

[xyzzy]

my apologies for going a couple days without saying anything; I've been busier than usual the last couple days with real life things (yesterday my girlfriend and I spent what felt like 2 hours deliberating over whether to buy a plush Pokeball or a plush Shadow the Hedgehog at a Toys'R'Us, so needless to say, the things I've been busy with have been Very Important Business)

I have a very long response to Naomi-Tan's post 510 below, and I have it in its own section, with lots of hyphens.

the whole Vedith/BlackStar thing is absurd and is making both of them look scummy. that said, it's making Vedith look more scummy. I could see it being a bussing situation, though.

-------------------------

here's some responses to Naomi-Tan's post 510 (which contain responses to my post 381 and post 402):

19: even though it's a fairly obvious point, I doubt scum would directly acknowledge an idea like this that can only benefit the town. if any member of the town hadn't already come to this conclusion and Killthestory is scum, then this post is Killthestory saying "hey, by the way, here's a thing I might do that you should pay attention to," and that seems unlikely.
27/28: Creature's post 27 seems like it's trying to set Jordarrian up to make a mistake if he's scum; Jordarrian completely avoids taking the bait, which isn't an extremely strong town tell, but it's definitely not a scum tell.
32-34: because the Jordarrian wagon came out of nowhere, once any of those 4 people are dead, it'll be a little bit more feasible to infer information about possible connections between them. I feel like most likely at most 1 person on that wagon is scum, so if Jordarrian dies, looking at how those 3 people all interacted with him will be a decent source of information.
50: post 50 is definitely not a strong tell, but in general, I feel like pointing out information that is theoretically obvious but that could still be used to mislead the town is a slight town tell.
67: it just doesn't feel legitimate to me. I don't have a strong reason for believing this, but it doesn't feel like a pro-town action.
76: I tend to not be a huge fan of meaningless tautological statements, but despite my misgivings toward them, I've found that they're not really a scum tell.

122: I don't think trying to work out that info is unusual, but I think the manner in which Transcend responds to that question could provide info.
135: correcting other players' typos feels like an attempt to subtly make someone look like less of an important contributor to the game without actually meaningfully saying anything about their arguments.
142: the "can you guess why" part is the part I like.
152: that's fair. while sharing gut reads is an acceptable thing to do imo, not sharing them is just fine too, and I think your reasons for doing so are valid.
161: just so it's clear, my longer posts generally involve a lot of ISO-checking.
184: "they're annoying" isn't a valid reason to lynch someone (it's entirely possible for a town player to be annoying or for a scum player to be the most charming person in the game), and agreeing with that statement without adding anything to it at all doesn't feel good to me.

5: as I said, it's probably completely irrelevant, but it has the potential to feel noteworthy later on.
6: even though this is a non-serious post, I feel like in general town is a little more likely to make that kind of post, even if it's 100% a joke.
20: I don't feel like finding post 19 and post 20 both slightly town-leaning contradictory, but I see where you're coming from.
24: I think it's reasonable to expect people to say something about whatever's going on in the game if possible. as I said, I think on its own it's a null tell, but if someone has a lot of posts where they're just saying things without really contributing to any ongoing conversation, that's not great.
29: I'm not sure I fully understand what you're getting at here.
61: I screwed up my own grammar here--basically, what I meant was that someone could (incorrectly) decide that light_ganski's post 25 was scummy, and the fact that you pointed out that it isn't is fine. I had no issues with post 25.
86: this is something that I noted around that point during this re-read, although I guess pointing it out at post 86 wasn't super clear.

123/124: I don't feel like quoting three posts and simply saying "these don't sound genuine" without any additional commentary is a substantial reason to focus on someone as scummy; I still don't have a strong sense of

why

Transcend finds those posts non-genuine, just that he does.
277: this was in response to BlackStar's comment in 276 about Transcend frequently wagon hopping. the fact that Killthestory suggested that Transcend get on a wagon and then he immediately did just seems interesting to me.

88: I'm not sure what you mean by this. as far as I can tell, Transcend is implying that you're a gimmick account here.
158: I can't recall now why I marked this as a post I dislike, and since I'm thinking about it now, I don't really feel like it's bad anymore.
164: Creature's post 164 changed my mind about Io's post 81. I guess I should've made that more clear.
197: I don't understand what you mean by this.
199: yeah, as I said to Transcend, this is some bad reasoning based on a misinterpretation on my part of how neighborhoods work.

-----------------------
I figured out from context that TvT probably means "town vs town"! I'm so proud of myself for figuring that out even though it's not on the abbreviations page. anyway, I'm going to give some thought to the possibiity that that's what's going on with me and Transcend, because it wouldn't be the first time that me and another town player with very different playstyles mutually tunnel each other, so even though I find Transcend scummy, I don't want to ignore the possibility that that's because of my own cognitive biases.

I mostly like Naomi-Tan's reads list in post 518; I think the fact that she goes into some detail for each person about how her reads have evolved is a good thing. that said, pointing out that you dislike someone's attitude and that it doesn't seem very nice while voting for that person kind of feels like you're just tacking on another reason to vote them that isn't actually relevant to their alignment. you also seem to imply that a lot of your reads are close to null, which isn't necessarily great.

I really dislike the fact that Transcend is pretty much openly choosing not to engage with certain portions of the game. Vedith seems to kind of be doing the same with post 523.

I'm planning on doing more re-read posts, and I'll try to format them in such a way that it's easier to go through them. I tend to have an easier time processing information about the game if it's been a few days since I first read it, which is largely why I've used that format.

[Naomi-Tan]

Its posts like that one that make me thing XYZZY is town, anyway Brace yourselves Naomi is responding shortly

[Io]

Sorry I was busy all day after school and I was just far to tired to get on.
I just finished catching up and reading the last 5 pages.

First, I don't really like Naomi's 518 reads for the same reason I didn't like Light's reads. Though Naomi has been doing a lot more than light so I don't feel it being too scummy or really that much at all, just bad.

The thing with Ved and Black just looked silly. For 1 that post was pretty clean I'm not sure how Black managed to misinterpret that, but really I don't think you can call that a lie, it's more just a clear indication that Black has not been following what you have been arguing at all (Talking about Ved). At least that argument looks way to bad to be a planned scum interaction so I can't see a Black x Ved scum team at all in the slightest.

My reaction to creatures 575: -_-
Like I know I don't have insane activity in most of my games, but like that ISO is small so you could have at least bothered to look and see that I did push my scum reads.

YOU

were even one of them early on and I pushed you. But like whatever it doesn't matter.

you said you didn't like my reads in 518 but you didn't say why. Could you please define what you didn't like about it? I also find it strange you didn't comment on 510.

Well I was about to explain this, but I just realized I completely misread those reads. But I had thought you were saying you had no scum reads since I just overlooked you saying it was Town to Scum and not a list of Town and no one under the scum list. I just feel pretty stupid.

[Killthestory]

wow this blew up

[Naomi-Tan]

19: even though it's a fairly obvious point, I doubt scum would directly acknowledge an idea like this that can only benefit the town. if any member of the town hadn't already come to this conclusion and Killthestory is scum, then this post is Killthestory saying "hey, by the way, here's a thing I might do that you should pay attention to," and that seems unlikely.

But isn't this WIFOM? With scum having day talk and everything they could just arrange not to do slips and have him announce it? It seems to me that this is NAI as we can't tell where he would be based on it.

32-34: because the Jordarrian wagon came out of nowhere, once any of those 4 people are dead, it'll be a little bit more feasible to infer information about possible connections between them. I feel like most likely at most 1 person on that wagon is scum, so if Jordarrian dies, looking at how those 3 people all interacted with him will be a decent source of information.

I think it would be too early in the game to be viable information even if 1 of 3 is scum thats still a 33% failure rate, if we include the initiator thats 25% .. Wouldn't it do more harm and good? and doesn't it seem like these are RVS votes? so would be NAI?

@67; I feel that this would depend largely on how you read him. If he is telling the truth then thats awesome, if not then that would be a bad post. So.. I agree with your stance on this, but am hopeful that he will confirm it in the future. If he does admit to lying then I guess we'll just react then.

122: I don't think trying to work out that info is unusual, but I think the manner in which Transcend responds to that question could provide info.

I don't think he reads these long wall posts. you may wish to give this one its own post to get his attention. But okay Lets see where this one goes.

135: correcting other players' typos feels like an attempt to subtly make someone look like less of an important contributor to the game without actually meaningfully saying anything about their arguments.

But isn't scrutinising such a small post also undermining them and also making them look worse by doing so? Also you sure TC (hey I found an abbreviation I like for him at last!) was trying to undermine me?

not a bad vote light

can you guess why i fos creature >:)

142: the "can you guess why" part is the part I like.

I still don't get it... can you explain deeper I'm still trying to work this bit out (I also don't know why he fos'd creature but neither did I care to ask)

161: just so it's clear, my longer posts generally involve a lot of ISO-checking.

Yup... lots and lots of isoing.. currently I have this message I'm making open, Your message, my response to your message and your response to my response and on occasion I'm opening the source post too (if I don't remember it or its not quoted in my post) I would also like to just say here as I missed it at the time 161 was meant to be in the townie section but was miss placed (yeah jumping up and down a post in a small window wasn't the greatest method

184: "they're annoying" isn't a valid reason to lynch someone (it's entirely possible for a town player to be annoying or for a scum player to be the most charming person in the game), and agreeing with that statement without adding anything to it at all doesn't feel good to me.

Yeah I get this, I'm starting to think that I'm going to get shot tonight because scum doesn't want to deal with my walls and walls of text and Town read by most if not all players.

5: as I said, it's probably completely irrelevant, but it has the potential to feel noteworthy later on.
6: even though this is a non-serious post, I feel like in general town is a little more likely to make that kind of post, even if it's 100% a joke.

5,6 I still dislike how you treated RVS stuff as Alignment Indicative. I don't think we will agree here. So.. Agreeing to Disagree.

20: I don't feel like finding post 19 and post 20 both slightly town-leaning contradictory, but I see where you're coming from.

And on slightly town leaning.. I think I can also see where your coming from scum had no reason to take that risk as either position. with fake slips just being announced faking a slip there is dumb and not scum thing to do.. Okay now we both see where we came from XD

24: I think it's reasonable to expect people to say something about whatever's going on in the game if possible. as I said, I think on its own it's a null tell, but if someone has a lot of posts where they're just saying things without really contributing to any ongoing conversation, that's not great.

Yeah but it appears to me that there was nothing left TO say, it was pretty much done with.. and its still page 1 of course which is always RVS valid

29: I'm not sure I fully understand what you're getting at here.

At the time I was annoyed as you said this was townie and when the wagon formed it was scummy. however that is not what you said, you just said it was interesting so this was a misinterpretation by myself. still curious how this wasn't included in your 30/31/32 post If you don't mind me switching the focus of my original statement.

86: this is something that I noted around that point during this re-read, although I guess pointing it out at post 86 wasn't super clear.

So this was a conclusion you made at the end? Okay.. Well yeah thats poorly filed. but not really too scummy I guess? I dunno doesn't seem to match up. (not with 86 its self but the comment as a whole) that was my major issue with it and why I quoted 123/124 and 277 as I wanted to explain that I didn't see you doing the thing you said you was doing.

277: this was in response to BlackStar's comment in 276 about Transcend frequently wagon hopping. the fact that Killthestory suggested that Transcend get on a wagon and then he immediately did just seems interesting to me.

yeah the quote was throwing me here as The statement didn't include the vote by TC so I got all confused and it was just another part of my 86 thing

88: I'm not sure what you mean by this. as far as I can tell, Transcend is implying that you're a gimmick account here.

In 88 they are making a statement that they dislike gimmick accounts, they called me a gimmick account before So I could see how you'd link this up in your mind, but in 88 partially they are just making a general statement of there dislike of gimmick accounts. kinda like me announcing I dislike Joker as a role.

197: I don't understand what you mean by this.

This one is a bit complex So I'll explain using bullet points.. in fact so confusing that I got a key element wrong and now will have to revise this from the top taking key details, im going to paraphase for swiftness.
• Creature says IO not voting is NAI 180
• IO miss interrupts Creatures 180 post as him telling her that one of the reasons she is scum is because she hasn't voted (188 Paragraph one)
• Creature Corrects IO. 197
This is the true chain of events. How I interrupted it was entirely differently, and now im really embarrassed so.. yeah i'm just walking away from this..

I mostly like Naomi-Tan's reads list in post 518; I think the fact that she goes into some detail for each person about how her reads have evolved is a good thing. that said, pointing out that you dislike someone's attitude and that it doesn't seem very nice while voting for that person kind of feels like you're just tacking on another reason to vote them that isn't actually relevant to their alignment. you also seem to imply that a lot of your reads are close to null, which isn't necessarily great.

Your right. it isn't Relevant to there alignment but It was the deciding factor on what side I put my vote after reading. See I had two choices, both equally scummy but only one of them I felt was being actively toxic and if I had the choice between, lurky predator scummy or abrasive rude scummy, I'm going to take the latter.. Its a case of the deciding push on my two highest scum reads.

Topics Dropped because i'm happy with the explanation and we can now eliminate them from future topics; 27/28, 50, 67, 76, 152, 161, 5,/6, 19/20, 29, 61, 277, 123/124, 197?

PEDIT; @IO - All right then. Guess that makes sense sorry for the confusion, Next time I'll place them in a more ... town to scummy way (thinking of colour coding it on a gradient )

PEDIT on thinking about it - I find it rather strange that you would make this mistake as I make a conclusion at the end of each persons read that shows my current thoughts on there town to scum position its strange to me that you would be able to after reading me calling multiple people scum that you would then read me as having no scum.. Now I'm suspicious.

[Killthestory]

school hit me hard ouch

[Dunnstral]

pistachi0n and Jordarrian are being prodded

[Vedith]

Yeah, prod my buddies!

[Naomi-Tan]

I think the walls made people freak out and flee XD

[BlackStar]

I'm just not feeling this game so far, honestly

[Vedith]

I'm just not feeling this game so far, honestly

Because I rattled your cage?
Talk to me about Maomi.

I'm not buying her bullshit play sadly, and I'm not sure if I should be.

[Vedith]

That clearly said Naomi!

[BlackStar]

You didn't rattle my cage lol. I'm just not that interested in this game so far. And if you scum read me, why do you want me to convince you that Naomi is town?

[Dunnstral]

Vote Count 1.6

Creature (3): Creature (2): xyzzy, light_ganski
BlackStar (2): Vedith, pistachi0n
xyzzy (2): Transcend, massive
Vedith (2): BlackStar, Naomi-Tan
killthestory (2): Skelda, Creature
light_ganski (1): Io
Jordarrian (1): killthestory

Not Voting (1): Jordarrian

With 13 votes it takes 7 to lynch

Day ends in (expired on 2016-09-09 11:30:00)