Mini Normal 1814 Machiavellian Mafia (Game Over)

[Transcend]

wow. what monsters i've created out of these two.

[Zap Rowsdower]

It's weird. I thought that if it turned out Maria was scum, I would feel differently about her.

I don't. Maria, you almost singlehandedly made this game unenjoyable for me to play (Nero helped). You caused me actual mental anguish. I dreaded each day opening because I knew I would have to put up with you again. I have no interest in ever talking to you in any capacity ever again; even if we were both town in a game together I'm pretty sure you would either act the same or close to it.

Elyse, sorry for tunneling on you. I respect you a lot and you played your role perfectly here.

BYF, I'm sorry but I don't have the will to give you a lot of useful criticism. The one thing I can say is that when a player presents solid evidence that a PR has cleared them, you need to at least consider it. If you're not even willing to do that, you've let your confidence blind you. Case in fucking point, I was town.

Itlepip, there's no way in hell anybody could reasonably call this setup balanced. And it actually wound up working in scum's favor, at least on my part, because I thought there was no way in hell we would have a JK on top of anything else. That was a big part of why I was leaning toward lynching Nero. If we had had one of the scum flip goon, town would've been so mistrustful of any PR claim that the remaining scum could probably sit back and let town do their mislynches for them.

[Zap Rowsdower]

And yeah, this was my fault too. I take responsibility for my part in it. But my main point here is that this game wasn't even fun to play for the most part.

[MariaR]

I'm sorry that made you so unhappy with the game as that was never my goal I was just playing to win a way I know how and being stubborn like this was a way I thought I could get to it I promise you I don't act like this in every single game I play as I have a different approach on each game if you don't want to talk to me I understand.

[Something_Smart]

Itlepip, there's no way in hell anybody could reasonably call this setup balanced. And it actually wound up working in scum's favor, at least on my part, because I thought there was no way in hell we would have a JK on top of anything else. That was a big part of why I was leaning toward lynching Nero. If we had had one of the scum flip goon, town would've been so mistrustful of any PR claim that the remaining scum could probably sit back and let town do their mislynches for them.

The setup was not the problem. The town completely misapplied the principles of setup spec here. It's not about what the roles technically CAN do, it's about what they are MEANT to do.

Okay, so the game included three roles technically capable of protecting someone from a kill. But you have to ask yourself what the purpose of those roles is. Rosske's role sure as heck was not meant to be protective. And both Elyse's and Nero's roles had protective and investigative elements to them. An non-consecutive JK is not a lot of protective power, and the Weak Doctor is better used to get clears. So yes, if Rosske and Elyse had flipped normal Bodyguard and normal Doctor, you would be right to be highly suspicious of a JK claim of any sort. But you have to look at the setup as a whole and not just cherry pick parts of the roles to support your conclusion.

[itlepip]

Itlepip, there's no way in hell anybody could reasonably call this setup balanced. And it actually wound up working in scum's favor, at least on my part, because I thought there was no way in hell we would have a JK on top of anything else. That was a big part of why I was leaning toward lynching Nero. If we had had one of the scum flip goon, town would've been so mistrustful of any PR claim that the remaining scum could probably sit back and let town do their mislynches for them.

Lol so because there was too much town power in your eyes the setup was scumsided?

Rosske was the probably most important PR in the game and he used his bodyguard ability which is in my mind the most useless one there. Rosske's BG thing was a joke because I didn't think anyone would ever use it so I was really surprised that he did in the first place and that you guys actually thought that that meant something about the setup.

I think in terms of power town totally had more power than most 13s but since it was more protective than investigative there wasn't any clear way town could steamroll the game or really get steamrolled.

The issue this game for town in my opinion is that I saw no real long term analysis. d1/d2 you didn't ask for reads from lurkers, nobody iso dived well, Elyse had some good stuff but like aside from that there wasn't much.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Listen, you had SCUM thinking that a town PR was fakeclaiming because of how many town PRs there were.

Like, they're scum. They knew that Nero wasn't scum and they still couldn't be sure he was a JK because they didn't even have any active power roles.

Let's consider some possibilities, based on this setup.

-D1, town lynches the traitor encryptor. Scum shoot a VT. Town's weak doctor crumbs their target, then targets one of the two remaining scum and dies. Town JOAT follows the scum who performed the kill. On D2, town sees the weak doc's target and lynches scum. Meanwhile town JOAT gives their result that the last remaining scum targeted the VT who died. D3, town lynch scum and win. Best case scenario for scum, the last scum manages to eke out one more day with a clever fakeclaim -- but at that point, either the JOAT neapolitan role or the town weak doc would confirm them as scum the next day.

There are multiple ways for this scenario to play out because there are so many different ways for town to produce a result indicative of who scum is. Let's say scum get run up and fakeclaim VT. Neapolitan checks them that night and gets a "not VT" result. JK can jail the scum who make the kill. Weak doc, JK and commuter can all prevent kills from happening. Follower can produce a pretty high-confidence result that a certain player was scum. Weak doc produces high-confidence results. BG can even help clear a player because if the JOAT crumbs who they're going to protect and then they die, it suggests that person is town.

But ultimately I think you just have to consider numbers, too. It becomes so difficult for town to believe in PR claims when they see claim after claim, flip after flip, and then scum have nothing that's all that useful. If you'd even made one of the goons something dumb like a neighborizer it would've helped. Or like a one-shot blocking ability of some sort.

You say it's not about what power roles CAN do. I say you have to consider that. You have to plan for worst-case scenarios and mitigate where you can. I know because it's happened to me as a mod before. I had a role I was excited for, I MEANT for it to be used a certain way, and guess what? It worked out a totally different way and tipped the scales heavily in favor of town.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I can't keep engaging with this thread or I'll devolve into a frothing pile of pure anger.

GG scum.

[itlepip]

Guess what if a 9p has a weak doctor what you just described could happen and town could 'steamroll' but if you came to me with just a weak doctor for town you have a ridiculously scumsided setup. Yes guess what if all of town have god reads scum lose really quickly but your situation was 'town lynch scum and then all the prs have perfect checks.' which breaks literally every game. The JK was added because otherwise the setup is scumsided with just the weak doctor and JOAT, same thing with a commuter but just less so.

Also the whole 'throw in a random bullshit abillity for scum' argument makes no sense to me.

[gerryoat]

Did I do well for my first game here?

Also yeah, don't do this setup again, it's way too townsided. At least give mafia a role blocker and maybe a 1 shot of something else.

[gerryoat]

I thought a Joat and weak doctor were fair. The commuter was kinda getting it out of balance and then the jailkeeper made it too unbalanced.

also is there a graveyard I can read now? i wanna see what they were saying

[itlepip]

Okay, weak doctor can get fake innos because of JK and can only ever get one scum plus bad commuter interactions.
JK can get a 50/50 if there is literally 1 scum left and that is it. Normal JK beating mafia by always jailing them doesn't work. Still has a JK ability though.
JOAT gets 1 result which can give 1 town but guilties aren't certain unless they force a VT claim, tracker/follower are useful for the one investigative, the other abilities are pretty useless.
Commuter can stop a kill but also throws off doctor/JK night actions.

Why would mafia ever get a roleblocker here? The results are already as iffy as they should be in a mafia game, getting roleblocked just means that the setup which is focused around townclears doesn't actually have any safe townclears and you are nearly playing a mountainous.

Dude the JOAT and weak doctor would have been the stupidest mafia game ever. The JOAT is just a really shitty tracker and weak doctor is a little bit better but not by that much. That would be a little strong in a 9p, in a 13p it is ridiculously bad for town.

[itlepip]

Dead thread, waiting on mafia thread.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p8184536

[gerryoat]

yup you can post mafia thread

[Nero Cain]

Gerry, I think your play was rather poor and like I said, i think you would have been lynched if you didn't fake that newb tell. Ira and Zap mainly carried the scum team, you should thank them.

I don't mind CR being salty about me catching him.

[Elyse]

Never would have guessed Maria scum. Hats off to her.

I thought BYF or Nero had to be scum because of the PRs but I think having so much town power that you think one PR has to be scum is a cool concept. Especially with the traitor involved.

I thought Gerry was scum near the end but never would've pegged Maria as his buddy. Hats off to them.

[Elyse]

I just said hats off twice

[Nero Cain]

Also Elyse's reads were shit, didn't she tunnel town the whole game? I'm not sure why CR thinks she played well.

[Dwlee99]

eh i didn't play too hot
was trying to reread but oh wellz

[Elyse]

Love you too

[MariaR]

A lot of the stuff that happened we got quite lucky on a lot of the game was left of up to chance because of the town pr's even giving mafia a 3rd goon instead of traitor would have been ever this was extremely town sided no matter if town can get an "iffy result" (that rarely happens) good game none the less and ty for hosting

[Nero Cain]

I mean you played better than Ira and DW and Zap but you still tunneled town the whole game so I'm not sure why he thought your play was good.

[MariaR]

Never would have guessed Maria scum. Hats off to her.

I thought BYF or Nero had to be scum because of the PRs but I think having so much town power that you think one PR has to be scum is a cool concept. Especially with the traitor involved.

I thought Gerry was scum near the end but never would've pegged Maria as his buddy. Hats off to them.

You played pretty dang well with the cards you were given if Gerry didn't get you as PR you prob would of won this game for town well played to you!

[BlackStar]

Now that I know your scum meta, I don't think I'll be fooled by you again Maria lol

[Dwlee99]

I was trying to get you guys to understand zap town and that I wanted to find scum on the map wagon.