Mini 1820 — Lazy Summer Mafia (Game Over)

[Firebringer]

Beacuse it goes against the standard of providing a consistent set of expectations of a game?

what's the "expectations" here?

That a game would not deviate that much from the norm?

[Antihero]

what is "the norm" though?

you have to define it or else it's arbitrary

[Firebringer]

what is "the norm" though?

you have to define it or else it's arbitrary

You have too look at past games for what is expected. Like do you want me to pull up all the games and go through a variation chart to show you what is and isn't normal?
Is it usual to have all roles limited by a single night? No? then its probably gimmicky.

[Infinity 324]

I agree with firebringer that this setup was out of the ordinary for a normal game but I also think it's ok for some normal games to push the boundaries. Sometimes you want to play a straightforward game with a twist. Imo there's too much of a difference between theme and normal rn.

[Antihero]

if your definition is "something that players will see as predictable" then i'm at the same point as infinity to agree to disagree

different players will see different things as "predictable" and i think it limits the mods' design space too much

[Infinity 324]

I think this goes more out of the norm than, well, the norm for normal games. I think most people agree that in terms of normalcy, this game would be significantly higher than standard deviation. I just don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing.

[Infinity 324]

Honestly that's why I signed up

[Firebringer]

I think this goes more out of the norm than, well, the norm for normal games. I think most people agree that in terms of normalcy, this game would be significantly higher than standard deviation. I just don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing.

I would argue that because it falls significantly higher of the standard deviation it wouldn't qualify as normal, but alas reviewers made their judgement on it.

I think this game would be better if it was in the Theme queue and advertised as a "Mostly normal game with one non normal mechanic"

Like the games name is even surrounded by the gimmick mechanic.
"Lazy Summer Mafia"

joke on all actions basically sorted in one night which makes it easier for mod.

it is intentionally themed at the start.

[Firebringer]

if your definition is "something that players will see as predictable" then i'm at the same point as infinity to agree to disagree

different players will see different things as "predictable" and i think it limits the mods' design space too much

I guess so.

[Infinity 324]

I think this goes more out of the norm than, well, the norm for normal games. I think most people agree that in terms of normalcy, this game would be significantly higher than standard deviation. I just don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing.

I would argue that because it falls significantly higher of the standard deviation it wouldn't qualify as normal, but alas reviewers made their judgement on it.

I think this game would be better if it was in the Theme queue and advertised as a "Mostly normal game with one non normal mechanic"

Like the games name is even surrounded by the gimmick mechanic.
"Lazy Summer Mafia"

joke on all actions basically sorted in one night which makes it easier for mod.

it is intentionally themed at the start.

The thing is, I still think it's closer to a normal than to most theme games.

So I still think it qualifies as a normal in the spirit and letter of the rules.

It's just an unusual normal.

[pieguyn]

and the night-specific modifier is explicitly normal so... why is it not normal?

Beacuse it goes against the standard of providing a consistent set of expectations of a game?

Like just because you announce it pregame doesn't mean its normal in my eyes.

Like If I announced "roles will have flavor" you would say thats not normal, but thats just because of the rule.
The reason the rule exists is for consistent game play.

I hold that to much higher degree then just because marquis twists what is allowed to make this game possible.

flower-game was partly an attempt at making a game that wasn't a true "normal" game in certain ways, but was normal enough to be accepted as a normal anyway.

I don't really see an issue with it as long as you 1. announce it pregame in an obvious way where you can be sure no one will miss it, and 2. include a warning whenever asking for replacements.

[Infinity 324]

Lol@the second part

[Firebringer]

When I look at the replacement thread, it says it there. I was asked to replace in by Marquis in Site chat, so mileage will vary on that part.
Didn't read a damn thing and was just trying to help out fill a slot.

I don't think that changes much though, just because you clearly announce the non normal mechanic I still don't think that the changes the fact its a non normal mechanic.

[Firebringer]

flower-game was partly an attempt at making a game that wasn't a true "normal" game in certain ways, but was normal enough to be accepted as a normal anyway.

and I disagree fundamentally with any game trying to be "not a normal" game when they are in the Normal queue. Put your game somewhere else it doesn't belong there.

[Slandaar]

So you don't think if a Doc claims D1/D2 the other cc and we lynch through both every time? Like what?

if your setup spec is based on the simplistic and arbitrary premise "there CAN'T be town duplicates" then... yeah ya'll deserved the two mislynches.

You make a very clever response. You didn't answer the question but I'm sure there is a reason for that.

I said in game it's possible to have the same role go check if you want. The point is though you know people are going to cc so you know the docs are getting lynched. The setup therefore isn't balanced.

The absolutely awful argument previously posed is N1 Doc + N2 Doc. Difference being you can logically decude as a N2 doc that there could be a N1 doc and so don't cc automatically.

It's all to do with town being able to work out both roles can be town and there isn't a way to do that here so you have a setup with 2 free mislynches for scum. Ridiculous really. Docs are anti town in this setup as is so having 2 is an absolute joke. If one protected on N2 you don't know which, you go to even numbers and then they both get lynched most of the time too.

You are balancing setups to be around 50/50 in the sites meta. You are not balancing for 5 year olds, you are not balancing for some other website where every one is a PR. The two doc is broken in scums favour in the sites meta. That is the bottom line.

Turns out your response wasn't so clever.

[Slandaar]

(you need more town power if you move from site meta to multiple of same roles are accepted as it is a big influence in previous games results in towns favour)

[Antihero]

no i'm not trying to be clever

if you already recognize there can be two docs then why would they both get lynched?

[Antihero]

what is binding town to lynching both doc claims?

that's not being clever, i'm seriously asking

[Raskolnikov]

Slandaar is just salty. It's okay slandaar, I was wrong too.

[Killthestory]

I did good this game

[Slandaar]

what is binding town to lynching both doc claims?

that's not being clever, i'm seriously asking

I am not bound to go to work but you know I will. Your arguments are just pointless.

Why wasn't one of the docs a tracker?

[Slandaar]

Slandaar is just salty. It's okay slandaar, I was wrong too.

Just a waste of time when the setup is 80/20. I wasn't really wrong.

[Slandaar]

AH, if you are so sure this is balanced, show me a normal game where scum and town had the exact same role and the scum wasn't lynched when claiming said role (scum must make it to endgame without being lynched due to role).

There must be a few around as you don't expect town to suspect the claim. Right?

[Antihero]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=57689
there was 1 town neighborizer 1 scum neighborizer we didn't lynch either

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=23589
two town millers, didn't lynch both

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=62944
this one's a theme, but i had a nearly identical copy of another townie's role as scum and didn't get lynched when i claimed and got cc'ed

[Antihero]

and as a player, i wouldn't lynch through 2 people just for a claim/counterclaim.

i don't think i'm special. i think i'm average.