Mini Normal 1829 - Game Over

[kraska77]

It was obvious you were getting there
Anyway I already explained why I don't want him lynched today, he's a slight townread so it's not like I have any reason to defend him if associations start pointing towards him being scum

Pedit: my scum games were a fail and I'm not playing like I did in either of those games next time I roll scum

[MariaR]

We lynch Bliz after this btw

[MariaR]

Also Thors point that I have to be a scum pr is moot because I would claim pr as a scum pr

[Elyse]

I would vote kraska or shadow

And you're not voting either of us because...?

why would I vote either when giga is at L-3 and I'm scumreading him the most

like you're just making shit up to make me look bad

vote:Elyse

We have a day and change left, go ahead and claim.

ANY HAMMERS BEFORE INTENT AND A FULL CLAIM WILL BE TREATED AS A SCUM CLAIM.

VT

Honestly just lynch me

This game sucks

[kraska77]

I think I'm gonna re-read the game Tom
I feel like my reads are off

[kraska77]

UNVOTE: for now

[MariaR]

The sad thing is one of Sable/Bliz/Karnos are town and that pains me

[MariaR]

I would vote kraska or shadow

And you're not voting either of us because...?

why would I vote either when giga is at L-3 and I'm scumreading him the most

like you're just making shit up to make me look bad

vote:Elyse

We have a day and change left, go ahead and claim.

ANY HAMMERS BEFORE INTENT AND A FULL CLAIM WILL BE TREATED AS A SCUM CLAIM.

VT

Honestly just lynch me

This game sucks

Would you lynch in any of those 3 I named?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I would like to hear the logic from you that rules it out.
Maria is being an opportunistic voter, openly so, and an AtE machine, who isn't explaining anything beyond when she does a scummy act and then deigns to hang a hat on it as a defense, mixed with defensive claims that are themselves AtE and meta based on a claim of superlative scum play, despite admitting that on her other site her scum play is considered weak and her town play strong.

She needs death.

She literally just did a reaction test to clear Elyse and then voted her.
Seriously now.
Where's Michael and his optimal theory play case on that one?

I admit it's kind of tinfoily and its strength is wavering significantly...

My initial townread of her came from the fact that her role in the group's dynamic and her level of comfort doesn't seem to match up with the pattern I expected from a scum!Maria. Based on a few of the scumgames of Maria I've looked at, her attitude seems to vary greatly based on its playerlist. For example, in Mini 1823 with a town!Transcend and gerry, her ISO doesn't read as awkwardly as this one does, and her tone is aggressive and jokey. I think this came from the fact that she was familiar with the playerlist and feels comfortable playing with them and manipulating them. It probably worked too, she pretty much obvscummed the whole game and survived until endgame somehow. Versus my actual experience with scum!Maria, she played up the newbie card and had a very awkward approach to playing the game, probably because she actually was nervous and didn't know anyone. Hell, while skimming Machiavellian Mafia while it was ongoing (but post Maria flip in 649), I thought Maria was

town

because she was acting so differently. While looking for more examples to support this theory of mine too, I came across this quote from another player who I also think picked up on this during a 3p LYLO where Maria was, in fact, scum:

Spoiler:

I think her meta depends on the players she's with, and uses what those players said as town in previous games as her playing field.
Last scum game I was with her (I think I already put this?) she had 2 friends in and seemed more confident in just shouting the entire game, because both of her friends normally town read her for that.
In the game where she was scum with KTS and Zach, I think she was more mellow on the scum sided and just played on her innocence because she wasn't in as much of a comfort zone as she was with Gerry and Trans.
Originally I felt that she was ready to shout towards me as she might be getting slightly more conftable considering we are in a few games together, but then as we were just scumming it together at the time, she quickly backed off, possibly so my alarm bells didn't go off.
I thought I was just thinking too much into it and decided to ignore it.

Here she seems to be trying more in an innocence kind of play as she doesn't have her friends in here to read up for shouting.

I'm not confident enough on Maria's meta to go by that purely (hence the retraction on day 3) as I haven't played with her as town yet (or confirmed town, at least).
However, going by how she acted with Trans and Gerry (and Trans calling her town for it), her town game is being stubborn, loud and a lot more forceful... Again, this could be a comfort thing on personality rather than meta.

So, the fact that I know that Transcend is town and me seeing Maria react really poorly to pressure makes me think that this is how she naturally is as town... Scum!her would probably actually try to pocket Transcend again because it almost always works for her and can probably bluff better under pressure from her wagon. The fact that she has

some

degree of confidence also support this for me.

What made my read waver though is all of this confusing shit she's pulling with Elyse and the fact that I don't think Maria has really done anything townie. As much as I hate pre-flip associatives, Elyse and Maria are probably not scum together and I actually think Elyse is scum. So, I

like

the tinfoil theory that Maria is town because of the group dynamic but I can compromise on her at this point if the Elyse wagon is dismantled entirely because Maria hasn't really done anything that's made me feel good about townreading her.

---

I think I'm gonna re-read the game Tom
I feel like my reads are off

history says this probably is a bad sign for my reads too :/

[MariaR]

I don't really flip town often as you can see from my past games so what I try to do is say whatever is on my mind but I'm learning I can't do that because some people think a lot of the comments I think we're scummy the reaction test I did on Elyse was to help me with my scumread on her but it in fact made it worse I am still going to lynch her because the other 3 people I want to get lynched aren't getting lynched clearly I think I tried to show false confident because my mind set was "Okay well my town game on the site I play on is amazing so I'm gonna do just as well on this site" and that's not the case at all so I'm trying to find how I want to play as town I can't just be my carefree self because everyone finds that filler I do scummy I feel confined into a playstyle I don't want to do just so I can appear towny to others me putting air and stuff I've done my whole mafia life so I don't see it as scummy what so ever but I think I'm starting to see how others can I think once I get out of my EM! mindset it will help me

[I Am Innocent]

That was a townie reaction. :-/

unvote elyse

Leaning towards a Maria or shadow flash lynch instead. Whose game?

[MariaR]

I think the confidence I got was from Transcend seeing me as town and I just thought everyone would back off and I didn't understand why the mason claims are scummy when gambits like this happen all the time but I need to remember not every site has the same rules and the normal is different here and I shouldn't be content with my friends tring me I should be content with EVERYONE townreading me

[MariaR]

I'm fine with being lynched at this point I finally figured out my main problem in this game and it's prob to late for me to fix it.

[I Am Innocent]

Kraska I'm unsure of now too.

[I Am Innocent]

Maria would u vote Kraska or shadow?

[MariaR]

Kraska I'm unsure of now too.

sr me all you want but I promise Kraska and Giga are both town here
I wouldn't vote Kraska I'd have to do a re read on shadow to see if I wanted to vote in Elyse/Shadow

Can you tell me how you feel about Sable/Bliz/Karnos though?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

ok like we have 1 day until the deadline, so if it's necessary:

i am honestly happy to lynch myself, my mislynch is actually incredibly pro-town. i will flip town, but it might be better for the gamestate if i'm gone. to elaborate:

A: The ascetic claim can probably be used to stir up paranoia if my slot lives past N1. It can't be investigated (and I assume that a town ascetic is placed into the game to weaken the town's investigative power) and confirming my claim is a waste of a night, so there's always going to be paranoia around my slot.

B: My townflip will probably point to the fact that town is looking in the wrong direction, which I think it is. I am completely serious when I say that I want people to just put Maria and Kraska on ignore D2 and focus on the slots that haven't received much pressure. Kraska is really obvious town and I know I'm going to be the only one who sees that. Maria could absolutely be scum, but she's still a distraction I think, especially when there are lurkers who I can't even read (I think Karnos might be the town one, that's really all I got). More slots need sorting and pressure, not enough work was done D1 because Transcend was an idiot. Starting D2 off with another RVS/AVS actually is not that far-fetched of an idea, that's how badly information starved I think this town is.

C: Hell, if Elyse is town too (which given my track record in scumreads is plausible, this feels like Vedith 2.0 but idfk), then the fact that our wagons are moving at weird paces will help with VCA. In Open 649, I caught the scumteam based on VCA because D1 was centralized by a shitty wagon on town and I happened to push a counterwagon on another townie. Yes, I died before I shared my results, but that's not the point. The two wagons were stuck at L-2 for the entire deadline, and it turned out that it was because the scumteam literally could not do anything to get any of them lynched. What if that's why there's so many vanity wagons here?

D: I think Transcend deserves a good portion of the blame for this horrible gamestate for town, so his slot getting lynched is karmatic justice really. If I survive today, I'm probably not going to be able to obvtown enough to avoid rope in the future, so why not get it done now?

So if the majority of the town struggles to find a viable lynch, I am honestly volunteering to policy lynch myself. If not, I can do a Shadow or Gerry wagon if not Elyse, but I really do not care for lynching lurkers D1. If Maria's wagon gets going and it doesn't look like anything else is happening, I can compromise on it.

[MariaR]

Giga listen to me for once
I'm town you're town and Kraska is town I would love if we lynched in Elyse (a lot less so than before) Sable/Bliz

[MariaR]

The Elyse lynch for me at this point is to keep my townreads alive and I don't see any other lynch in the top 3 that I want but if you want to explain the shadow sr please tell me.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

but i'm scumreading none of those slots

like michel is more likely than not town and I can't read blitz for shit, deadline wagonning them sounds horrible

shadow or gerry are a lot better to me.

I have like literally no reason to scumread Shadow in all honesty. I just expected more from him because of our last game, and his Karnos vote with you was really weird... Other than that his slot hasn't been super helpful, and at least out of the three lurkers (and I really think one of them is scum) he's probably the one most likely flipping scum.

[MariaR]

but i'm scumreading none of those slots

like michel is more likely than not town and I can't read blitz for shit, deadline wagonning them sounds horrible

shadow or gerry are a lot better to me.

I have like literally no reason to scumread Shadow in all honesty. I just expected more from him because of our last game, and his Karnos vote with you was really weird... Other than that his slot hasn't been super helpful, and at least out of the three lurkers (and I really think one of them is scum) he's probably the one most likely flipping scum.

I don't really know what to say I want Gerry to be town and I can't tell if that's friend!me wanting him to be town or I tr him I'd be content with an Elyse lynch still over those 2 because lurker lynches if wrong reset this day

[MariaR]

I think it's really really risky to vote in lurkers where we can get very good info reads on Elyse's flip

[I Am Innocent]

Kraska I'm unsure of now too.

sr me all you want but I promise Kraska and Giga are both town here
I wouldn't vote Kraska I'd have to do a re read on shadow to see if I wanted to vote in Elyse/Shadow

Can you tell me how you feel about Sable/Bliz/Karnos though?

To be honest this game state has felt very stagnant for too long. I take partial blame for it cause elyse was always one of the leading wagons and I left my vote there as I felt confident she was scum. Now not so confident.

I really suspect shadow. When I threw out his name to élysé to get her thoughts he responded I was defending my scum mate karnos. Really was a ridiculous over reaction on his part. So if shadow is scum karnos is town. No way those two are scum together and I lean heavily that shadow is the scum of the two.

Blitz I have found as town posting most of the game. Sable has felt robotic, but I checked out a recent scum game wondering if he is always this mechanical as scum but his play seemed more aggressive. So the difference is enough to give me pause on his slot.

So long story short id kinda like a flash wagon to maybe catch scum unawares. Shadow is my best guess at the moment.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I think it's really really risky to vote in lurkers where we can get very good info reads on Elyse's flip

well yeah, that's why i've preferred an elyse lynch over any, with 1 day left a lurker lynch can backfire

but if people think she's town then I think i'm a better lynch. that's why i was trying to push a 1v1. I strongly believe self-voting is stupid and you know I've lost a game because of it happening, but I really can't see an alternative way to steer town in a better direction if one of us can't get lynched. maybe i'm just not thinking hard enough.

[MariaR]

People change there game a lot so idk if you should base a read on sable due to meta

flash lynching on a lurker scares the shit out of me because 1) Could be a pr 2) If it's really scum they'll prob claim pr anyway 3) We get no info