Open 646 - Semi Nightless - Game Over (D6)

[Transcend]

np took me 3 hours to make so i'm glad you at least read it LOL

[mhsmith0]

Trans do you actually understand the case on tenshii? Because all you seem to be saying there is essentially "he's town" over and over again without any kind of meaningful backup. Where's the actual substance behind that read? Where's the substantive disagreement with the tenshii case?

[Thor665]

This is, sadly, a prod dodge - I have nothing of insight to add to the conversation, so pretty much just saying 'yup., read this'
Except for Transcend's spoilers, didn't even click to open them.
Sounds like they were about what I expected though.

[mhsmith0]

Tenshii apparently just flipped town and lost here
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8321032
I'll take a look at this later tonight.

[Transcend]

The tenshii case to me reads "he didn't lynch karnos, he's scum. He lynched phantom, he's scum". Enlighten me if i missed anything but mislynching isn't worthy of a scum read in my books.

[mhsmith0]

So all the stuff about tenshii being self focused and not doing much in the way of scum-hunting, as well as the plausibly strategic vote hopping, didn't register at all with you?

[Transcend]

I don't think his vote hops were strategic, rather, a genuine attempt to win the game? Your vote hops feel more strategic.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

hghgghghghh

intent to hammer Tenshii

if it's not tenshii, mhsmith goes to lylo anyway and probably gets instalynched regardless of alignment unless scum!Thor/Transcend decides to fuck with me and kills him off instead

[Transcend]

Did my recollection of thoughts i spent 3 hours making at least make you think?

[Transcend]

Or did i waste time could've spent drinking a beer or smt.

[mhsmith0]

It was just a restatement of "I town read tenshii" without actually getting into substance of WHY you tr him or even addressing the actual case against him.

@giga: please wait until tomorow, I wanna read that game I linked sometime tonight.

[mhsmith0]

VC 5 - 3

mhsmith0 L-1 - Transcend, Tenshii
Tenshii L-1 - Thor665, mhsmith0

(expired on 2016-09-15 08:00:00)

Deadline is 9/15, it's a bit boring to wait but I'd at least like to run a compare/contrast first. I doubt it changes my mind but it's worth looking at.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

It was just a restatement of "I town read tenshii" without actually getting into substance of WHY you tr him or even addressing the actual case against him.

yeah p much this, sorry transcend

like the idea was nice and i read through it but i just... don't see how we can lose this unless the truth is really bizarre. tenshii makes more sense to me but i still think mhsmith is viable. town can only lose at this point if it really is thor imo.

also i'm waiting until tenshii posts to hammer

[mhsmith0]

Interesting town!tenshii sequence around
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8296272
In that game. Also made decent to good town posts there at

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p8289560
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p8293239

Though its notable that tenshii was pushed that game (and in fact lynched) as town.

Comparatively, in this game tenshii posted a lot but has generally been uninteresting and avoidant of real scum hunting and game solving IMO.

@tenshii: in http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p8269315 Thor said

So I actually think you're just skimming and asking empty questions.

You responded in http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8269362 that you weren't skimming, you just don't remember stuff. What did you think of his accusation of asking empty questions? Because I look at your questions asked this game, and in genral they don't seem very interesting, and I still agree with his point in http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p8235211 about your iOS being generally empty.

[Transcend]

Then you didn't read the post, or all of it. Like i said you just had to trim the fat. I gave reasons for him to be town. Regardless, the point of the case was intended to get you to hammer smith.

[Thor665]

Sounds like you should have spared the quotes and the fat yourself, and just listed your hard bullet points, because of the two people claiming they read your post, both are claiming the same reaction to it, and at least one is town.

[Transcend]

I wanted to trim the fat to make it easy to see the bulleted points but the BBCode kept messing up and making the quotes hard to distinguish.

[Thor665]

You should have trimmed all the quotes, or put the quotes behind spoiler walls and only stated the bullets in your prime posting.
That's how you get people to read and notice stuff.
What you're doing is good scumplay, because it's obfuscating your thoughts, while appearing like a lot of work.
But it's not good play to actually lynch someone.

[mhsmith0]

Trimming the fat from trans tenshii town case...

Spoiler:

Tenshii has been a tonal town read and none of his posts read fabricated.


The thor / tenshii spat feels tvt but if one person in that duo is scum, it's thor.


rosske's votes with bad explanation > tenshii's weird votes with explanation that is bad but likely to come from newbtown


Nothing changes my read on tenshii at all but i just reviewed his RQS thingie because admittedly when i reread the game 3 times i skipped all the RQS posts. Anyways, I read his experience level. I thought he was a flat out noob, just like I thought Joushi was a noob. It appears Tenshii has some experience so I can't read them in a noob light anymore. I got duped by Joushi but he wasn't anywhere near a solid townread like Tenshii is right now.


Anyways, I think that this is Town!Tenshii solving the game rather than Scum!Tenshii who is manipulating everyone. His actions don't feel that manipulative. And I think all the pushes he's made albeit some of them wrong (There's 9 people that can be mislynched vs. 2 people who can't) were all sincere and were all made by him to achieve his town wincon. I haven't seen him do one thing this game that doesn't make me think he's town.


In post 2472, Transcend wrote:
My read on Tenshii is still the same, now that I know he's had some experience.


Okay Thor let's think of common things scum do to manipulate.

"hey you should vote this guy" is a very common one.

Tenshii DID NOT EVER tell anyone to vote his way. Tenshii did Tenshii's thing which included lots of vanity wagons that got little to no momentum. I feel Tenshii was using his vote to help him personally figure out scum. Unfortunately it resulted in a couple of mislynches and bad reads much like myself. But I'm smart enough to know town is capable of making such mistakes.

This is not a gut read honestly. The townread on Tenshii that is. That is a solid townread I've carried for about two months and nothing's changed from it.

Overall it seems to boil down to a tonal read and a "well I town read him a while ago and I'm not gonna bother to rethink it" bit. I'd also note the last point is bizarre; town behavior is to push for your desired lynch; tenshii not doing so is wolf indicative, not town indicative. Burying your vote on vanity wagons that go nowhere is a nice way to describe a wolf who's trying to avoid scrutiny for his votes and pushes.

[Transcend]

What lynches do you think he didn't push for?

Pretty sure he was steadfast about whenever he voted Phant D1 I really liked that vote, when he voted Luna Fox with me on D2 and when he lynched Rosske with me on D4. His votes compared to the reads he's given seem really consistent to me. What am I missing?

[mhsmith0]

What lynches did you think he DID push for, other than "hey let's not lynch karnos" on d1? D2 he vote hopped, and I don't recall him being much invested in any particular lunch since, other than recently when he was in serious trouble. Like you seem to be suggesting trying to get people to agree with your push and wagon is wolf-indicative rather than town-indicative, which is pretty much crazy.

[mhsmith0]

Also find what from tenshii ISO made you think

Anyways, I think that this is Town!Tenshii solving the game

[Transcend]

How do you think that I think convincing people to vote a certain way is wolf indicative. Pretty sure that on top of my several one liners, I have spilled my heart out with megapost cases to try and get the person I wanted lynched. That's not what I think at all. What I'm saying is that his pushes albeit him not going the distance to get them lynched such as others in this game read genuine and non-tactical. I can sincerely reason with the Phant vote he made d1. Mind you, this was BEFORE karnos flipped wolf so Tenshii voting Phant for potential strategic vote even though PC wasn't Karnos or Io (the leading lynches that day) feels sincere whereas I feel like a scum!him would acquiesce to one of the other lynches and not cause that much of a commotion. Long story short I guess is that I think rather than being town-indicative, pushing someone and persuading others is generally NAI. I don't play the game like "well he didn't explain his pushes super well he's gotta be scum". I play and decipher if the vote they made reads tactical or genuine. And in Tenshii's case I feel he has been very genuine this game. I think I've repeated points several times throughout this post but that's just where I stand right now and how I feel.

[tojam2]

Vote intent registered, Transcend you could have spent those 3 hours drinking beer because I didn't read it either .

[Transcend]

Io vs Karnos might be Town vs Town?

Karnos's posts towards vs Io are absolutely reasonable defenses. And #76 came off as "I know I'm town" rather than "I'm mafia and I want to get rid of the possibility of us bussing." Given that the #70 post was

justified by #140

, It makes sense for why #70 would be done by Town.

Io is grasping for straws but all of that revolves around Io truly interpreting #70 as scum trying to indirectly attack Thor.

This whole argument feels like a long battle of "how hard can I prove these few posts are supposed to be interpreted as town/mafia posts." If this argument kept going, today's lynch will probably come down to whoever won this battle. Which would be pretty stupid.

I still don't get why Karnos is scum. Please don't lynch him when we're like only 2 days into it.

VOTE: karnos for being the first one to post after my introduction!

Nah. This comes off as trying to hop on a bandwagon without trying to form an actual reason as to why Karnos to scum. Also why did you post 185?
VOTE: PhantomCobalt

with that based on what ive seen its karnos and KTL for the scumteam secondary scummy reads on luna and GT (gut mainly)
ANNNNNNND

VOTE: KTS

We real now

pedit: now that you mention that and transcend is not far off of making the list either.

How did you get these reads?

POST MORE TENSHII GODDANG

SUP WIT IT

more anti town then a naked vote near page 2, a call for a quicklynch on page 5 and policy lynch on yours truly on this page?

if you think trying fool you go ahead and vote me but im not gonna let KTL live outside D1. i can settle for a karnos lynch DEPENDING ON THE VC, MOD.

The former two came off as trying to reaction test. The latter does seem bad though. I also hate how KTS keeps saying "I'm obv town" as if it's helpful towards helping him get read.

PC is the main lynch I want right now. Worst case scenario, non-contributing VI is lynched. Best case scenario, scum is lynched. Anything else, I'd have to reevaulate. I've kinda been debating on hopping on the Karnos bandwagon for the past few days, mainly cuz I do think that they plan on fighting to the death and they won't stop attacking each other until it happens, even to Day 2, 3, etc. So the sooner we can stop it the better.

@ Luna, can you explain your reads? All of them? Also how do you keep track of your reads? Do you just keep track of them in your head? Do you write them down on a notepad? Or what?

@ Io, who's Karnos's partner?

@ Thor, who's Karnos's partner?

My 993 was directed towards everybody in general.

@ Giga Not really that. If anything you dodged my 959, but that wasn't a question, so technically it's okay. My point still stands though, you're tr'ing Phantom because you don't see scum!Phantom rvs'ing his partner to L-2. I'm saying that I find scum!Phantom more than capable of doing that if he was scum.

At this point, I'm down for any lynch if it means getting the game rolling again

I agree with the bloc, and we should be getting rid of the scummiest first. The only reason lylo will be hard is if there's a reason for the bloc to collapse in the first place.

Yes - that's why I literally said it would in the post you quoted. "then"

Sure dude. It totally does. Like if I spend all of this time attacking somebody, and I don't have a vote on him, it totally changes what I say. What's your point in bringing it up anyways? Are you saying I'm scummy for doing it? If so, how and why?

Yes, I am scumreading you.
I have not indicated my top scumread though.
Are you saying PC is *not* your top scumread?''

Yea atm Phantom is my top scumread.

@Transcend Why is 1536 scummy?

It's getting late so I'm gonna get off. Gonna post the thoughts I have in my head atm, mainly for myself, but mainly cuz I feel obligated to post something. I don't have anything complete atm tho.

1) Thor's case on me is ass. I'll direct reply to it when I have time but I'm getting off. I'm not dodging it, just postponing.

2) Karnos + Rosske ...

Order of Events:

Karnos votes Io.
Rosske votes Thor
Rosske votes KTS
Rosske asks Karnos why he's not voting Thor.

Why doesn't Karnos vote Thor? It's really weird how Karnos tried to indirect attack Thor but when given the opportunity to bandwagon Thor, he doesn't take it. My main problem with the whole Rosske case is if Rosske is trying to support Karnos scum partner here, he should just be voting Io immediately instead of Thor. I don't get why Rosske would try to redirect momentum towards Thor when there was momentum towards Io. Unless there wasn't momentum there in the first place?? But if there wasn't momentum then Karnos should've bandwagoned along with Rosske's vote on Thor.

3) Karnos + Thor ... I was rereading and stuff. There was one post where Karnos defended himself with "me and Thor can't be bussing" therefore they aren't town. Not sure how viable of a scumteam this is yet. I'll need to think about it more. If this is the team then does it make sense for Karnos to not vote Thor when town!Rosske voted Thor? But then there's the whole indirect attack thing.

Giga + Luna for town.

Re-evaluating Transcend + mh

Also I got pretty apathetic rereading through all of that again. I quitted like 20 pages in, and I skipped all of the walls to get there. I'll probably eventually have to force myself to reread through everything though.

Could definitely post more but I don't want to make another great wall of posts that gets laughed at. Not trimming the fat either. However these posts all feel to me like he's had a genuine mindset towards solving the game and not towards manipulating people.

PEDIT: Well you don't really have to read it lmao.