Newbie 1735 - Banana Split (Game Over!)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

becoz it's obvious that you work alone

He also drinks alone. But that's only indicative of being George Thorogood, not alignment.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I know you're town, and you said to lynch DDD. GM is town who kinda wants to sheep Jae. Jae wants to lynch DDD. DDD is in the scum bucket. Only logical conclusion, really.

But seriously, this just seems like you dementedly scribbled a bunch of arrows on a page from one name to another and claimed it meant something.

[Accountant]

I'm only willing to vote three people today. You're one of them, and a popular wagon. My townreads also want to vote you. The dead flipped townie did too.

I hope you see why I'm voting you.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm only willing to vote three people today. You're one of them, and a popular wagon. My townreads also want to vote you. The dead flipped townie did too.

I hope you see why I'm voting you.

I mean I certainly understand a PoE process, my first post largely featured one, I don't object to GM doing the same. But as surely as I don't object to a PoE don't you think "big wagon, townreads" is pretty lazy and a potential recipe for disaster. Let's say for some reason that I do get lynched today, I'll flip green. I'm sure you'll be all gung-ho about GL/Dragon but if that's not the exact scum team then we're probably fucked. Shouldn't today be about getting it right even if it's just within that PoE and not about doing whatever is easier?

[Accountant]

if you're town then scumteam is gl/dragon

everyone else is town

[Accountant]

let's say hypothetically I became convinced gl/dragon was scum, that would still be worthless because everyone else is perched on you and I'd rather lynch you than sit on a vanity wagon

[goodmorning]

guys why aren't we lynching dragon actually? that's the wagon that got away, not ddd's.

response to dragon case shortly

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

if you're town then scumteam is gl/dragon

everyone else is town

Scum must've gotten some pretty strong power roles if we drew the quad-cop.

[goodmorning]

Okay. Here is my (mediocre) case on DDD:

I'm doing the rest of this with quotes within the spoiler.

Spoiler:

I think this quote of copper's sums up the bad feeling I got from oncilla's posts. Fun fact: I PM'd GiF to ask to replace in when oncilla and Kuroshira were being replaced (obviously I didn't get either slot). I did a quick ISO of oncilla to see what he'd posted so far, and after reading it I was pretty sure that I was going to replace into a scum-slot. It's not what oncilla did, it's more what he didn't do: his attitude was more as if he was looking for scapegoats than someone who was actively trying to find scum. Here's the quote from copper:

Anyway going back to my oncilla suspicions, I was thinking about why my gut wasn't happy with his posting (because on the surface he seems to be scum-hunting well) and I remember a good read serrapaladin gave in a game; most (newbie) town players will go through the thread linearly, they see something, comment about it, move on to the next thing that happened, read it, give their opinion etc... but oncilla seems to be selectively picking out some of the points of contention in the thread and always finding a reason for why that's potentially scummy, I think that could point at a different motive compared to trying to game-solve.

When I first replaced in, I said I agreed with this and I still do.

serra is not correct. Different newbies play differently. It's playstyle. Playstyle is NAI.

Now onto DDD and his first post. I have no particular problem with the levity, brevity and quick catch-up style of his post, just a few things. First, drealmerz's joke, which I know has already been done to death. My issue is that he didn't explain it right away, only when he was under pressure with three votes on him, at L-2. I just don't see this kind of behaviour coming from a townie who assumes everyone understands his townread on drealmerz. Personally I try and explain my reads, and if asked I will explain further. But to everyone except DDD, that joke looked NAI, so I can't understand why he assumed we would understand it instantly. Most people probably thought DDD was joking himself when he said that. Anyway, enough of that.

If anyone didn't understand, they ought to have asked. They didn't. Therefore DDD could safely assume that people understood. This is not hard.

Good votes: Jae, copper, Ast

~~

Checking votes placed.

VOTE: Jae

Although DDD has explained this partially already, I still find it scummy that he votes Jae (out of his "good votes" list) solely because Jae already has a vote on him. I don't see why he'd do this. It's almost as if he didn't want to vote someone who currently had no votes on them. I understand his given reason was "pressure", but at that point a vote and an explained scumread on either copper or Asty/me would qualify as pressure as well. It just seems too opportunistic to me.

This is reachy as fuck. Yes, he didn't want to vote anyone who wasn't being voted; if you have three scumreads of roughly equal strength that's a pretty sensible tiebreaker.

If that were true it would make me an obnoxious and a silly person, so why are you voting me again?

Because I have a bunch of town reads and you aren't one of them.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: copper

This is quite blatant OMGUS, and deserves to be treated as so. DDD completely abandons his "pressure" vote on Jae for no apparent reason and votes for copper. Even if I didn't know it was a reaction test, I would find copper's post weird rather than outright scummy, and I would have asked him to explain his scumread instead of a straight-up vote. And now begins the DDD-copper war.

A. It seems you don't actually know what OMGUS is!
B. Just because you don't find something scummy doesn't mean someone else doesn't - we're all DIFFERENT PEOPLE with DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES.
C. Pretty sure copper had already explained his 'scumread'.

Other points of contention are town-reading Drealmer for 104 (or omitting the reason for why he is town-reading him but mentioning 104), town-reading GM again without much substance and ending up with a scum-read on Jae when his last point admonishes what can only be town Jae not to assume malevolence when misunderstanding suffices.

So I'm scum because I didn't provide exact in-depth breakdowns of my thoughts on Dreal and GM? There's no possible town values for withholding partial information? If you're not detailing every exact read you have in complete detail then you're scum? Pretty sure that's an absurd standard and if you held everyone to it equally you'd have eight scum reads, nine if you decided to evaluate yourself.

I view this as a misrep of what copper was saying there. He wasn't calling DDD out for levity and brevity, he was calling him out for trying to justify his read on drealmerz based on his joke post. Again, a townie would have clarified that that was why he were townreading drealmerz, and would have explained it. But DDD just twisted his words and turned it into an accusation.

No, DDD got what copper was saying there EXACTLY RIGHT. copper said 'there's no substance to your dreal and gm reads' which is exactly what DDD responds to.

So I'm scum because I didn't provide exact in-depth breakdowns of my thoughts on Dreal and GM? There's no possible town values for withholding partial information? If you're not detailing every exact read you have in complete detail then you're scum? Pretty sure that's an absurd standard and if you held everyone to it equally you'd have eight scum reads, nine if you decided to evaluate yourself.

This is a misrep of what he is saying.

Disagree.

When Accountant called DDD out for the misrep, he just replied with a one-word answer instead of talking it out with him, as if he was trying to change the subject as quickly as possible.

Some things are so dumb it hurts to respond to them.

inb4 amished.

Did this one leak out or do we still keep it amongst ourselves in the cool kid club? I scratched my chin over that as well; it doesn't reach the level of critical assessment that I'd usually demand but when I think about it more there's not a good weird that you'd mention, it's almost certainly setting the table for exactly what the Amished tell was found to catch.

Ast was in my initial "good votes" list, I think this solidly locks Dragonfire in it. Scum-copper is still a better vote for now though.

Again, the Amished thing just looks opportunistic. While others, like GM, mentioned the Amished but didn't scumread me for it, you immediately jump on it. As if you didn't find Asty's posts weird too.

DDD's super old-school. Believing in the Amished makes sense from that perspective.

See here's the fundamental issue, everyone else "got" my post other than you. It makes me really skeptical that it was so confusing for you to understand. And instead of asking questions, like I'd expect someone who was interested in the truth to do if they didn't understand something, you went on the attack.

One of the scummiest things I've seen from him. As I've mentioned before, DDD is calling him scum for being "the odd one out". Not everyone else "got" his post, and saying that is just arrogance. In fact, this is quite hypocritical as it was DDD who went on the attack rather than explaining his thought processes.

All of this is, of course, based on the assumption that copper's attack on DDD was a reaction test and that copper is town, both of which I am fairly sure of.

See what I said above about questions and understanding. Also, copper chose to attack DDD rather than question him.

Why does she have an obligation to help someone she's scum reading by providing them reasons to be argued and refuted?

This is also scummy, as he is assuming that people should treat their scumreads as lock scum, and not even consider the possibility of them being town. Townies should always consider that they might be wrong, and the best way to ascertain that is to maintain discussion, instead of writing them off as scum.

That's not what that says at all. That is not it, at all.

Here's the issue, why are you just asking this question of me now? Both you and copper don't bother talking with me, don't bother asking specific questions; you label my post weird and/or scummy and that get further baffled when I attack that. If you were actually interested in the answer to this question, this wouldn't be the first time you brought it up.

As if it was the first time he brought it up. And he should have definitely explained his thought process earlier if he was town.

This argument is still gross for all the reasons in all the places above. You fight fire with fire, for fuck's sake.

No, you and copper apparently can't see it, I have no idea what iron does or does not see and no one else seems to think it's a strange position. But newb-scum have two possible routes they go, they either are lost about how to fake scum hunt and their biggest priority is failing into the background where no one notices them and they can let their partner do the heavy lifting or they chime in to promote a town/town fight, they do not crack jokes unrelated to anything else that would draw attention more attention to them. Or, they know how to fake scum hunt and they are very good and very thorough projecting the right image of industrious scumhunting, however, they almost always lack levity because they're focused on their act and thus don't tell unrelated jokes. A joke like that comes from someone who is very comfortable in their position and new scum almost never is.

I do like this explanation, but it does somehow feel as if he's just brought it up now that he's being accused. Unhelpfulness is not townie behaviour.

R E A C H Y
NOBODY EVER ASKED HIM!!!

Don't forget the part where my initial post is scummy for not explaining everything in minute detail and then when it's explained logically suddenly I just made up those reasons despite the fact that I pretty clearly was willing to go to the mat for the post. So the argument is that as scum, I made up a bunch of nonsense, then instead of treating it as a joke defended that nonsense aggressively, and only later came up with exact reasons that match my initial post. For reasons, I really can't fathom what advantage I would gain from doing this but motivations don't matter in dragon-world. Oh wait, the reason is that Dragon doesn't want to break the wagon he's on despite it going from bad to shite.

Again, his response, as ever, is to call me scum because I'm voting him and misrep what I was saying. Already been through this.

A. No, there are plenty of reasons to call you Scum, and you should stop falsely accusing people of OMGUS if you ever want to be taken seriously [Boy Who Cried Wolf].
B. He's not even talking about what you said, he's talking about what copper said. So the misrep here is all yours.
C. Yes, we have. It's almost like your case is the same three ridiculous things repeated ad nauseum.

VOTE: dragon

Opportunistic vote

VOTE: dragon

I actually had moved him slightly ahead of copper lately on my preferred scum list but I didn't want to break what little momentum we had, big fan of this.

At least Accountant had the guts to say it was opportunistic. DDD's vote is even more so. And that justification is just awful, of course he'd say that. He must be feeling so pleased right now to finally be pushing a mislynch which nobody disagrees with.

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

VOTE: dargon

[RachMarie]

VOTE COUNT 2.3

Debonair Danny DiPietro

(3) JaeReed, Accountant, Dragonfire

L-2

Accountant

(1) GuiltyLion

Dragonfire

(2) Jon_H61, Debonair Danny DiPietro



Not voting: GoodMorning, ironstove,

With 8 it takes 5 to lynch

The deadline is in (expired on 2016-09-26 09:49:24)


I figured you meant Dragonfire, there DDD but I did get a kick out of how you spelled it

[ironstove]

guys why aren't we lynching dragon actually? that's the wagon that got away, not ddd's.

response to dragon case shortly

This post man... it's so scum. If GL isn't scum it has to be GM.

[goodmorning]

By any measure of "that wagon got away," Dragon's got away more.

I get that some percentage of that was me.

[Dragonfire]

Well the issue is that when I am lynched and flip town, you'll probably be next, as I won't be around to argue against your lynch and most people seem to think either you or I is scum. So I'd rather not die,

knowing that my death will likely cause the death of another townie

. I would be fine with my lynch if you agreed to lynch DDD tomorrow after my flip, but it seems like that's not going to happen.

what

It wasn't forever, it was like a day and why would scum need to change their mind? Changing your mind and lynching a townie looks awful, look how much shit everyone is giving GL for it. Why would scum who were safely ensconced on their wagons of choice feel the need to do anything when GL was going to have to decide and take the fall for them?

So you're implying that you know GL is town... only scum know others' alignment for sure. You might have slipped there.

^just to point out that Dragon did a thing he thinks is scummy.
Not like Town never do that, but...

This is a misrep. If you looked closely at my post, you'd have seen the word "likely" in there. I said that my death would likely cause another townie's death, because copper was likely town to me at that point, whereas DDD straight-up implied that he knew GL was town for certain.

My apologies. I really thought you were replaced by DP. It was wake's slot. Sorry again

It's fine.

It's interesting that Accountant flipped his vote to DDD and really just sheeped Jae.

Jae, Dragon, do you feel that DDD is more likely scum than GuiltyLion? The quotes posted earlier of GL demanding control of the town lynch if DDD flips town + Accountant suddenly so willing to sheep Jae is bothering me.

I'm going to UNVOTE: for now.

Personally, I think GM is far more likely to be scum than GL, but DDD is still the scummiest.

jon is town, gm is town, jae is town, iron is town but a dick.

Just out of interest, is there a reason for your townread on jon other than drealmerz's posts? And why do you townread GM?

And with copper alive in this hypothetical world that's four, enough to block any lynch. Furthermore, "my" block of people is actually trying to game solve, you see Accountant defect, you see Jon voting a bit scattershot early, while "your" block of people entrench and refuse to be useful.

If we're actually being hypothetical here, then it's quite likely someone would have died last night, hence only three people in the "block".

That could be true... but only if you're town, which I think you're not. So in the unlikely case that you do end up flipping town, I'll come back to this.

You present bad argument about why I have to be scum because I was the other wagon yesterday. I refute scenario by presenting a perfectly logical premise where I'm town. You whine that my scenario "knows" another player's alignment and misdirect. I give another possible scenario with their alignment flipped and explain why I find the first scenario likely and the second less likely. You then post the above which is the rhetorical equivalent of "nuh uh". Do I think you're actually trying to game solve, no.[/quote]
Your defense rested on GL being town, which I don't know for sure, so it wasn't really that good. Besides, you did imply you knew he's town, so don't deny it. The second scenario you posted, as I literally just said, only makes sense if you're town, and I don't think you are. Is that really so hard to understand?

guys why aren't we lynching dragon actually? that's the wagon that got away, not ddd's.

response to dragon case shortly

After flip-flopping on DDD all day so far, saying you'll vote him and sheep your townreads, then saying you've got intent to hammer him, but never actually voting him, you're now trying to divert the lynch to what you see as an easy mislynch you can get traction on. Then you quote my whole DDD case and literally say "No, you're wrong, this makes no sense" to every single point. And then DDD immediately votes me. Add this to you voteparking on copper yesterday and refusing to vote DDD and I'm pretty sure you're his scumbuddy.

[GuiltyLion]

hi guys, I'm going camping from today until Sunday (although I might be back Saturday night) and I haven't had time to get up to speed since my last post, so this is a prodge slash

MOD - V/LA until Sunday

we have 9 days until deadline, don't rush anything, thanks. have a good weekend all

[JaeReed]

It's interesting that Accountant flipped his vote to DDD and really just sheeped Jae.

Jae, Dragon, do you feel that DDD is more likely scum than GuiltyLion? The quotes posted earlier of GL demanding control of the town lynch if DDD flips town + Accountant suddenly so willing to sheep Jae is bothering me.

I'm going to UNVOTE: for now.

GL might be more likely to be scum, but copper said to not go for GL right away. Would you prefer a GL lynch?

[goodmorning]

being dead doesn't automatically make you right jae

[ironstove]

I'm torn right now between a DDd and gl Lynch.

[ironstove]

I would have loved to see DDd go first on d1 but now I feel like I'm in a 50/50 scenario because of accountant and gm pushing copper. Gm might really be scum.

She's completely ignored my accusations as well to avoid rxn tests and it fucking bothers me a lot my tr of the slot is pretty much completely gone

[goodmorning]

I've ignored your accusations because they're silly.

Not sure what you think you would gain from me saying 'lol, nope' every time you suggest it.

[jon_h61]

@ iron what do his think of GM's telling me 'nah' when I voted you?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Has anyone other than GM and me noticed that Dargon just restates his argument a lot in lieu of doing something useful after it gets taken apart? And that it's immensely frustrating.

[Accountant]

Dragon is in my scum bucket

[Dragonfire]

I would have loved to see DDd go first on d1 but now I feel like I'm in a 50/50 scenario because of accountant and gm pushing copper. Gm might really be scum.

She's completely ignored my accusations as well to avoid rxn tests and it fucking bothers me a lot my tr of the slot is pretty much completely gone

I agree she could well be scum but I think DDD needs to go first.

Has anyone other than GM and me noticed that Dargon just restates his argument a lot in lieu of doing something useful after it gets taken apart? And that it's immensely frustrating.

Who's Dargon?

If you're talking about me, then stop throwing shade because nobody's "taken my argument apart" unless you count GM going "Nah, no, too reachy" to all of my posts in that rubbish wall of hers.

[ironstove]

@ iron what do his think of GM's telling me 'nah' when I voted you?

Well, if you want my honest opinion, I think you're terrible if you're town because if you actually read the thread and came to the conclusion that you came to, it baffles me how your mind works.

You also did a solid job when it came to almost reversing the TR everyone had on your slot. (I wasn't and still am not one of the people TRing your slot). So,,, go you.