Mini Normal 1829 - Game Over

[karnos]

just a comment: titus has a well-established meta of never bussing her partners, yet she was doing everything she could to ensure I could get lynched. Why is she attempting to bus this time?

blitz!=titus.

Same player, but there is probably a reason to use an alt. Maybe titus wanted to change up her meta, and to avoid going into games with bias from the start she created a new account.

In any case, I think the meta argument, especially when coming from the person who would be cleared based on the argument, should be taken with a grain of salt.

[karnos]

blitz read was the same as my kraska read. Am I secretly aligned with kraska too?

So, in your reads list from d1 you put a " next to her name and that was all. And now you are claiming that it was the same as kraska as I was supposed to know that?


Yes, you were supposed to know it. It's a common notation, I think most people are familiar with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ditto_mark

You think town!me wouldn't hammer likely scum maria to save myself?

I think you regardless of alignment would hammer Maria. There was also the fact that kraska was still campaigning for a Blitz wagon and maybe you wanted to hurry up and hammer Maria so there's no chance a Blitz deadline wagon pops up.

I agree it should be NAI. Yet it's the

only thing

used to build the "scum karnos" case. There is really nothing else people are complaining about except the hammer, which I did as town.

Also, it was a Friday IIRC, with some 14 hours till deadline. Knowing my lack of time to play over the weekend, I wanted to hammer while I was fully caught up and able to play the game rather than risk it going to no lynch.

[karnos]

Bleh, screwed up the quotes above.

Regarding the " mark:

Yes, you were supposed to know it. It's a common notation, I think most people are familiar with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ditto_mark

[karnos]

i feel like town deserves to know this

i wasn't scumreading karnos D1 because of a game that was ongoing at the time. There, Karnos felt a lot more slimey and manipulative than he is here (where he seems more useless and close-minded), but I can't honestly townread him, so I put him at null. With a lot of obvtown yesterday and karnos's hesitation to join my wagon at first, it made sense that he was a Blitz buddy but I wasn't as sure about him as I was with Gerry (who flipped town). And now that 646 is over, I can't help but acknowledge that Karnos is responding to pressure a lot differently there than he is here. There has to be a reason...

For the record, I think only possible teams are Elyse/Shadow, Thor/Shadow, and Thor/Karnos so? Leaning towards Thor/Karnos atm. Elyse/Karnos is technically possible but very unlikely considering Shadow's result on her... Pretty much ensures that Karnos fakeclaimed vanilla as a Doctor or doctor encryptor or something, which seems unlikely.

Kraska, Nero, and Michel are all super obviously town. I know I'm town for a fact. So PoE dictates that the pool

has

to be out of those four, and Elyse/Thor doesn't feel like SvS for sure. Haven't thought much about Shadow/Karnos but I can't really see it. Thoughts?

karnos

, srs question: you

are

an ISTP right...? like i remember you took the quiz last game but does that personality type suit you in your opinion? this is a very important question in judging your alignment.

That sounds right, but I'm not going to take the quiz again now to confirm. You can lookup the old game the same as I could.

I think it's giga and shadow. Giga was repeatedly defending shadow, but then here seems to be ready to bus him, as shadow is in several of the potential scum teams listed.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

This was pre flip and you were on the wagon too. If you didn't think maria was scum, why the hell were you voting her?

you hammered before she had the chance to claim or give last words?? i'm not the only person on the wagon that thought the hammer was bad, don't single me out just because you are confbiasing on transcend being stupid.

but anyway i don't think you can be scum w/ shadow and no one makes sense as your partner so i guess you're town... which kind of sucks

what do you think of nero's guilty on Shadow anyway? And what are your thoughts on Thor?

To me, there's something really deceptive about giving a readlist with low-information and not doing it in a Ranger-style or something. When you look at the post in his ISO, it looks like he's providing reasons for his reads, but in reality you get a bunch of nullreads and filler.

The point of low-information readlists is to provide a

what

and create a discussion topic. If you say, show you have a controversial read, you give people the opportunity to press upon the read and ask you about it. That's not at all what I saw from Karnos's readlist. Instead, it tried to look like a high-information readlist and answer both a

what

question and a

how

question, except without actually doing it. I know Karnos isn't a complete newbie and if he were to write a readlist, I would have expect him to not give a bunch of nullreads with nonexistent reasoning EOD1... Again, it looks like fluff to make an ISO look better.

This is scum logic. Attacking my "poor" read list, while other players haven't posted any read lists at all? This is really such BS logic as well, town who don't have 100% solid reads day 1 are attacked. OTOH scum who can safely commit to a few town reads because, DUH, they have perfect knowledge of who is town, are able to post in a way that somehow looks more "town" than the town players because of backwards logic like the above used by giga. Yes, my reads were loaded with "null". Day one, no special knowledge, no secret mason conclave, no innocent villagers, I absolutely won't have any strong reads the vast majority of games. Occasionally there is some crazy slip that makes someone obviously scum, but outside that my reads day one will be pretty flimsy. As well, click my wiki link. Nothings been edited recently. It's a big part of my philosophy that sharing all reads constantly is a net-negative. I play the same way in every game as town. Again you like to use meta when it favors you and ignore it otherwise. I could show you several games where I am reluctant to give detailed reads and I flip as town, and I could also show you a game or two where I gave constant updated reads with details of every player in the game where I flipped as scum. It's vastly easier to make up a solid read list as scum.

multiple players had posted readlists, wth are you on... i mean i agree that it's easier to fake reads as scum, but EoD1 you should have very few nullreads and if you have non-null reads, back them up or don't write anything.

how is my logic backwards though...? and where are you getting the assumption i'm avoiding meta when it doesn't help me?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

ok sure it's giga/shadow

bus my partner with me

[Shadow_step]

Giga, who are you going to lynch after I flip town?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Giga, who are you going to lynch after I flip town?

Karnos.

Because then I'd think it's Karnos/Thor because Elyse/Thor or Elyse/Karnos are very unlikely.

[karnos]

Okay. Finished reading.

I had a strong suspicious of a giga/shadow scum team at the start, and giga repeatedly defended shadow, making me even more confident of it. Then suddenly giga turned on shadow, put him as a major potential scum, and then voted him.

Scum protecting scum, and then realizing it was a losing preposition because after my lynch, I flip town, they both incriminated and lose. So giga decided to switch to a bus strategy.

VOTE: shadow

The only nagging doubt I have is that on the offchance shadow is town, he could actually clear me. But scum would obviously kill him as a nightkill if that was the case, leaving my alignment in doubt, and putting town in a messy situation on day 4. Best play is to roll the dice and lynch shadow.

[Shadow_step]

Giga, who are you going to lynch after I flip town?

Karnos.

Because then I'd think it's Karnos/Thor because Elyse/Thor or Elyse/Karnos are very unlikely.

What about Michel? Why can't he be scum? And why is Elyse/Karnos unlikely?
You want to lynch me on the basis of an assumption when we should be lynching scum, are you seriously that dumb?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Elyse/Karnos is unlikely because there's probably a scum doctor, and for all the claims to work out, Karnos has to be a mafia roleblocker, which doesn't make sense with the set-up.

i'll talk about my michel townread when i have computer access

I am pretty sure that the only way Nero shoots you and fails is for a buddy to protect you. So, I'm pretty sure you're scum.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I had a strong suspicious of a giga/shadow scum team at the start, and giga repeatedly defended shadow, making me even more confident of it. Then suddenly giga turned on shadow, put him as a major potential scum, and then voted him.

Scum protecting scum, and then realizing it was a losing preposition because after my lynch, I flip town, they both incriminated and lose. So giga decided to switch to a bus strategy

actually this makes no sense

i've been asking for the vig to out because I thought the vig would have a guilty from D1... Scum!me already knows that the guilty is on Shadow, because I'd have to be an ascetic doctor if I were scum with Shadow. So either I'd subscribe to the roleblocker theory my partner is proposing or I would have bussed Shadow D2 because the scumteam already suspected a vig and Shadow would have had to be the target if they shot D1.

[Shadow_step]

I am pretty sure that the only way Nero shoots you and fails is for a buddy to protect you. So, I'm pretty sure you're scum.

Or he was roleblocked or there is a scum JK who targetted him or he is lying about targetting me because he is just cocky.

Who do I vig tonight, Karnos?

[gigabyteTroubadour]

scum jk makes as much sense as scum rb, both have guns and can all be caught via gunsmith

[karnos]

you hammered before she had the chance to claim or give last words?? i'm not the only person on the wagon that thought the hammer was bad, don't single me out just because you are confbiasing on transcend being stupid.

She claimed mason, essentially, and later "unclaimed it" as a VT. Are you really thinking her 3rd attempt at a claim would offer up some new insightful information?

It was some ~15 hours till deadline, and I knew I wouldn't be very active over the weekend. Compare to Sat where people were ready to hammer me when we had a full 7 days left to deadline, and I wasn't active... talk about a double standard.

but anyway i don't think you can be scum w/ shadow and no one makes sense as your partner so i guess you're town... which kind of sucks

what do you think of nero's guilty on Shadow anyway? And what are your thoughts on Thor?

Talk like this makes me worried that shadow could be wrong. But if not shadow, who? I thought nero was acting like scum day one, but can't bluff a nightkill. Maybe he is a SK or something, but then town is in a pretty crappy position. Better to assume the game is winnable and nero is actually the vig he claims to be.

multiple players had posted readlists, wth are you on... i mean i agree that it's easier to fake reads as scum, but EoD1 you should have very few nullreads and if you have non-null reads, back them up or don't write anything.

how is my logic backwards though...? and where are you getting the assumption i'm avoiding meta when it doesn't help me?

Yes, multiple players had read lists, and multiple players did NOT have read lists. Why attack a (poor) read list rather than attacking someone who didn't post any read list at all? I feel like you are just trying to confuse the other players with this BS.

You are claiming blitz couldn't be bused because titus hates busing, but you ignore my meta where I happily bus scum and it would be totally out of character for me to hard-defend a scum partner.

[Shadow_step]

scum jk makes as much sense as scum rb, both have guns and can all be caught via gunsmith

but they CAN block and there are enough false negatives because of me and NC.

[karnos]

actually this makes no sense

i've been asking for the vig to out because I thought the vig would have a guilty from D1... Scum!me already knows that the guilty is on Shadow, because I'd have to be an ascetic doctor if I were scum with Shadow. So either I'd subscribe to the roleblocker theory my partner is proposing or I would have bussed Shadow D2 because the scumteam already suspected a vig and Shadow would have had to be the target if they shot D1.

Well yeah, it makes no sense in a world where scum aren't allowed to lie about their role in the thread. Sadly scum are allowed to lie, and it's not as nonsensical as you are trying to make it look.

[Shadow_step]

Also Jks don't have a gun :/
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Doctor

[karnos]

I mean you claim ascetic, the one person who could confirm your claim is shadow and he decides to NOT investigate you, seems oddly convenient.

[Shadow_step]

ebwop

scum jk makes as much sense as scum rb, both have guns and can all be caught via gunsmith

but they CAN block and there are enough false

negatives

positives because of me and NC.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

i don't know your meta that well, i'm not deliberately ignoring it?? honestly i can't even say i know titus's that well

i mean you bussing partners was brought up in 646 but it wasn't really a critical point or something i saw firsthand so it didn't really cross my mind

why should i be attacking players who don't post readlists again..? you telling me who i ""should"" be suspecting is very reminiscent of 646 btw

actually this makes no sense

i've been asking for the vig to out because I thought the vig would have a guilty from D1... Scum!me already knows that the guilty is on Shadow, because I'd have to be an ascetic doctor if I were scum with Shadow. So either I'd subscribe to the roleblocker theory my partner is proposing or I would have bussed Shadow D2 because the scumteam already suspected a vig and Shadow would have had to be the target if they shot D1.

Well yeah, it makes no sense in a world where scum aren't allowed to lie about their role in the thread. Sadly scum are allowed to lie, and it's not as nonsensical as you are trying to make it look.

how does that refute my argument at all...? shadow's role literally does not matter here, and there is very likely a doctor in the scumteam... take out "asectic" from it if it makes you happy, there's no difference in the point

@Shadow, check the page for gunsmith. Only docs and traitors lack guns.

[Nero Cain]

I mean you claim ascetic, the one person who could confirm your claim is shadow and he decides to NOT investigate you, seems oddly convenient.

this but I think that says more about Shadow than Giga.

[karnos]

I am pretty sure that the only way Nero shoots you and fails is for a buddy to protect you. So, I'm pretty sure you're scum.

Or he was roleblocked or there is a scum JK who targetted him or he is lying about targetting me because he is just cocky.

Who do I vig tonight, Karnos?

I read that as "who do I vig tonight, do i vig karnos?" not as in him asking me my opinion.

But obviously if we lynch shadow, vig giga.

5 days till deadline though, I don't think these decisions need to be made immediately.

[Shadow_step]

@Shadow, check the page for gunsmith. Only docs and traitors lack guns.

Jailkeeper is a doc variant only ffs, why are you being thick. Check paranoid doc

[gigabyteTroubadour]

paranoid doctors =/= jailkeepers

the former is told they're a normal doctor and is bastard, latter is considered a different role