Newbie 1744 - Game Over

[Human Sequencer]

@Spyrex "What are your thoughts on the back and forth this page?
What do you think of Gideon?"

If you're referring to the interaction between Jason and Copper, I stated my overall thoughts earlier. In more detail, I believe Jason is just an irritable person. Copper reads town to me. I think it was silly for Jason to rail on Copper how he did, but I also think it comes from a town mindset. That is in no way set in stone, however. His future actions may change the way I view this argument in hindsight.
I don't have much to think about Gideon. I think his reaction to RVS isn't alignment indicative, simply experience indicative.

My input on the Frank/Toto/Me situation:
If we are tossing up lynching me or Frank, distancing myself from my own perspective, I think I would be the better lynch. Considering I know I'm town, and I'm the one that fucked up by making a simple mistake associating us together, that clears Frank when I flip green, whereas if Frank flips green, then I still have the red card of """"""""lying"""""""" that others may use on me later in the game. Of course, considering I know I'm town, I'm 100% sure I'm the incorrect lynch.
But besides that, Toto absolutely reads scum to me, enough to absolutely warrant a vote and L-1. Of course anybody who hammers this early in the day deserves scrutiny, and I don't think we need a roleclaim yet.
In post #82, he is so intimidated by Frank's vote he changes his whole plan. Originally he intended to lynch Frank, but coming across even the slightest resistance

from the person he's trying to lynch

, he backs off non-committally and tries to convince Frank that I'm the better vote, probably trying to appeal to Frank's sense of self survival. Earlier, he sets up a plan of who to vote, which from scum!toto's perspective, can be seen as a roadmap for his planned townie lynches.

VOTE: Toto

Kaladin's slot is also suspicious, if what Copper says is true. Could you cite some evidence for that, for I am very curious.

Also, Frank, I am truly sorry for casting a scum light upon you with my screwup.

[Human Sequencer]

Also, if anybody could teach me multiquoting, quoting across pages, and multiquoting across pages, I would be forever grateful.

[Toto]

@Human: Well my whole argument (albeit weak) on Frank&You is that, as you point out, you are scum partners. I don't really have anything else than that so lynching one or the other "made sense". I hadn't thought about it in much detail as you because that was not my actual plan. I just wanted to get a few reactions. Like what would frank say about lynching you, for example. That's why I changed the target. And more importantly, I wanted to hear what other people would say. We can always lynch one of you as a last resource. So lynching you now doesn't make sense.

My case is Gideon+Spy on actually also weak. Mostly was a reaction test, which I'm now convinced he passed. Especially due to the fact that he doesn't seem to understand why I changed my vote to you.

What I was looking for here with this (my evil plan to kill everyone) is actually scum trying to get advantage of my dire situation, and the 3rd vote, for a stupid reason, is rather suspicious.

VOTE: TownCop

[Human Sequencer]

This is only more suspicious to me. Again, as soon as Toto is challenged, he switches his vote to another person with flaky excuses for his past vote.

Reaction test is a pretty convenient explanation for throwing accusations around, especially considering that we didn't get much helpful information out of it. Regardless, unless you plan to pull the 'reaction test' excuse a third time, your vote on TownCop was fucking stupid. You can't just throw a vote on somebody else and expect us all to flock onto them and analyze them to get the heat off of you. If you're town, you're playing pretty badly. (Yes I am totally aware I fucked up as well before. Again, I'm sorry)

Copper, what do you think of Toto in light of previous events?
Jason, what do you think of Toto in light of previous events?

[Toto]

Ok, keep the heat on me then? Either way, TownCop is scum.

[TownCop]

You know. Telling me that defeats the whole purpose. Are you sure you just want to see how I react under pressure? or you just want to get me closer to a lynch?

Well that's the way I've seen it done in previous mafia games - people say that they are reaction testing.

[Toto]

You know. Telling me that defeats the whole purpose. Are you sure you just want to see how I react under pressure? or you just want to get me closer to a lynch?

Well that's the way I've seen it done in previous mafia games - people say that they are reaction testing.

Bad excuse. You don't say you are about to reaction test someone. You do it after the fact. Like me.

[copper223]

A lynch at this point is very premature.

@HS
Open a second or however many tabs you need and copy paste the quotes you'd like to make back and forth between the post you are making and those you are using to "store" your quotes.

This is the statistics thread about the newbies: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=39739

In particular:

Player	Player Replacement Rate
Town Newbies	45.8%
Scum Newbies	59.7%

Is what is relevant.

You did not screw up unless you and Frank are scum buddies.

I am working on my toto read a the moment, the initial impression was that he was clumsily trying to game solve hence town but I've read your points and if he is throwing names out there without conviction he could be scum.

@Toto
TownCop has posted four times, what makes you so sure of his alignment?

[Toto]

@copper: see the reason for putting me at L-2. Also, statistically the 3rd vote is more likely to be scum. Specially with a bad reason.

[TownCop]

@Toto Well it's even worse when you reaction test without saying so, get yourself to L-1 and then claim "I was reaction testing", and then town loses a ml from lynching a town. And in the first place, what is so suspicious of reaction testing?

Besides, statistics about the 3rd votes aren't going to be that much different to 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th votes. And definitely not enough reason for a vote.

[copper223]

@Toto
That my be true on EM but it constantly shifts on mafiascum depending on where people are looking for scum (regarding the third vote), it is also common to create wagons so that you can do VCA (vote count analysis) later on; that means I believe TownCop when he says that's what he saw in other games (which doesn't make him town), it does however make your case on him pretty weak.

@Toto/HS/Frank

[copper223]

@Toto/HS/Frank
You seem to be trying to solve the game as quickly as possible (which is something that points more to newbie town rather than newbie scum), but you risk over-posting and helping scum hide behind your mass of content, try to condense your thoughts if possible.

[Human Sequencer]

Don't worry Copper, I'm not trying to force a lynch, and I'm aware that we have a shocking amount of inactivity from a select few players.

[Huntress]

SmoothBlue replaces Kaladin.

[SmoothBlue]

Hi all,

Just some quick information about me. Timezone is EDT currently. I will be very active throughout the week, and should be online more than enough through the weekends.

I am new to Mafiascum, therefore I'll likely botch some tags and also ask for some lingo/try and research it myself (Did not know about RVS, VI, and I believe VC = Vote Count?).

[Toto]

TownCop. I'm not suspicious to your will to reaction test me. It is suspicious that your excuse for voting me is "I want to see how he reacts under pressure". Which doesn't make any sense. Because if that's what you really wanted you would not say that.

So that means you are voting me for another reason.

Also a 3rd vote is non-committing. Safe. If I get lynched "is not your fault". You didn't start it, and you didn't finish it. Perfect for scum.

@copper: on me over posting. I think the problem in this game is the underposting from other people.
@copper: I guess the newb card on 'I've seen it in other games' does weaken my case.

Still, the only reads I have are:

1) HS+Frank: for the "scumslip" early on.
2) Gideon+Spy: for Gideon "protecting him" (I'm less convinced of this). Gideon is acting as newbtown. I think.
3) TownCop + ???: for the suspicious vote on me. (I have a strong, albeit debilitating, gut feeling I caught scum here)

[copper223]

Welcome to the game SmoothBlue.

That's correct, VC is vote count, feel free to ask about the lingo if there is something you don't understand.

Now the question is, was your slot a mafia replace out? To answer that, what sticks out to you from the pages that happened before you replaced in?

[Human Sequencer]

Yo @Huntress!
I know I'm being a pedant about this and I apologize, but could you please update post #3?

[copper223]

1) HS+Frank: for the "scumslip" early on.
2) Gideon+Spy: for Gideon "protecting him" (I'm less convinced of this). Gideon is acting as newbtown. I think.
3) TownCop + ???: for the suspicious vote on me. (I have a strong, albeit debilitating, gut feeling I caught scum here)

Okay toto, I think you are more likely town than not.

What you are doing here however is scum hunting by association, that is a very dangerous thing to do because you are looking for and finding tells about a player that assume the alignment of a second one to justify the case, when you don't know if that's true.

If I assume one of you is scum, I can probably make up pairs for all the rest of the player-list and come up with some sort of case for why that would hold.

Some players on mafiascum will just tell you to not scum hunt by association until you get a definite flip on a scum player, I think that's a good way to play when you're new to the game.

Focus on one player and tell us why you think he is scum, if the case is good enough you'll get to see his flip and then can go on to make your case on his most likely buddy.

[SmoothBlue]

TownCop. I'm not suspicious to your will to reaction test me. It is suspicious that your excuse for voting me is "I want to see how he reacts under pressure". Which doesn't make any sense. Because if that's what you really wanted you would not say that.

I think it makes perfect sense. Putting someone on L-1 definitely puts more pressure on them and it is a better way of getting "a reaction" rather than randomly voting at the beginning of the game.

[Human Sequencer]

If timezone is relevant, I'm AEST but am usually available from 12AM-6AM in that timezone, which I'll usually use daily to contribute.

@SmoothBlue
Towncop put toto at L-2, I put him on L-1.

[copper223]

I'm on going to check back this evening after work (which for me is in about 4/5 hours),

I'd be pretty peeved if someone hammered Toto in the mean time so please don't.

I do think his wagon is pretty useful though, checking back on why everyone voted for him and if it holds up in your mind is time well spent, especially for you Toto if you're town.

@HS
Read carefully how Toto replies to me when I tell him his case on TS may be weak, especially the part where he says "still these are all the reads I have"; doesn't that strike you as town trying to be useful?

[SmoothBlue]

Now the question is, was your slot a mafia replace out? To answer that, what sticks out to you from the pages that happened before you replaced in?

There was a lot of content to go through, I read most of it last night (Read into other games as well, preparing myself for a game) but I'll need to re-read it all again to ensure I haven't missed anything.

Gideon's defense was very odd considering there was only a couple votes down. He definitely is a new players, but I feel he is milking that "new player card". I'd like to see more content out of him.

Jason was very aggressive on the wall page between him and Copper. I don't believe he had to be that aggressive at that stage and so early on in the game.

Since Toto was on L-2, he really hasn't defended himself very well. I also feel its very difficult to defend yourself, especially if a game has a lot of players tunnelling. His words are not making much sense and he really seems to be trying to push the investigation to another player. It's too early for me to tell his alignment yet.

Copper, the past few days it seems like you've placed yourself as a leader role within the group in my opinion. This is due to the conversation with Jason and then thoughtfully explaining to everyone your reasoning and putting others on the defense. The only thing I dislike about your playstyle right now, is you keep confirming players actions as town actions, which as a leader, is a dangerous thing to do because newer players who wagon agree with you more. If you are town it's an awesome advantage for us. If you are scum you can give that extra shove to town to lynch town players.

I'd like to see more content from Spy.

@Jason, since Copper has voiced his opinion on your alignment after the discussion, what are your thoughts on Copper's alignment?

[SpyreX]

Yes there's no need for a hammer at this point.

Remember when i was talking about reaction tests? This is a baby version of that.

P-edit: I'm engaged, but deep meaningful content will come much later. If copper is the 'leader' I'll be the 'observer' for the time being

[Toto]

What you are doing here however is scum hunting by association, that is a very dangerous thing to do because you are looking for and finding tells about a player that assume the alignment of a second one to justify the case, when you don't know if that's true.

While I generally can see how this type of hunting can be more difficult my only reads so far (except for TownCop) happen to be suspicious associative displays. I wish I had more to give you. I blame the lack of content.