Newbie 1735 - Banana Split (Game Over!)

[goodmorning]

Idunno what I could have done to save you after the speculation started on you being the cop clear when you clearly were. Ideas? I mean it was also painfully obvious to me D2 that if you were town you were doc with a save on me so I assume that falls true for the scum team as well? So I don't know if there was anything I could do myself.

I did consider fakeclaiming something like BP or JK to make it even harder on scum and try to draw another shot N2, but in the end I thought it'd fuck with the town PRs too much for me to do so. So I kept being allergic to gambits as I usually am. It's not really a good thing to teach in newbies anyway I think.

DDD's vote on me D2 looked a lot like he was trying to work out what happened with the nightkill and wanted to run me up to get info on it. Either through my claim or someone else's. That also contributed to my certainty that DDD was scum.

I was already starting to be paranoid that Scum had no-kill gambitted so it's probably very good indeed.

--

@copper: Contrary to popular belief, I'm not by the computer 24/7. Also contrary to popular belief, the IC's job is actually nothing more than to explain the game to newer players, truthfully answering their theory questions. We are not expected to be particularly correct, nor to lead the town.
RE: People telling Mina what they think of me: you're welcome to, but I'd hope you keep it short because being the Newbie ListMod is a pretty massive timesink as it is.

Also, while we're at it, I have indeed played plenty of games outside Rome. I've found that 9p is the size I prefer, and you may notice the Micro Queue these days is 90% "Idea" Mafias which really barely qualify. Besides, this is where I get to see the up-and-comers who'll be kicking everyone's asses come next year.

I wouldn't have had half as much of a problem with your play had you not smothered the game by posting SO MUCH. I just checked - you STILL have the most posts in this thread, despite being the D1 lynch, and they got SO LONG by the end of it. I usually say 25% more posts than the next-highest-posting slot is borderline too many; at one point you had, I believe, 100% more posts. And they were mostly not one-liners, either.

Also: If you had said some of the things you said to me to certain other people on this site, you would currently be chewing on a Jiffy ban.

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@Dragon: Before I forget, I wanted to apologise. It can be difficult making cases at times and it sucks when you're sure but they somehow seem to out-talk you with the audience you're courting. So: I'm sorry for that. I was feeling a bit pigheaded this game; it's nothing you did.

--

@iron: I wish you'd tried to explain a bit more. Thank you for loudly scumreading me though, that was helpful in a lot of ways.

[goodmorning]

I should say: Scum hardly ever no-kill gambit, because it's bad play for the same reason Town shouldn't NL D1. I'm just exceedingly paranoid as a PR.

[copper223]

I find it funny that the best reply to your problems with my play is your own signature GM.

My case on you not being a fit IC was based on the following:

a) You failed to hammer a non-confirmed townie because you had a town-read on them (this is before you late hammered), that to me showed lacked understanding of the theory of this game, which you wouldn't then be able to teach.

Failing to hammer in time is human and I don't hold you accountable as an IC for it (I think you might have subconsciously wanted not to check the thread because you really wanted me to be wrong and the evidence was mounting to the contrary but that's again not related to your IC status and my mistake as well for making you feel that way, together with your own charming game personality).

b) Allowing DDD to harass the newbies and creating a pretty hostile game environment because of the way you were reading the game, that included telling Iron he was useless and allowing DDD to harass "Dargon" just for the sake of it.

Can you do me a favor and PM me those names? I really don't want anything to do with people that don't understand the difference between shit talking someone's play (which is probably not a good strategy as this game suggest, but definitely within the rules) and shit talking them as a person, which is indeed at least replace if not ban worthy.

[Accountant]

I don't think GM can take all the blame for creating a hostile game environment

[copper223]

I am not proposing that she does, in fact I explicitly said I take my share of the blame wrt SE's and IC hostility, I do think it's particularly egregious when you do it to newbies though and I did not participate in that.

One of the IC's duties is to welcome newbies on the forum and if you're prone to let your reads color how you interact with them in a negative way I'd rather someone else with more patience do the job.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

b) Allowing DDD to harass the newbies and creating a pretty hostile game environment because of the way you were reading the game, that included telling Iron he was useless and allowing DDD to harass "Dargon" just for the sake of it.

This is not the IC's responsibility, this is the responsibility of the mod. I will also add that I don't think I was out of bounds with "Dargon" but that in my frustration with iron I probably stepped over the bounds with him (calling him useless was fair, some of the other things, not so much), so sorry iron.

[goodmorning]

If I had thought DDD was too far out of line I would have asked him to rein it in. I didn't and don't. (It is also, as he says, not the IC's job.) People get frustrated. If you can't deal with someone frustrated saying something slightly too harsh in the heat of the moment, this is probably not the game for you. That's part of how we play Mafia here, and it's a completely appropriate thing to see in an introduction.

Is it good play to hammer someone you think is Town before it becomes absolutely necessary? I really don't think it is.

I'm saying you drowned the game, smothered it. That has nothing to do with your alignment and everything to do with your play - and like I said, that's not good play.

iron was absolutely playing uselessly at the time, and that was a completely fair thing to say. I've actually quite enjoyed his play elsewhere.

I'm going to say the person who created the majority of the hostile game environment was the first one to start throwing insults that were a bit too personal.

[copper223]

You don't have the competence to judge what is good and what is bad play GM... I see it is a waste of time, let's happily agree to never play with each other again.

[Dragonfire]

I'm fine with the PT being released!

Great game town! This was immensely frustrating for me as scum, Jae I hope to never draw scum against you again. I definitely agree with DDD that I should have just hammered Dragon on D1 without giving intent, and it was also a mistake to move the roleblock off of GM and onto jon - I was pretty sure jon was the cop and thought we would benefit more from not having an investigate. Didn't think GM would protect Jae, that was well played by her (although I'm curious, were you PR-reading Jae?)

To be honest, I thought GM had a PR-read on both Jae and DDD due to certain comments she made over D1 and D2. Why did you think jon was the cop to be specific? Surely there could have been four options for a possible PR to be?

GL, I can't take credit there. Iron and copper did all the work, really, and all I did was refuse to move. Dragon also did a good job casing, even though it was a little awkward I felt like it got the point across and proved it was a read he believed in.

Yeah my case wasn't very good, but I've never really made a proper post-by-post case before so there's always a first time. I literally just threw it together to get the lynch off me, so it was always going to be somewhat haphazard.

@Dragon
Your reads were also spot on so good job there.

Your play-style is similar to mine, so obviously it's the best . I do think there is work to do wrt reacting under pressure, your posts about being very unsure of DDD because it would lead to a lost lylo come off as super scummy to most players, just accept that you have to be right on DDD and believe in your read, if that doesn't happen you will have to take responsibility for it and give your best at lylo to make up for that mistake, you can't fence sit.

Also scum showed you this game that you never give up, they had a small chance despite so many players reading them correctly, you also always have a chance!

Same as Iron I don't think you need other newbies unless you like it here,

I think I only made one or two posts about being unsure of DDD, and nobody called me out on them, but thanks for the tip. I was actually feeling rather doubtful due to the number of people strongly defending him and the pressure that I'd probably lose the game for town if I wound up lynching another townie. But then I went back over why I scumread him and it was still solid, so I stopped doubting.

Also, I have a minor confession to make. When I made my L-1 post on D1, most of you thought I was giving up, and most of you also thought that I was saying that I would rather myself be lynched than copper. That was a misunderstanding, and I deliberately allowed everyone to believe that because I didn't want to be lynched or to have people go back to thinking I was scum because of a correction I made. What I actually meant with regards to copper was that I didn't want town to lynch him on D2 after seeing me flip town, and also that I wasn't prepared to vote him to save myself (which people didn't misunderstand). Sorry for the minor deception there, guys.

b) Allowing DDD to harass the newbies and creating a pretty hostile game environment because of the way you were reading the game, that included telling Iron he was useless and allowing DDD to harass "Dargon" just for the sake of it.

This is not the IC's responsibility, this is the responsibility of the mod. I will also add that I don't think I was out of bounds with "Dargon" but that in my frustration with iron I probably stepped over the bounds with him (calling him useless was fair, some of the other things, not so much), so sorry iron.

I'd support that. Although I did find some of the things you said wrt me insulting, they weren't personal insults but more insulting my play, and that's all in the past now. I don't think you went out of bounds with that, but I agree that with iron, it went beyond calling him useless and that was crossing a line.

I'm saying you drowned the game, smothered it. That has nothing to do with your alignment and everything to do with your play - and like I said, that's not good play.

I'm just interested - why did you consider that a scumtell when you first brought it up? I don't see prolific posting as alignment-indicative; it's the content that matters, not the volume. I don't agree with what you said, but I can see why you're saying it; I couldn't see why you thought he was scum for it.

iron was absolutely playing uselessly at the time, and that was a completely fair thing to say. I've actually quite enjoyed his play elsewhere.

I agree with this, his play was better elsewhere, but that said, he did improve a lot over the course of the game.

[goodmorning]

@Lion: I missed your question earlier. No, I didn't especially PR-read Jae, I just didn't see anyone else as Town enough to bother with.

@Dragon: This is actually two different things. Him drowning the thread is just bad play. The thing I scumread was him drowning his own content. If you make your posts long enough, fewer people will read them, in depth or at all. Who doesn't want their posts closely examined?

Also, about your minor confession: knowing when to shut up is actually a huge asset for a player as either alignment and is not a bad thing at all.

[JaeReed]

GM that could have been rectified with 2 minutes checking his meta to double check that it's a personality trait rather than scummy. :/

[GuiltyLion]

To be honest, I thought GM had a PR-read on both Jae and DDD due to certain comments she made over D1 and D2. Why did you think jon was the cop to be specific? Surely there could have been four options for a possible PR to be?

Oh it was mostly this:

I think if it is known that there is a cop in the game, no-lynch also becomes more viable, and even moreso if the cop potentially had a N0 investigation.

in context with the larger post 43, it felt VERY MUCH to me at the time that drealmerz was trying to soft some kind of power role or was at least thinking from that frame of mind. Also it was established that you and JaeReed were VTs (and iron very likely so as well for his intro post), so between PoE between jon/Accountant/gm I figured gm was likely a doc and jon was the cop. I remember I had gm as a PR because of her responding to Jae that she was not going to be lynched - could have been WIFOM I guess but it felt genuine when she did it.

Accountant tricked me actually, didn't really expect him to be the cop up to when we killed him, so props to Accountant for that, and props to DDD for convincing me to kill Accountant regardless.

[GuiltyLion]

also I think goodmorning is a great IC. She was IC in my first game here and I still enjoy playing with her every time. I'm not really interested in getting more involved in the conversation beyond that, but I do want to vocalize that I like goodmorning both in terms of her play and as a person.

[goodmorning]

I agree that baselines can vary.

[Dragonfire]

@Lion: I missed your question earlier. No, I didn't especially PR-read Jae, I just didn't see anyone else as Town enough to bother with.

@Dragon: This is actually two different things. Him drowning the thread is just bad play. The thing I scumread was him drowning his own content. If you make your posts long enough, fewer people will read them, in depth or at all. Who doesn't want their posts closely examined?

Also, about your minor confession: knowing when to shut up is actually a huge asset for a player as either alignment and is not a bad thing at all.

Thanks. I did feel slightly guilty about concealing things as town, but I do feel it helped both me and the town out in the end so it's fine.

[ironstove]

@Iron
You could probably teach some of us about reading players so I have nothing to say here other than congratz.

Tactically though I have a few remarks:

If you suspect someone on the wagon you are pushing may be scum, don't out that read on the same day unless it changes who you want to lynch, bring the lynch you want to achieve home first and then re-evalute after the flip, "don't criticize your party".

Your play-style lives or dies on it's reads, and as you saw D2 when you started to (understandably) doubt your DDD read that could have been a big problem going forwards, if that's your style of choice be aware of it's weakness and expect a scum push on you the longer the game goes with incorrect reads on your part.

Cheers, you don't need to play newbies so I'll see you around in other forums.

@Dragon
Your reads were also spot on so good job there.

Your play-style is similar to mine, so obviously it's the best . I do think there is work to do wrt reacting under pressure, your posts about being very unsure of DDD because it would lead to a lost lylo come off as super scummy to most players, just accept that you have to be right on DDD and believe in your read, if that doesn't happen you will have to take responsibility for it and give your best at lylo to make up for that mistake, you can't fence sit.

Also scum showed you this game that you never give up, they had a small chance despite so many players reading them correctly, you also always have a chance!

Same as Iron I don't think you need other newbies unless you like it here,

Thanks for the kind words, but I need the newbies, I play a horrible scum game and my town game needs improving in its diplomacy.

It's understandably difficult to play as scum with my playstyle because I generally pick someone to hard commit on after getting my reads, and as scum you either have the choice of tunneling a town or tunneling your partner for a bus, either that, or I can try to let town lead themselves to mislynches, which makes my playstyle easily distinguishable between town!stove and scum!stove.

I'm hoping to continue studying other people's scum games, and I like the way DDD played his scum. Overall, I need to become more like him so players like Accountant and GM town read me as scum.

It's interesting you mention end game, because my end game is extremely weak as both scum and town as well. I am usually lynched as mafia or mislynched as town if it's a 3-way I'm just very bad at convincing people I'm town regardless of my alignment...

[ironstove]

Also to town, I wasn't intending to antagonize anyone, so sorry if it came off that way. There were times things felt very frustrating because I could not see other people's POV nor them mine, so maybe harsh word were exchanged, but it's all done in fun.

I admit I might have ruined the enjoyment of the game for some people which made them disengaged, so I'll try to work on not being such a prickly pine.

[ironstove]

There were a lot of subtle things I missed as well on my first read, like GM/Accountant softing PRs, and I want to pay more attention to the D1 interactions and how copper was able to come up with the PR guide prior to being lynched.... Also pretty interesting that he ended up getting hammered over DDD, but I do believe much of it had to do with the Accountant/Copper argument that spanned for 5 pages.

[ironstove]

b) Allowing DDD to harass the newbies and creating a pretty hostile game environment because of the way you were reading the game, that included telling Iron he was useless and allowing DDD to harass "Dargon" just for the sake of it.

This is not the IC's responsibility, this is the responsibility of the mod. I will also add that I don't think I was out of bounds with "Dargon" but that in my frustration with iron I probably stepped over the bounds with him (calling him useless was fair, some of the other things, not so much), so sorry iron.

You insulted me? Hmm. I thought that was just scum!DDD trying to deflect and using some ad hominem... I need to go back now because nothing in this game offended me, but I was infinitely frustrated by GM and jon's gameplay like facepalming while reading posts level frustrated

[copper223]

@Iron
Definitely tunnel on townies in most games, once you reach the latter part of the game you'll have to work out a good defense to survive which also varies depending on the player-list and the game.

Some tries that come to mind are planting a fake claim early on and claiming when you have to, bringing up your meta and showing that this is how you play as town as well so you're sorry that you've had an off game but x is scum and you really don't want to lose, having a very good case prepared (and leaking it naturally) for why someone else has to be scum now. Whatever you do, be bold at lylo's and mylo's, you need to with your style or people will notice the difference.

Also key not to lose mylo's and lylo's is managing to manipulate the play-list so that the right players reach that point in the game giving you a much better chance.

[Accountant]

@iron: With your playstyle, as scum you need to lead town to believe you're stubborn town who thinks he found a smoking gun on someone else. Lock your vote onto vanity wagons that will never be lynched and tunnel them until town gets irritated and starts to tune you out.

[copper223]

I like that strategy, could work fine at least for the next game.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

b) Allowing DDD to harass the newbies and creating a pretty hostile game environment because of the way you were reading the game, that included telling Iron he was useless and allowing DDD to harass "Dargon" just for the sake of it.

This is not the IC's responsibility, this is the responsibility of the mod. I will also add that I don't think I was out of bounds with "Dargon" but that in my frustration with iron I probably stepped over the bounds with him (calling him useless was fair, some of the other things, not so much), so sorry iron.

You insulted me? Hmm. I thought that was just scum!DDD trying to deflect and using some ad hominem... I need to go back now because nothing in this game offended me, but I was infinitely frustrated by GM and jon's gameplay like facepalming while reading posts level frustrated

I mean I wasn't insulting you just to insult you. It was also to project an air of confidence, "look how casually I dismiss this other player, I don't need him because I'm that clearly town (or have a PR)", it was also setup to undermine any actual arguments you might have made later. But even when it's doing game related things there's still a line of good taste and I do think I crossed it twice.

[Accountant]

my fav part of playing mafia is watching the players who wanted to kill each other kiss and make up

[goodmorning]

@iron: With your playstyle, as scum you need to lead town to believe you're stubborn town who thinks he found a smoking gun on someone else. Lock your vote onto vanity wagons that will never be lynched and tunnel them until town gets irritated and starts to tune you out.

acct i accidentally this as town sometimes



tho tbf i'm not often wrong on those ones