Newbie 1744 - Game Over

[Gideon]

Ok, correction, I do know, and I still get strong scum vibe from SmoothBlue. If I were a gambling man...

[SpyreX]

See i swear. This just feels town to me.

Gideon without a cc as we know the setup there's 0 chance of him being scum.

[Gideon]

See i swear. This just feels town to me.

Gideon without a cc as we know the setup there's 0 chance of him being scum.

Ok sorry to play "noob card" - what is cc?

[SpyreX]

Counter claim. In essence, claim something that is counter to his role

[SpyreX]

So if you look at post one, only a tracker, cop or jailkeepee could work. No gambit could be made here

[Gideon]

Ah ok. Thanks.

Also, sorry, I forgot this one.
"- 166, he puts TownCop to L-1 with seemingly lame reasoning. I know you clarified later this was a reaction test. This seems conflicting with you earlier, where you were super against early lynches. Did you know you were putting him at L-1?"
Honestly no. Wasn't paying attention. I don't see why anything but the "hammer" matters though... isn't it just a matter of when we're online? Did I miss a wiki article on L1s and scum reading?

"- Gideon, why were you hesitant to make accusations in 47? And why did you ask the question at the end of 158?" My early behavior was very foolish. I was still figuring out the quirks of everything and had just read about distancing, I guess.

No, not playing the noob card for anything I've done recently... only my first like 5 posts I'd like to be forgotten. >_>

[SmoothBlue]

Yea. Coppers line of thought is transparently easy to follow.

Assuming this is all on the up and up, which still rankles, I'm ready to go with #2.

VOTE: jason [\b]

I'd also like to make it very clear i wasn't shocked at the pr claim but I'm surprised it's legit.

Spy, you make no sense.

You are ready to go with your #2 (assuming I was your #1) but you also evaded being on my wagon.

Shortly after you state that you arent surprised I had a PR claim, but was surprised it is legit?


Even if you are a new player to Mafia, in Matrix 6 where you know all of the possible roles, it would be

stupid

to fake a PR claim. Even a new player playing Mafia as scum would and should realize this.

Why did you avoid joining my wagon early? You had every reason to?
- My thoughts are people would be looking back at my arguments (like they are now) and would notice I had it out for you. Joining early wagons shows signs, as we can see by the huge reaction of voting TownCop on statistics and how he handled the Toto L-1. You're experienced though and had avoided my wagon in case it came back to bite you, possibly hoping for a lynch and to stay off the vote counts, staying off the radar.

I claimed a PR and it is legit, now you're not surprised that I claimed a PR, but surprised it was legit.
- Basically you are calling me

stupid

. As per above. Otherwise you were trying to get everyone to lynch someone who has a PR?

[SpyreX]

Stupid to eliminate the stronger pr (note you are on the diagnoal) if you are scum? Versus hoping a vt claim keeps you alive?

My saying i was surprised isn't saying lynch you. Once again, in this very page, i said you're clearly town without a cc

[SmoothBlue]

This is only more suspicious to me. Again, as soon as Toto is challenged, he switches his vote to another person with flaky excuses for his past vote.

Reaction test is a pretty convenient explanation for throwing accusations around, especially considering that we didn't get much helpful information out of it.

Regardless, unless you plan to pull the 'reaction test' excuse a third time, your vote on TownCop was fucking stupid. You can't just throw a vote on somebody else and expect us all to flock onto them and analyze them to get the heat off of you. If you're town, you're playing pretty badly.

(Yes I am totally aware I fucked up as well before. Again, I'm sorry)

Copper, what do you think of Toto in light of previous events?
Jason, what do you think of Toto in light of previous events?

Please see the bolded post.

@Frank
I was the spearhead of the Toto pressure, and I am very against a Toto lynch right now.
I understand where you're coming from, and Toto screams nothing but scum to me. However, we have a whole eleven cocking days left before we're forced into a vote.

We need more Jason, Gideon, TownCop(!) and Spyrex. Spyrex has chosen to remain as an observer for now, which irks me, but there isn't much I can do about it. The others have no excuse for being so lax.

Jason, I understand you haven't been at your computer (to my knowledge) since I last asked, but what is your perspective on Toto?

Gideon and TownCop, what do you think of Spyrex's inactivity?

TownCop, do you think I'm scum or town? Is there a real life reason for you being so inactive or are you unsure of what to do in the game? Is it something else?

Vote: TownCop

until I am given a satisfactory answer for his meager five posts in thread.

@Toto
What was a bad thing for me to say? Please be more specific.

@HS
You were one of the first people to jump on the Toto wagon. You had good reasons. It's funny how within 38 posts you went from the bolded part in Quote 1, to unvoting and joining exactly what you said everyone wasn't going to do. (Which funny enough, many did vote TownCop)

What are your thoughts on Toto now?

[SpyreX]

And when i decided it was time to vote, for real, you'll note i said i would vote for you except its not a great idea to hammer without a claim.

I mean this is not even read between the lines a little stuff

[SmoothBlue]

Stupid to eliminate the stronger pr (note you are on the diagnoal) if you are scum? Versus hoping a vt claim keeps you alive?

My saying i was surprised isn't saying lynch you. Once again, in this very page, i said you're clearly town without a cc

In my original quote, you said "claim a PR" not claim VT. The issue with claiming a doctor as scum is if someone is a non-strong PR and in a seperate column, they could reveal and douse the scum that way.

Also there is no diagonal in Matrix 6, you should know this....

[SmoothBlue]

The issue with claiming a doctor

The issue with claiming a strong PR***

[SpyreX]

Am i being punked?
A1,B2 and C3, the strongest town prs, are on a diagnoal. It is in post 1. Claiming one as scum going down causes the existance of the other to be known. Short of somehow getting it lynched in a cc, it's the most damage a scum on the way down can do.

I fully expected a pr claim because i thought you were scum. I'm shocked it is real. This isn't some kind of deep revelation.

[TownCop]

1) Why did you say towncop was ‘throwing accusations everywhere when in fact he was only accusing YOU?

Immediately after he was accused, in #197, he posted this:
"Current reads:
Copper: Towny
HS: Slightly Town
Toto: Slightly Town
Jason: Slightly Town
Spy: Slightly Town
SB: Slightly Scummy
Gideon: Scummy
Frank: Null"

Basically calling 6 people less than town.

2) How do you reconcile that 'the most accusations seem to have come from Toto and TownCop' and next you say 'Before TownCop was accused, he was rather quiet and uninterested in scum hunting'. So he was throwing accusations everywhere, but at the same time he was uninterested in scumhunting?

I meant that in #197 he started being all investigative but before then he would just accuse people of being town/scum without reasons. "Copper seems quite town," "I'd like to see how Toto reacts under pressure," "Gideon does seem quite scummy to me. Constantly changing votes without sufficient reason and just "agreeing" with HS (& spy) to place me at L-1." I guess this is a weaker point.

3) How long have you been playing mafia and where?

I've played Town of Salem, so I thought I knew how guilty people act... much faster pace there, I guess.

I think I was asked for a claim, so here it is; I'm a vanilla townie. Please, don't worst-case-scenario me, use this vote on somebody who's harmful.

1 - Accusations most often are indicative of people reading the person they are accusing as scum... and I only had 2 such reads. Very rarely does one have certain town reads earlier on - more often they are "slightly town" reads - somehow you have decided that a town read is an accusation. This reason just does not make sense. It seems like you scum slipped earlier on and now you are stuck when questioned about it, and have to use some nonsensical arguments. I'd like more explanation about the "throwing accusations around".

2 - At the start of the game there's not much to work off. Copper seemed like he was leading well - nothing concrete. I wouldn't ever use the word accuse accompanied with town. Again, it seems like you scum slipped and now trying to get your posts interpreted in a different way. And after this "back filling of reasons", you forgot that the post I made ("Gideon does seem quite scummy" was made after you voted me, thus negating your point about my change in accusation). Regardless, "quiet and uninterested" still conflicts with "accuse people".

[TownCop]

Ah ok. Thanks.

Also, sorry, I forgot this one.
"- 166, he puts TownCop to L-1 with seemingly lame reasoning. I know you clarified later this was a reaction test. This seems conflicting with you earlier, where you were super against early lynches. Did you know you were putting him at L-1?"
Honestly no. Wasn't paying attention. I don't see why anything but the "hammer" matters though... isn't it just a matter of when we're online? Did I miss a wiki article on L1s and scum reading?

"- Gideon, why were you hesitant to make accusations in 47? And why did you ask the question at the end of 158?" My early behavior was very foolish. I was still figuring out the quirks of everything and had just read about distancing, I guess.

No, not playing the noob card for anything I've done recently... only my first like 5 posts I'd like to be forgotten. >_>

The vote which puts someone at L-1 does matter. It leaves them prone to be quick hammered by mafia or town, often it forces them to claim. It is a risky vote as town, yet you used dodgy reasoning to justify it. Even if you did not notice initially, there is no chance that it would have take you such a long time to realise and unvote.

Since you are relatively new to mafia I can partly understand some of your posts, especially the initial ones. However, this not a reason for

specifically

ignoring my posts, which is indicative of scum

I still have questions unanswered. Can you respond to my posts about why you weren't reaction testing? Obviously you were not reaction testing: you did not do anything to reaction test me after you voted,

and now claim that you did not notice you placed me at L-1

. One has to notice that they placed the person at L-1 if they claim they are reaction testing, yet no unvote nor reaction testing analysis in the same post. A lot of contradicting posts.

[Toto]

Counter claim. In essence, claim something that is counter to his role

He would have had to say so earlier in order for it to have any credence. This would result in instant lynch IMHO.

[Toto]

One has to notice that they placed the person at L-1 if they claim they are reaction testing, yet no unvote nor reaction testing analysis in the same post.

Are you admitting L-2 is not a reaction test, then?

[copper223]

What Spyre is saying is correct in theory SB, if you are about to be lynched claiming a stong PR makes sense in isolation, at least you may get a trade with an actual PR once they react to your claim in a way that gives it away or best case they actually don't lynch either you or your CC for fear of making a mistake.

That said I agree with Toto in this specific instance, you can't reasonably claim anything other than VT as Gideon here and be believed, he should have cc'd soon after SB posted if that was his plan.

Along that line, I understand this is a newbie, but how can you possibly have SB as scum and be trying to read people? Gideon's reply that posting a read-list with a lot of maybe towns is equal to accusing a lot of us also doesn't convince me at all, like I don't believe he is this bad...

[copper223]

@Frank
If you can't post once a day because of the RL situation you should consider replacing out.

[TownCop]

One has to notice that they placed the person at L-1 if they claim they are reaction testing, yet no unvote nor reaction testing analysis in the same post.

Are you admitting L-2 is not a reaction test, then?

No. Either L-1 or L-2 will work as a reaction test. However, as most reaction tests are done at L-1, it makes sense for him to realise such (at least consider and check) when he is posting about him doing a reaction test. I think Gideon fully intended for a L-1 reaction test from the start, and knew so when he voted me.

[Toto]

Gideon is in deep shit. I don't think claiming VT is the optimal strategy in this situation for scum, neither is a CC.

[Toto]

No. Either L-1 or L-2 will work as a reaction test. However, as most reaction tests are done at L-1, it makes sense for him to realise such (at least consider and check) when he is posting about him doing a reaction test. I think Gideon fully intended for a L-1 reaction test from the start, and knew so when he voted me.

Ok, either he is lying about not knowing the L-1 thing like you say, or he didn't know if it was going to be L-1 or L-2 but was reasonably sure it was not going to be a hammer. Wouldn't scum in this situation be more careful?

I can sympathise with the latter because I had a similar situation at the start when voting Spy.

[copper223]

For those that are not satisfied with a Gideon lynch, find a credible alternative.

As I said, I don't believe this is newbie play, I think he is making reads up and that's why he still had SB as scum despite SB claiming tracker, that's why he didn't care about the claim and if he needed to counter claim or confirm it and the first thing he asked when he rejoined the thread was is: do you have questions for me? And that's why his wagon swaps look patchy and his explanations don't work chronologically, as TC, Toto and I pointed out in the TC and as Chaos pointed out in the SB case.

[Human Sequencer]

This is only more suspicious to me. Again, as soon as Toto is challenged, he switches his vote to another person with flaky excuses for his past vote.

Reaction test is a pretty convenient explanation for throwing accusations around, especially considering that we didn't get much helpful information out of it.

Regardless, unless you plan to pull the 'reaction test' excuse a third time, your vote on TownCop was fucking stupid. You can't just throw a vote on somebody else and expect us all to flock onto them and analyze them to get the heat off of you. If you're town, you're playing pretty badly.

(Yes I am totally aware I fucked up as well before. Again, I'm sorry)

Copper, what do you think of Toto in light of previous events?
Jason, what do you think of Toto in light of previous events?

Please see the bolded post.

@Frank
I was the spearhead of the Toto pressure, and I am very against a Toto lynch right now.
I understand where you're coming from, and Toto screams nothing but scum to me. However, we have a whole eleven cocking days left before we're forced into a vote.

We need more Jason, Gideon, TownCop(!) and Spyrex. Spyrex has chosen to remain as an observer for now, which irks me, but there isn't much I can do about it. The others have no excuse for being so lax.

Jason, I understand you haven't been at your computer (to my knowledge) since I last asked, but what is your perspective on Toto?

Gideon and TownCop, what do you think of Spyrex's inactivity?

TownCop, do you think I'm scum or town? Is there a real life reason for you being so inactive or are you unsure of what to do in the game? Is it something else?

Vote: TownCop

until I am given a satisfactory answer for his meager five posts in thread.

@Toto
What was a bad thing for me to say? Please be more specific.

@HS
You were one of the first people to jump on the Toto wagon. You had good reasons. It's funny how within 38 posts you went from the bolded part in Quote 1, to unvoting and joining exactly what you said everyone wasn't going to do. (Which funny enough, many did vote TownCop)

What are your thoughts on Toto now?

I jumped on the Toto wagon and pressurized him because I believed his behavior was suspicious and/or stupid. It took a little while for me to realize that Toto probably isn't scum and is probably just silly. At this point, I feel like Toto is a VI.

I had good reasons to vote for TownCop, too. I wanted to prod him out of inactivity and get him playing the game, which worked. He is now more active, and I believe he's town.

My vote is my vote, I put it wherever I want regardless of what everybody else is doing. None of my votes have been done without extensive reasoning-- I've always posted a reason why.

I'm satisfied with a Gideon lynch, despite Spyrex's defense. He reads scummy to me, and I don't trust his intelligence enough to work out that a CC would be the optimal play.
More to the point, I also believe he was potentially deciding whether to do that or not aroundabout post 396. We don't have a credible case on anybody else, and we don't have enough time to properly investigate frank and Jasomega, who are next on my suspect list.

[Human Sequencer]

1) Why did you say towncop was ‘throwing accusations everywhere when in fact he was only accusing YOU?

Immediately after he was accused, in #197, he posted this:
"Current reads:
Copper: Towny
HS: Slightly Town
Toto: Slightly Town
Jason: Slightly Town
Spy: Slightly Town
SB: Slightly Scummy
Gideon: Scummy
Frank: Null"

Basically calling 6 people less than town.

This is fucking pathetic by the way. Anybody who takes this seriously is pretty OMGUS.

It's very clear to me that you simply forgot that you mixed Toto and TownCop in post 205, and didn't bother to read back on it. So instead you decided to manufacture out an answer that will make the town happy, even though that answer is as dodgy as the devil.