Mini Normal 1848 — Game Over!

[TwoFace]

Town Creeps would be exceptionally bad and would also be refusing to even look at his own play for why people SR him, and I don't see why someone like that would be playing mafia.

That's very common on this site though. That's a dumb reason to think he couldn't possibly be town

[TwoFace]

To me he falls into that too scummy to be scum. He's an easy target. Lynchbait if you will.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

You should give that another look. There's no way I could test his V/LA as you seem to imply I was doing in your second line and also miss the V/LA as you believe I do in the first line.

TwoFace, please link me right now to where you already discussed your view on Copper. I can't find it.
Regardless, what incentive does scumCopper have to do that?

Drone worries me. I'll explain why later, if it becomes relevant. I'm just signposting this now so it doesn't look like I'm talking out of my ass later on.

Was it when he asked Creeps why should the town keep him? If so, that read kind of off to me as well.

[MortFeld]

Ok I'll accept that it's common on the site, especially since I did the same thing yesterday.

[copper223]

@Mort

Spoiler: Misa

The LAMIST comment she made is especially bad if this is a TvTT because at the time she made it the thread was dominated by LUV (partially), TF and you questioning me, so my wagon looked like the better one to hop onto and her scum motive in that scenario is pretty clear, her position also doesn't look genuine because the LAMIST accusation was pretty weird in of itself and because most of the players that have since commented have either stayed neutral or picked my side of the argument.

If one of you 2 were her buddy I would expect her to ignore us in a scenario where it looked like you were already doing fine without her help, there is little incentive to post there and most new scum players would be afraid of associations with one of you later on along the road. If you are both town though she can turn around and blame you in case I get lynched.

Spoiler: TB

TB goes back to what I said about the likely-hood of one of you guys being the opportunistic scum to jump on my wagon. A number of players have raised good points on him as well including yourself.

Spoiler: Chaos

From the newbie I played with him where he was scum and from reading his games Chaos is not a hard busser, but he wanted Misa lynched pretty badly when he was active, it's likely that if she is scum he is not.

Spoiler: Creeps

The way Misa kept her read open on Creeps when she made that LAMIST comment, if that was a: "these are the wagons I am preparing to jump on" kind of post, pretty much implies Creeps would be the other patsy she is willing to mislynch here together with me.

TL;DR: You and TF being town makes Misa more likely to be scum, the rest of the reads cascade, other than TB which is a separate issue.

[MortFeld]

Awesome, thanks. I am feeling progressively worse about my own play but it's good to see what type of legwork people do to move forward. Will be trying my best to be pro-town and not anti-town as the game moves forward.

[Toto]

VOTE: Think big
Pressure is a town's best friend. So shall we create it? Yup

I don't like the rationale for this vote. You want to
Pressure him by putting him at l-3 and tell him you are doing this for pressure. How is that going to work?

@hs/copper/chaos: see some resemblance?

[copper223]

I think TC wouldn't be too happy with the comparison.

TC is a logical player that follows his win-con, I don't think Creeps can be analyzed the same way...

[Naomi-Tan]

Hmm.. you know.. If reds are being quiet and lurking you guys would be making the game easy for them.. your not really working together.. I kinda been quiet cause this chaos seemed to source from an argument I didn't care about and I had no real leads due to its focus.. but you guys are all jumping on each other.. in a kinda over zealous way. I didn't really post much yesterday and no one even mentioned it.. just saying that it would benefit us if we all calm ourselves a little and try to be a bit more objective. Now I only got around 20m so.. here is some of my impressions so far. given that no one has even talked about me yet consider these all 'fair' in the sense of assuming I am not red they will be entirely uninfluenced by interactions.

MisaTange - Not really sure on them mostly I think its bad play Green but there is some thought behind it. can't get a clear read here right now but I guess over all its slightly more green than red.

ThinkBig - I feel they might be red, but I wanna see what they do when there not V/LA

Toto - I feel they also might be red, I feel there green game has more than they put in so far.

Lohikäärme - honestly. I don't remember them so they can't be great... null

Drone - They are likely also green though I disagree with there reads. I just think the emotion they brought with the entrance was real and probs was the same kinda frustration I expressed when I gave my read on the old situation

copper223 - I think there Green. they give a little less than others but what they give is pretty good

Human Sequencer - Also think they are green. they are pretty much like Vert-slim.

MortFeld - Hmm.. I think they are red.. They antagonised both sides of the maria Creeps rather than going one or the other... which looks more like they are just trying to get a miss lynch rather than find reds..

Lil Uzi Vert - I think there green. good solid posting and looking at stuff

TwoFace - They read kinda greenish. I think i'm not a good judge here though.. So.. ima wait for more content

ChaosOmega - honestly. I don't remember them so they can't be great... null

Creeps20 - they are bad green... no way they are red... its just too bleh!

VOTE: MortFeld

[MortFeld]

Too many experienced players are scumreading me for them all to be scum. Feels bad.

[MortFeld]

I also don't see why Misa and Creeps can't both be scum.

[Drone]

Naomi's totally right with her analysis of the state the game is in.
We both agree that we disagree about each other's roads but that's something to one's interpretation.
Naomi, TwoFace in depth reads if I may?

@Mort
You explained a bit about your frustration and emotional posts, could you share with me your trail of thoughts? Especially the interactions with Copper.

Can we not lynch Creeps today? I actually want him on day 2.
Wonder what I can get from him.

[Drone]

Not roads, reads *

[MortFeld]

Interaction with Copper was, in order:

-Copper's vote pinged me because it felt like a pointless vote with his explanation, for 2 reasons: he thought Creeps was town, and he was going to unvote at L-1.
-Copper pointed out that he didn't think Creeps was town, and that unvoting at L-1 is perfectly valid that early.
-I accepted both of these, but the discussion between him and TwoFace made me think the lynchbait distinction was important. Well, first I thought it was just semantic, but I did have an issue with specifically this - why would you pressure lynchbait, if you already know they'll react scummily (this is a misconception in retrospect - you pressure anyone acting scummy to see what they do)
--Copper said that this was me coming up with a new reason to scumread him. I disagree - the reason is the same (parked vote), this new support for the reason was just something else I thought of while he was arguing with TwoFace about the definition of lynchbait.
-Copper said that any scum under pressure will react differently to the pressure than town will.
-I pointed out that while this is true, a weaker player like Creeps could mimic a scum reaction as town, and scum might pressure him in order to find something like this. I was

not

saying that Copper himself was doing this - the point was just to support the idea that pressuring lynchbait so described has no purpose.
-The remainder of the argument from Copper's side was under the impression that I was accusing him of this. This misconception (which was warranted honestly since my argument was wrong and my case on him weak to begin with) plus his abrasive tone made me not want to drop it.

Hope that explains it. I feel bad for wasting town's time, since even if Copper is scum, that interaction doesn't do much to prove it.

[Toto]

Toto - I feel they also might be red, I feel there green game has more than they put in so far.

I could say the same thing about you. I, like you, am also having trouble following the discussion.

[Toto]

Toto - I feel they also might be red, I feel there green game has more than they put in so far.

I could say the same thing about you. I, like you, am also having trouble following the discussion.

[Toto]

(sorry for double post)

[MortFeld]

I was also completely unable to keep the big picture in mind since I was reading the game while maintaining two other tasks at the time - what I did keep in mind were the minutia of my arguments, which didn't and couldn't say anything about alignment.

[Toto]

I think TC wouldn't be too happy with the comparison.

TC is a logical player that follows his win-con, I don't think Creeps can be analyzed the same way...

I think understand what you mean here. However:

1) That was one of TC's least logical moments.
2) I still don't see the good intentions behind the posts I saw with other newbtown that were playing bad. Like you say the guy is just trying to stay alive today.

How do you propose we analyse him?

[Naomi-Tan]

Toto - I feel they also might be red, I feel there green game has more than they put in so far.

I could say the same thing about you. I, like you, am also having trouble following the discussion.

yeah it could just be the state of the game.. I'd like to not judge on meta but... it happens. Hopefully we do shift a bit as players seem to be trending away a bit.

[MortFeld]

I'm very happy to not be so combative, I did not have much fun arguing with Copper.

[Naomi-Tan]

Well... my read on twoface is mostly meta. When he has played as green before he played kinda like this...

[MortFeld]

He played like this in 1833 as green too.

[Naomi-Tan]

I love the reaction most my posts get.. the long silence posting something that just goes on for a long while.. Its a thing..

[Toto]

TB's wagon is probably a dead end until he is back from VL//A