Micro 657: Vanillite Mafia (Game Over!)

[Aeronaut]

And that's theory you'all find anywhere

[Postie]

Aero, it's completely natural for a towny to be suspicious of someone's motives for making a push on them. You know you're town, and especially when you're new you tend to be arrogant and assume everyone else should know it too, so you end up being intensely suspicious of anyone who questions that fact because

why are they trying to lynch a towny dammit

. This is what I'm seeing with DH, and the way he's going about it feels incredibly genuine because of the fact I can see several layers of thought and paranoia; I don't see why it matters if that's within a short span of time or not. I don't see him being able to fake this whole thing as scum.

I'll respond to the rest of this stuff in the morning.

[shannon]

Sorry for my absence today, I've been laying a path (boring but necessary - pro tip kids, put off home ownership as long as you can).

Super quickie catch up before I go off to an early night of sleep. So glad to see the game actually becoming a game, I don't get it when people just lurk out. Like if you don't want to play, don't sign up

Hi Wyvernite!

Yay welcome!

I would like to hear more from algebra, as I feel his alignment will come rather naturally to everyone if he just posts more content. I'll do a read over again tomorrow when I get the chance, it's hard to process everything when it's as quick as lackluster as I feel it currently is.

I'd like to see more content from EVERYONE

, no one is really explaining reads to the full effect that I'd like. Or really sharing hard reads at all.

I get that it's early into the game, but you have to start somewhere.

You have hit on the head the reason that I kept on posting while everyone was lurking out and being replaced. Indeed, you have to start somewhere, and I would never claim that my early game reads list was the most thorough thing going, only that I hoped to give others something to respond to. If no one chose to respond, I don't know how I'm responsible for that? I don't want to make bold, controversial statements just to get a reaction, there are enough players of that style in this game as it is.

It seems like a 'thing' has been made about whether my non-lurking counts as evidence for a town read. (And whether I count as an experienced player?! I'll say on that front that I feel very much like I have the L Plates on). I will save everyone the task of checking my wiki and just say that activity for me is NAI. The only time I've ever lurked was as VT in a large game where I'd wake up to like, hundreds of new posts, most of which were about absolute crap. In that one I found it hard to get a word in, so I basically opted out until late game. Otherwise, I enjoy mafia, I like playing, and playing works best when people participate. So I post any time I have anything to say, as any alignment. It's NAI.

@Dark Horse, re: this comment - "Her activity posts are among some of the laziest content you can attempt to provide in order to "look busy." They're more scummy than town, as it makes a person look like they're participating without actually having to produce any content. "

I am not sure what more I could have posted during a period where no one else seemed to be playing the game? What would you have done in my place?

I think a big reason we have such opposite reads is because I guess we see things as differently indicative. I don't remember if you're originally from offsite or maybe just have different experiences and play differently, but usually abandoning reads to jump onto a popular wagon is seen as scummy almost all of the time. "logical progression" or a clear thought process and actions is something that's almost always seen as very town-oriented; scum have a lot harder time explaining their reasoning for doing things or sometimes there's not a clear motivation or thought process involved because they're making up justifications as they go along.

I agree with this, and I think you're in a TvT battle.

[shannon]

Aero, it's completely natural for a towny to be suspicious of someone's motives for making a push on them. You know you're town, and especially when you're new you tend to be arrogant and assume everyone else should know it too, so you end up being intensely suspicious of anyone who questions that fact because

why are they trying to lynch a towny dammit

. This is what I'm seeing with DH, and the way he's going about it feels incredibly genuine because of the fact I can see several layers of thought and paranoia; I don't see why it matters if that's within a short span of time or not. I don't see him being able to fake this whole thing as scum.

I'll respond to the rest of this stuff in the morning.

I will go further and say that not only does it seem genuine on DH's part, it'd be bad strategy if he's scum.

A cursory glance of my first five or ten posts in any game will show exactly the same behaviour he thinks he picked up here, i.e. I'm a bit weird and I don't know how to person in mafia yet. (Probably posts like this are not personing but let's just go with it). Not to mention, a quick look at my wiki would show that I've never been lynched. Unless the scum team are silly, or not doing any research, they'd have to know that I'm not a good target for a D1 quick wagon.

So - I think DH is town, and he is/was genuine in his assessment of me. The worrying thing to me was always that he is appearing to line up lynches based on my flip, and I'm a tad worried that he seems to be following the wagons. But! And this is the thing for me, if he is super new then he might not know that's a bad thing to do. I have certainly played town games where I have tried to look townier by following the leader, only to be scum read for perceived lack of reasoning behind my moves.

I'm pretty happy at this point with town reads on DH, Postie, and Aero, who I think is genuine in his town read on me. There'd be nothing to stop him backing off or just 'null' reading me, so the fact that he's even bothered to argue for me says 'town' at this point.

[Dark Horse]

I'm glad you've started to join and ask me things too instead of letting postie do all the work.

Shannon's 105 did very little to generate discussion, as evidenced by the fact that

literally no one discussed

it until Aeronaut brought it up now.

Compare that to my push on shannon, which actually generated discussion.

Also creature why are you saying that shannon's basic reads list is "ok since we're on page seven," but my initial evidence on shannon from page two was "too flimsy." You're holding me and shannon to two very different standards.

Plus complaining about activity in the thread but not doing anything else does nothing to encourage activity. I honestly have no idea how you think that shannon has contributed the most to this game

Just because I'm not trying to clog the thread doesn't mean I'm ignoring what you say

So you do not have a case. You understand that you're not helping anybody to understand why we should vote with you if you're not going to provide reasoning, right?

Right now trying to convince people that shannon's scum is not a priority for me

Ok, you did. Would you say algebra is still the scummiest?

Yep

Please show me some posts by Flames, Thinkbig, Algebra, you, or myself that are less lazy/genuine, because I don't see any.

Thinkbig's questions, Algebra's reads, this whole argument we're having. All of these do significantly more to progress the day than just complaining about inactivity.

That's a shady as fuck reason for how sure you were trying to make it seem. Either way, I'm more focused on the fact that you were trying to look busy and eventually backtracked anyway.

If you want good results you can't half-ass your pushes. The reason that the game got off to such a slow start was because everyone was half-assing their pushes

What would you say Shannon's alignment is now?

She's been less scummy. I feel like a noobscum could have easily followed you in accusing me. The fact that she's willing to look at it from her own angle is very town.

After looking back, you're right, you didn't explicitly call him scum, and that's my bad. You did tell me though that you had had a townread on him, and now you've sort of redacted that? What's your current read on him?

I had him as solidly dumb town, but his catch up post was really bad. I still think he's town, but not as convincingly as I did before his catcb

Good thing you redacted the first part of this post where I say that 44 is an exception to that. As I've said, in what Postie cited as you being "aggressive", 3/4 of those posts were just you yelling and complaining because I was pushing you in the slightest way. Thats not aggression, it's flailing.

Why would I be flailing? No one else is supporting your read on me. Even the person you've been whiteknighting thinks that I'm town

Again, you're the one that's commenting on the conversation I'm having with Postie. Feel free to go do whatever you want with Algebra. I still feel like he could be scum; if you want to present a case to me as to why he's worse the you, go ahead.

Algebra's very clearly badnwagoning, and is only active when he's on the chopping block. When he's not on the spotlight, he'll just occasionally toss out a read, and provide nothing else (See: right now). There are several actions he's done where noob townie would have some sort of justification for, that he can't answer.

Yeah, but to me it feels like you didn't say anything about it until I was on board.

As you can see from the shitstorm of quote-walls in this game, trying to get a lynch through that I don't agree with is going to be difficult

, especially since we've got 7 people which is way too small to making dumb lynches. Granted, It's not like it was that long in between the time where Algebra puked all over the game and the time when I said he'd probably be a good lynch, so maybe I should give you a pass there.

By the time I had shown up to the thread after algebra's 99 post, you had already commented on it. You might have had a valid case if I had posted anything in between Algebra's 99 and your post, but I hadn't. Hell, you posted you're "I'd like to lynch algebra"

five minutes

after Algebra's post. How was I supposed to comment on algebra's 99 before that?

You take too much pride in the bolded part. These walls are incredibly anti-town, and do a good job clogging up the thread.

What do you make of Postie's opposition to an Algebra lynch?

She said she'd elaborate on it, so I'll wait until she does that

Postie just did a similar thing for about two pages on me, but I don't see you calling her out for it?

Postie has made much more of an effort to get her hands dirty than you had. She has also explained why she thinks I'm town, which is something you hadn't done. Do know how wack it is to see someone try to discredit approach without giving any in depth reasons for why he thinks my scumread's town?

What? In the span of four posts he discredits me, calls me scum, and basically says I'm shit player. You just described to me exactly my own reasoning for why he's scum. It's not a "gradient" if it's in the span of like 20 minutes

You're acting like I made those four posts in a row. They were all based on different lackluster responses that you had made over time. The 20 minutes remark is completely false. Anyone who has looked at that part of the thread knows this. Why are you making stuff up?

[Dark Horse]

okay so wow reading all of this is painful, everything is just one or two lines. I really don't like that 90% of dissucssion between pages 6-9 are just postie/aero talking back and forth. I'm not entirely sure what to think about this interaction though. There's been quite a dominant force of aero/postie deciding where the game goes and I don't really like that at all.

I haven't really seen any posts silencing anyone though, so I guess that's more on everyone else not posting.

I would like to hear more from algebra, as I feel his alignment will come rather naturally to everyone if he just posts more content. I'll do a read over again tomorrow when I get the chance, it's hard to process everything when it's as quick as lackluster as I feel it currently is. I'd like to see more content from EVERYONE, no one is really

explaining reads to the full effect that I'd like

. Or really sharing hard reads at all. I get that it's early into the game, but you have to start somewhere.

@postie With all the attention you've been giving to aero, do you still find TB to be your topscum?
@TB and algebra I'd really like to see both of your top town/scum reads in the game currently.

Underlined part feels really weird

What is the full effect you're talking about

This feels like a post you'd make after page 2 or 3, not right now. We had a person at L-1, and whole arguments over specific scumreads. Why are you trying to claim that no one in this town is sharing "hard reads"

[Dark Horse]

Why would everything being "quick and lackluster" make it more difficult to read the thread? Wouldn't it be easier, due to the lack of content?

Why are you asking algebra and thinkbig for a full reads list when you haven't given out any reads yet?

The more I look at 206 the less I like it

[Dark Horse]

Since I forgot to answer this

I am not sure what more I could have posted during a period where no one else seemed to be playing the game? What would you have done in my place?

I would have tried to ask questions, so people would have something to discuss. If you don't give people something to discuss in situations like that then its very easy for the situation to stagnate

[Dark Horse]

@Aeronaut what do you think of Wyvernite's entrance?

[ThinkBig]

V/LA UNTIL MONDAY AROUND 3:30 PM EST

I will still be reading and will try to post during this time, but I will have limited access until then.

[Dark Horse]

V/LA UNTIL MONDAY AROUND 3:30 PM EST

I will still be reading and will try to post during this time, but I will have limited access until then.

Oh come on

[Postie]

For the record, I think Wyvernite's entrance sounded forced as hell too, but I find that a lot of newbies have a tendency to sound a bit forced so I'm hesitant to call him scum for it. I'm scumreading the slot by PoE though.

@shannon

- Why are you townreading Aero?

Idk. My gut says Aero's town but the last time I gut townread Aero he was scum so... someone halp.

I'll get round to doing a case for town!algebra and responding to other stuff once my headache has died down a bit.

[algebra]

I'm liking the spurt of activity
My top town read is dark horse
Top scum is thinkbig

[Postie]

The fact that both of my top townreads seem to be generally on the same wavelength as me makes it even more important to me not to let them get lynched. If we can get a solid townblock to form I reckon we could steamroll scum this game.

[Aristophanes]

VC 1.7

Algebra

(2): Wyvernite, Dark Horse

ThinkBig

(2): Algebra, Postie

Dark Horse

(1): Aeronaut

Not Voting

(1): ThinkBig, Shannon

With 7 people alive it takes 4 votes to lynch.
D1 will end

Nov 17/16

or in

(expired on 2016-11-17 07:30:00)

Mod Notes: Nothing, other than to tell you that you are all awesome people! <3

V/LA UNTIL MONDAY AROUND 3:30 PM EST

Noted

[Dark Horse]

Aeronaut what ever happened to your algebra push?

[Wyvernite]

okay so wow reading all of this is painful, everything is just one or two lines. I really don't like that 90% of dissucssion between pages 6-9 are just postie/aero talking back and forth. I'm not entirely sure what to think about this interaction though. There's been quite a dominant force of aero/postie deciding where the game goes and I don't really like that at all.

I haven't really seen any posts silencing anyone though, so I guess that's more on everyone else not posting.

I would like to hear more from algebra, as I feel his alignment will come rather naturally to everyone if he just posts more content. I'll do a read over again tomorrow when I get the chance, it's hard to process everything when it's as quick as lackluster as I feel it currently is. I'd like to see more content from EVERYONE, no one is really

explaining reads to the full effect that I'd like

. Or really sharing hard reads at all. I get that it's early into the game, but you have to start somewhere.

@postie With all the attention you've been giving to aero, do you still find TB to be your topscum?
@TB and algebra I'd really like to see both of your top town/scum reads in the game currently.

Underlined part feels really weird

What is the full effect you're talking about

This feels like a post you'd make after page 2 or 3, not right now. We had a person at L-1, and whole arguments over specific scumreads. Why are you trying to claim that no one in this town is sharing "hard reads"

What exactly about the underlined part bothers you? I don't really feel like the quote walls that are being thrown about exactly help discussion, but it certainly isn't trying to control the game. I'm highly suspect of anyone trying to be a "traffic controller" if you will; of discussion.

the full effect, would be fully fleshed out details, of thought processes, things like your 207 for example where you refuse to elaborate on your read. I'm sure there's more elsewhere but that's just an example.

I've just replaced in, still getting a feel for everyone and the game. You've been here the whole time and experienced the game at those current times. I need a few posts in any given game before I fully adjust to it.

[Postie]

Got any reads for us, Wyernite?

[Wyvernite]

allright so I had to stay late at work so I apologize for not getting to analyze as much of the thread today as I wanted to, but I'll throw in a really quick and dirty rundown of reads thus far

I'll start with my town of
AERO - The amount of detail that he's gone into all of his posts seems very indicative of town, and I don't see him being mafia at all, especially with the posts he constantly references to support his reads/questions
Shannon - I currently believe that Shannon and I's thought processes are very similar, and being able to step into her shoes and see the game through her eyes makes me very happy in my read with her currently.

Null - Algebra/TB - I feel like these two will be key to winning, but with the amount of single\double lined posts that are only to be found here and there I can't confidently read them.

Scum
Postie - The amount of questions that are asked here, seem to be keeping everyone busy, and when prompted about her own reads we get that: it'll either "come later" 205, "it feels/sounds towny/genuine" 194 197 198 in these posts there is also the notion that aggressive = good which I don't find to be true at all. There are also really no thoughts of her own regarding her own reads. All of the pressure I see on aero, he responds well to imo, and gives no real substance back. Everyone seems to be townreading her for asking questions and sorting aero, but I honestly don't see it.
Dark Horse - I like a lot of points that aero brings up here (see: 200 211) Which I haven't liked any of his defense of. I think Postie's townreads are just an attempt to relieve pressure from her partner, which makes them both look worse in my eyes. I also believe that postie seems to be chainsawing for dark in response to aero's pressure

[Postie]

If I were scum in Wyvern's position, and I had to make a list of everyone that I most and least wanted dead, that would pretty much be it.

Gj Wyv

[Postie]

Also yeah I said I'd be following up on stuff but I'm tired now. >.<
Tomorrow I'll have something up for sure though.

[Dark Horse]

Scumreading the two people who call you out? Boooooo

Since you said it was a quick lowdown, I won't grill you on your lack of detail until you make a post that actually explains stuff like why Aeronaut's detail stands out, and why you don't like my defense at all.

There's several other wack parts about your posts, though.

If you and shannon have similar thought processes, why are your reads so different? Both of your scumreads are people that shannon thinks are town.

Postie's defense on me is far more then "it seems town." She's been cery clear with how she thinks I've been showing a logical thought process, which your strong townread Aero has said is very town indicative.

I hate the fact that you say you "pretty much agree" with what aero's saying about me. You sound like scum trying to piggy back off of a townie's read.

You better have some good content when you have time to provide more, because postwise you're 0/2

[Wyvernite]

You haven't called me out at all, you've asked questions, there's a very large difference between the two, same goes for postie, I see scum I call them as such, there's no OMGUS here. I said that I found it easy to step into her shoes, not that I agreed with her reads. I see how she came to them though; don't go putting words in my mouth tyvm. Postie's defense on you boils down to "it feels town" or "it was ballsy, brazen, and aggressive" because that's the only way she can explain how you've been playing this game, and it shows. I'll provide my own reasons why you're a scummy scum scum in my next few posts, but again as I said I didn't have time to do full reads on everyone, I'm going to showcase aero's accusations which I believe to be a solid basis on why you're scum. so take your bs 0/2 post crap out of here.

[Wyvernite]

whoops, had a dyxlexic momeny blurring lines 3-4 on your post, so you're not putting words in my mouth. I would agree that showing a logical thought process is town indicative, but I see no posts of yours which cater to the previously stated.

[Wyvernite]

If I were scum in Wyvern's position, and I had to make a list of everyone that I most and least wanted dead, that would pretty much be it.

Gj Wyv

Want to post this quick question so you can respond while i'm at work tomorrow. Is there any reason for me to want you and DH dead, and shannon/aero alive? I don't really see anything this game that would seem indiciative of that. Aero's put far more pressure on this slot than you have