JaeReed's Mini Normal Review

[mhsmith0]

Yeah that's the flip side. That's one I'm going back and forth on, mainly because there's a chance someone will fail to understand BP mechanics and get pissy about it post game. Otoh I'm usually unsympathetic to lol village so if that's why they lose it's really on them.

[JaeReed]

Also, I kinda feel like it's their own fault if they don't read how their abilities work. Like, if you're going to be so lazy that you're not going to read your role PM then a lesson needs to be learned, imo. I ask them to respond with their role and alignment for a reason, and that's to ensure that they have actually read and acknowledged their role upon receiving it.

If it's a huge concern I suppose I could clarify to the JOAT/UB-JOAT upon confirmation that the bulletproof is an activated rather than passive ability to ensure they understand their role?

P-edit - Oh good, I thought it was just another instance of me being an ass

[mhsmith0]

I once had to explain to a jail keeper how their role worked... while I was still a newbie

[mastin2]

Having it as a commute locks scum out of strongmanning/roleblocking (thereby wasting the shot).

Actually, a strongman punctures through a strongman, and because commuting would be the only action done from the JOAT the night of the commute, scum using a roleblock on the JOAT would be wasting it.

The only difference comes if the roleblock can block a BP (which you need to have an answer for), because roleblocks can't block commutes. Though, most scumteams aren't gonna block and kill someone anyway.

[mastin2]

*strongman punctures through a BP

And for clarity, the only difference pragmatically between commute and BP is that commutes guaranteed will not be impacted by the RB, so an RB + Kill (stupid as scum would have to be to do that) would fail; BPs are more questionable when it comes to RB + Kill (stupid as scum would have to be to do that), so if you rule that activated-BP cannot be blocked then it's identical. The difference only comes if you rule the BP

can

be blocked.

[JaeReed]

Strongman does puncture through bp but changing bp to commuter would make strongman unable to do that, since the very nature of commuter is that you're untargetable for the night rather than unkillable.

In my opinion, BP being activated means it can be blocked, since the activation is an action.

[mhsmith0]

Which is fine, just need to make sure it's clear on that point. Though honestly the odds of rb/shot on same slot are low unless they think it's a jk or something.

[mastin2]

**Strongman punctures through a commute.
Commuting does not make one immune to strongman.
Any mod who says otherwise is, frankly, wrong.

[Nexus]

Does it?

I would disagree.

[Nexus]

Wiki: "It is worth noting that because in flavor it physically leaves the game for the Night instead of being protected somewhere in Town, Commuter is considered the ultimate in Untargetability, trumping even things like Strongman. "

You can't do the opposite of that for a Normal game, imo.

[Nexus]

It's a conversation I'd be happy for us to discuss outside of this thread, but as is it wouldn't be considered normal if Strongman defeated Commuter.

[mastin2]

Well that's just stupid.
Literally nobody handles strongmen that way outside of the Normal queue. They pretty much universally puncture through a commute.

[JaeReed]

Yeah it's listed both under Strongman and Commuter on the wiki that commuter trumps strongman due to being untargetable. I think it's also listed in NAR since Commuter is a Hiding type role. They're just simply not there for the mafia to target with the strongman. Hence my aversion to replacing the BP with Commuter.

Question: When rolecopping the JOAT would the result just return "Jack of All Trades" or would it also list the abilities of the JOAT? I lean towards the former, but I'm not sure what the usual is there.

[JaeReed]

Also, do I need to have the possible results in the Follower's and Gunsmith's role PMs or is it enough to just have it in the mod info?

[mastin2]

With that stupid-ass rule for strongman/commute (seriously, who made that? I wasn't made aware of that change), yeah, keep it as a BP.
For rolecops, the solution I see most is to give them the information which would be included in the flip, so in this case, that would be the latter. I don't believe there's a standard though, so I think it'd be your choice.
As for results: it's not required to have the results in the role PMs, but it sure is appreciated by the players. It also saves you time in the long-run, because rather than asking you down the line, they have the answer already in their role PM.

[JaeReed]

Welcome to Mini x!

Player List

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.

Asterisk denotes a prod (*)

Alive

Spoiler:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.

Dead

Spoiler:

None yet!

Modkilled

Spoiler:

Hopefully none ever

Major Events

Spoiler:

Lynches, nightkills, modkills…

Vote Counts

Spoiler:

Links to all VCs for convenience

Game Topics

Spoiler:

Nice try. Wait til the end of the game.

General Rules

• All site rules are to be followed.
  
• You may not quote any private mod communication, nor may you pretend to do so. This includes but is not limited to your Role PM and anything posted in a PT by the mod. Paraphrasing is okay. If you are unsure on whether something has been sufficiently paraphrased, please err on the side of caution and run it by me first.
  
• You may directly quote from the game thread into any PT you have been provided for the game (such as the scum thread), but you may not quote from the PT into the main thread. You may, however, use your PT to draft a post with the intent to post it in the main thread, so long as you do not directly quote it when making the transition.
  
• Discussing this game outside of moderator-provided methods of communication is forbidden. This includes contacting any other player via PM, Skype, or other means to discuss anything game related.
  
• Using provable randomness is forbidden. Saying you rolled a dice is fine; using dice tags is not.
  
• If you have the ability to edit your posts, please refrain from doing so.
  
• Do not attempt to impersonate the mod. I’ll be using
  blue
  (#0040FF) as my mod color, so please avoid using it, or any similar shade.
  
• Don't be a dick. Having one is acceptable.

Activity Rules

• I will prod after 48 hours of inactivity. You will then have 24 hours to post in-thread before I begin searching for a replacement.
  
• If the number of times I've prodded you exceeds 3, I will begin searching for a replacement.
  
• Naked prod dodges will not reset the timer. You must include some kind of game-related content with your post.
  
• Weekends will count as 1 day for activity purposes. This will not affect the deadline timer.
  
• Prod timers will not reset overnight.
  
• Please PM me when announcing V/LA as an extra precaution in case I miss it. If you have regular V/LA periods please notify me of this pregame.

Setup & Mechanics

• This setup was reviewed by mhsmith0, mastin2, and fferyllt for normalcy and balance.
  
• There are
  10 town
  and
  3 mafia
  aligned players.
  
• Day phases will be 2 weeks (14 days) long, and night phases will be 2 days (48 hours) long.
  
• Extensions will be granted in the cases of replacements and site downtime. They will not be granted just because you can’t reach a consensus.
  
• To vote, please use the vote or bold tags (
  VOTE: Player
  or VOTE: Player).
  
• Lynches are based off simple majority (half the living players + 1, rounded down) voting to lynch someone. If no majority is reached by deadline, or a simple majority votes no lynch, then a no lynch will occur. At evens, half the living players is sufficient to no lynch.
  
• Twilight begins when a lynch occurs, and lasts until I lock the thread for the flip. During this time, you may still post regardless of who was lynched. However, no votes or unvotes will be counted in this time.
  
• Daychat is enabled by default.
  
• Scum may use any abilities they have along with their factional abilities on the same night.
  
• This game uses Natural Action Resolution.

Sample Role PM

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Role PMs

Spoiler:

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Mafia Goon

. Your partners are Name, a

Mafia Jack of All Trades

, and Name, a

Mafia Goon

.
You may talk with your team, day or night, in this thread.
Your team possesses a factional kill which any of you may perform during the night phase.
You win when mafia constitutes 50% of the remaining players with no other anti-town players not aligned with your faction alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Mafia Goon

. Your partners are Name, a

Mafia Jack of All Trades

, and Name, a

Mafia Goon

.
You may talk with your team, day or night, in this thread.
Your team possesses a factional kill which any of you may perform during the night phase.
You win when mafia constitutes 50% of the remaining players with no other anti-town players not aligned with your faction alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Mafia Jack of All Trades

. Your partners are Name, a

Mafia Goon

, and Name, a

Mafia Goon

.
You may talk with your team, day or night, in this thread.
Your abilities are:

1-Shot Strongman

– You may perform this along with your factional kill in order to bypass any protective or roleblocking abilities that would otherwise prevent your kill from succeeding.

1-Shot Rolecop

– You may choose a player to investigate at night for what role they are.

1-Shot Roleblocker

– You may choose a player to cause their action that night to fail.
Your team possesses a factional kill which any of you may perform during the night phase.
You win when mafia constitutes 50% of the remaining players with no other anti-town players not aligned with your faction alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Town Doctor

.
During the night you may target one player to protect them from being killed that night.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Town Jack of All Trades

.
Your abilities are:

1-Shot Bulletproof

– You may activate this at night to make yourself impervious to one killing action that night.

1-Shot Jailkeeper

– You may choose a player to jail at night, causing any actions by them or on them during that night phase to fail.

1-Shot Gunsmith

– You may choose a player to investigate for a gun that night. Possible results are “Has a gun”, “Does not have a gun”, and “No result”.
You may activate only one ability per night.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Town 2-Shot Follower

.
During the night you may target one player to learn what type of action, if any, they performed. Possible results are “No Action”, “Blocking”, “Protective”, “Jailkeeping”, “Role Investigative”, “Action Investigative”, “Killing”, “Miscellaneous”, and “No Result”.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Town 1-Shot Universal Backup Neighbour

.
You are neighbours with x, and can talk with them here at any time during the day or night phase.
You will inherit the role of the first town PR that dies, for one time use only.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Town Neighbour

.
You are neighbours with x, and can talk with them here at any time during the day or night phase.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Revised stuff, is this all good?

[mastin2]

It looks good to me.

I can't think of anything.

[JaeReed]

fferyllt abandoned me, it seems

[JaeReed]

Kinda want to double check that if asked about a theoretical backup receiving an x-shot role it's ok to "No comment" considering it's a normal game.

Some might consider it a mechanics question that has to be answered where I'd lean more on it being a role question that shouldn't be answered publicly.

[mhsmith0]

One small note on something I think you should change to be clearer

On UB role PM, please change

You will inherit the role of the first town PR that dies, for one time use only.

to

You will inherit the role of the first town PR that dies. However, your inherited ability will be converted to a 1-shot power.

(and then if the UB inherits JOAT, sent a role PM clarifying that the UB can only choose ONE of the JOAT powers, not that he can use each JOAT power once). Also in that case clarify which powers were already used and can't be used again (unless you want to allow him full selection)

Otherwise, I'm good with what you've done and approve it. That said, a few small/stylistic notes:

1) I'd suggest in your mod thread to make a list of REDACTED role PM's. Just something I like to do when modding so it is easier to avoid an accidental mod goof.

Alternatively, for mafia, you may also find it simpler to give a role PM that just says what their role is, and then in the mafia PM just show the full role PM's. You don't have to do it that way but it makes it easier to avoid a goof, especially on your first time. Example (from a newbie game):

Mafia Goon

Welcome!

You are a

Mafia Goon

.

You and your partner share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill. You also share a factional PT, located here, where you may talk during night phases only.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.

The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.

There's nothing in there that gives any useful unredacted info (other than the filled in private PT link), so it can actually be flipped fully on lynch. Obv you don't have to do that, but it's IMO convenient and less work for you with less "oops" possibility.

2) Stylistically, I'd say avoid the modkilled spoiler in your OP. If someone actually gets modkilled, then it happens, but I don't think it needs its own section.

3) Only do a VC link if you're actually motivated to post them all. I've gotten to the point where I don't link them, and I don't think anyone actually is bothered by this, and I've had multiple games go through since I've stopped linking VC's and have yet to get a complaint or even comment on it.

4) I'd say change will to may for extensions. I don't think you're obligated to extend for very short down times or replacements done well in advance of a deadline.

5) Some rules I've found helpful that might be worth adding:
Votes that misspell or have other minor errors will be counted as normal as long as I understand what you are getting at.
Flips will have full role revealed (I will essentially post the PM you received on your flip with the obvious required reductions)
The game will end when all threats to town have been eliminated or that is not possible.


That said, those five items are all suggestions, and it's fine without any of them.

[mhsmith0]

lol now that I've actually done research on how utterly useless town neighbors are in mini normals, I'm a bit worried town has too little power. That said, doctor, 2-shot follower, JOAT and a wonky UB are probably ok against goon/goon/JOAT. My guess is scum have >50% odds here, but hopefully town has enough power here to make it a good run. Slightly nervous, but I've approved it already and I think it's at least close enough to balanced (and at some point, if towns are bad enough for setups like these to be unbalanced, then so be it).

[mastin2]

There's a reason I consider neighbors a net-zero in review.

[mhsmith0]

I'm actually shocked by just how horrible town win rates in mini normals have been.

36-69, 34% in 10v3 mini normals from 1401 through 1832 (excluding a few where I didn't have the data to see what the roles were due to mods not showing the role flips on OP and games not getting archived accordingly)

That record is... utterly horrific. Like, my goodness.

[mhsmith0]

Also *fist bumps jae for win in 1844*

[JaeReed]

Alright, changed the UB role PM as recommended by smith. Removed Modkilled section (you're right; doesn't need its own section).

Still not refunding shots, and going with the "No comment" response to the public question of whether shots get refunded assuming Nexus is cool with that. I still consider that to be more of a role-based question than a mechanics one. Will inform UB JOAT what shots he has to choose from, but not the nights shots were used, who they were used on, or any potential results from the predec.

Redacted PMs in the mod thread is a good idea, so I'll do that. I was originally going to type it out for the flips but it's probably easier to have something to c/p. I was planning to put the PMs of all the maf in the mafia thread anyway so the goons know what shots the JOAT has to use. I probably prefer telling them their partners straight up though, so I wanna leave that in. Besides which I don't think it's much extra work to remove the few bits that require removing for the flip. Redacted PMs will look something like:

Welcome to Mini x, Player!
You are a

Mafia Goon

. [REDACTED]
You may talk with your team, day or night, in [REDACTED].
Your team possesses a factional kill which any of you may perform during the night phase.
You win when mafia constitutes 50% of the remaining players with no other anti-town players not aligned with your faction alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Changed extension rule wording as per point 4 in smith's post.

Added rule:
[*]Votes that misspell or have other minor errors will still be counted as a vote so long as I understand who it is meant for.

I'm motivated to do the VC links... It's my first time modding so it's all exciting. I might not do it in the future, we'll see how lazy I get after this game

I think Neighbours are just really dependent on the skill of the players that roll it. Chances are they're going to become extremely paranoid of each other and the neighbourhood will be useless. Despite the fact that mafia having daytalk and the neighbourhood consisting only of 2 people makes it very likely that they're both town. I don't expect them to catch on to that, mainly because they don't know all the roles in the game. I'm hoping it'll get some good use regardless, though.