Mini Normal 1848 — Game Over!

[DeathByWobbuffet]

Or is it that you think keeping my vote on HS while having second thoughts is Red! motivated? If this is the case, consider that I had been having second thoughts way earlier than the post I linked, essentially boiled down to - head says Red, gut says Green. This specifically is what I was trying to work out, am I still Red for not unvoting?

Yeah tbh bc you just now said that HS was obvtown posting and unvoted
So either you had the obvtown read earlier or it just showed up
If you had it earlier then letting someone be close to a lynch w a townread on them while on their wagon is bad. And im not going to explain the scum motive there bc i should not have to lol
And if you just decided on the obvtown while it was wavering b4 then it comes back to deciding to solidify your HS townread after talking to your scumread

Its one thing to keep your vote on someone while pressuring them to read them better but thats not the situation youve described
VOTE: Mort

I don't quite understand what you're voting him here for. Is it for changing his mind about HS?

[Human Sequencer]

This reads TvT to me. Road could be scum but I don't see any way Mort could be scum.

The conversation seems TvT. Road's slot could be red.
I realize that it might be confusing due to the way I wrote it, but come on guys I literally wrote right there 'Road could be scum'. I'm still on board for a road lynch if it picks up steam.

@MOD, Votecount when you get some time?

Mort, a lot of Kamelot's criticisms about your play makes a lot of sense to me. Obviously I don't agree with them being red aligned, but I do think you've let slip a few mistakes that could be easily misinterpreted.

One of the few things I agree with you on is that HS has been obvtown posting./quote]
Read this from the perspective of another player. I understand that you were confused and torn on the vote, and still trying to sort my slot out. I saw that. Kamelot didn't. In her eyes, it's just you being on a wagon you read as obvtown. This is where the conversation slipped into argumentative accusations.

Post 1153 isn't a misrep, because you've said that exact thing before many times. I'm assuming she read your iso and picked that up at this point, because she was strongly sring you.
It makes perfect sense that Kamelot wouldn't understand your mind and gut having two differing opinions-- Just read her sig. That should explain everything for you.

[keyenpeydee]

Vote Count

VOTE COUNT 1.29

[3] Road Kamelot - ChaosOmega, Mortfeld, Naomi-Tan,
[0] ArcAngel9 -
[1] Toto -
[0] Nero Cain -
[0] Drone -
[1] DeathByWobbuffet - TwoFace,

[L-3]

Human Sequencer - Drone, Lil Uzi Vert, Shadow_step, Toto,
[1] MortFeld - Road Kamelot,
[0] Lil Uzi Vert -
[0] TwoFace -
[0] Naomi-Tan -
[0] ChaosOmega -
[0] Shadow_step -

Not Voting

- Nero Cain, ArcAngel9, Human Sequencer, DeathByWobbuffet,

MOD NOTES:

It looks like I didn't see Drone's activity and is now being prodded.

V/LA:

Toto, ChaosOmega and Road Kamelot

With

13

Alive, it takes

7

to lynch. Day One will end in

(expired on 2016-11-21 15:40:00)

[MortFeld]

This reads TvT to me. Road could be scum but I don't see any way Mort could be scum.

I'm sorry, but saying a conversation looks TvT is meaningless if your read on one of the players is null-Red. Actually, saying a conversation is TvT makes other people want to disregard it as a pointless argument, which this is not. What is your actual read on Road beyond 'could be scum'? Do they look Green motivated to you?

One of the few things I agree with you on is that HS has been obvtown posting.

Read this from the perspective of another player. I understand that you were confused and torn on the vote, and still trying to sort my slot out. I saw that. Kamelot didn't. In her eyes, it's just you being on a wagon you read as obvtown. This is where the conversation slipped into argumentative accusations.

I had come up with a big argument to show why this is always a misreading from Road, it only makes ANY sense because Road hasn't read the thread, and that Road's trying to make this into a case is extremely forced - but then I realized that you are being purposefully obtuse here and I don't feel like engaging with it. The conversation did not slip into anything. Read the words without prejudging where each player is coming from. Hint - what type of faction would do this?

I'm still on board for a road lynch if it picks up steam.

So many levels of no. If you want a lynch, you have to vote for it. You are not in a position to sit back and say 'hmmm, which lynch do I like? Is it Road? Or is it ___?' Just that sentence should show why holding your vote until there's a wagon is Red! motivated.

Post 1153 isn't a misrep, because you've said that exact thing before many times. I'm assuming she read your iso and picked that up at this point, because she was strongly sring you.
It makes perfect sense that Kamelot wouldn't understand your mind and gut having two differing opinions-- Just read her sig. That should explain everything for you.

This one's especially good.

HS' first point

: 1153 isn't a misrep because I've said exactly that many times. Road

actually read my ISO

and discovered it.

HS, are you serious? It is a misrep. Road - Mort has been saying that HS is obvtown. Mort - HS has been making posts that look obvtown. You see the difference? And you see how one is a read, and the other is an observation about recent post content? And you see how Road is absolutely either wrong or misrepping? And you see how one leads to a vote and one leads to questions (such as - Mort, how do you actually feel about HS. Too bad Road didn't ask this and didn't believe/even read my answer)? And you see why a Red player would pick up on little town inconsistencies and disguise them in theory as actual Red behavior? Why on Earth would a Green player refuse to read the thread and decide to vote for me over this, instead of any of the other actual Red candidates? Don't forget they voted Toto and then asked us all to tell THEM why they voted Toto...

HS' second point

: Road's sig should show why they don't believe in a Green gut read and Red head read.

1. that head/gut stuff was a simplification of reasoning I actually explained 2. Road's sig has nothing to do with this situation. In the heat of passion I voted you and Red! read you. In the cold eye of logic, I Red! read you. The more recent struggle I am having was from your pre-Road posts and, while I said it was gut, it's actually logic. More accurate is that you did things that I think would more likely come from Green than Red. But post-Road I am quickly losing faith. It's also hilarious to say 'Of course Green! Road wouldn't understand your thing you said - even their sig explains why!' Why are you defending Road, who should be defending themselves, with reasoning that doesn't even come from the game?

Giving HS this last chance before I start looking at the game through a HS + Road = Red team lens.

Giving Road a chance to read the thread and come back with something that makes sense - if this happens I'll reconsider.

[MortFeld]

Long post because I want to believe there is any chance HS is Green, and if they are I need to convince them of Road.

[Human Sequencer]

Spoiler:

This reads TvT to me. Road could be scum but I don't see any way Mort could be scum.

I'm sorry, but saying a conversation looks TvT is meaningless if your read on one of the players is null-Red. Actually, saying a conversation is TvT makes other people want to disregard it as a pointless argument, which this is not. What is your actual read on Road beyond 'could be scum'? Do they look Green motivated to you?

Well, it's not meaningless at all. That's how I read the conversation. I disregarded it as a pointless argument because it read to me like two players tunneling into each other for bad reasons-- Which I stand by. You summed up my read perfectly. Null-red. Most of my scumread comes from Misa, though. Kamelot reads kinda green in how frank she is in putting her opinions forward-- which is why the argument reads TvT to me. Kamelot is more experienced than Misa though, which is why I'm still suspicious of the slot and wouldn't mind it gone if push comes to shove.

Spoiler:

One of the few things I agree with you on is that HS has been obvtown posting.

Read this from the perspective of another player. I understand that you were confused and torn on the vote, and still trying to sort my slot out. I saw that. Kamelot didn't. In her eyes, it's just you being on a wagon you read as obvtown. This is where the conversation slipped into argumentative accusations.

I had come up with a big argument to show why this is always a misreading from Road, it only makes ANY sense because Road hasn't read the thread, and that Road's trying to make this into a case is extremely forced - but then I realized that you are being purposefully obtuse here and I don't feel like engaging with it. The conversation did not slip into anything. Read the words without prejudging where each player is coming from. Hint - what type of faction would do this?

I'm not being purposefully obtuse. I meant exactly what I said. You are voting somebody you've recently read as obvtown. I know why because I was here the whole time, and Kamelot wasn't. Ergo, she has a different perspective which paints you in a scum light. We agree, it only makes sense if Kamelot hadn't read the thread. That's kinda the point I was trying to make there. It's not a forced case, that's a pretty good scumread. Voting somebody you read as obvtown.
How is that purposefully obtuse?

Spoiler:

I'm still on board for a road lynch if it picks up steam.

So many levels of no. If you want a lynch, you have to vote for it. You are not in a position to sit back and say 'hmmm, which lynch do I like? Is it Road? Or is it ___?' Just that sentence should show why holding your vote until there's a wagon is Red! motivated.

Well you'll see that in that very post I asked for a votecount to gauge where the wagon was at, and decide whether to join in. I never said I wanted a Kamelot lynch. I said I'd join if it came close to lynch and I wouldn't mind it happening today.
The green motivation here is that although I don't mind a Kamelot lynch, I prefer and kinda want a TB/ArcAngel lynch. The reason I'm not on that wagon is because they just came into the game, and I don't want to push them too hard just yet, before they've had the chance to understand where everybody stands in the game.

Spoiler:

Post 1153 isn't a misrep, because you've said that exact thing before many times. I'm assuming she read your iso and picked that up at this point, because she was strongly sring you.
It makes perfect sense that Kamelot wouldn't understand your mind and gut having two differing opinions-- Just read her sig. That should explain everything for you.

This one's especially good.

HS' first point

: 1153 isn't a misrep because I've said exactly that many times. Road

actually read my ISO

and discovered it.

HS, are you serious? It is a misrep. Road - Mort has been saying that HS is obvtown. Mort - HS has been making posts that look obvtown. You see the difference? And you see how one is a read, and the other is an observation about recent post content? And you see how Road is absolutely either wrong or misrepping? And you see how one leads to a vote and one leads to questions (such as - Mort, how do you actually feel about HS. Too bad Road didn't ask this and didn't believe/even read my answer)? And you see why a Red player would pick up on little town inconsistencies and disguise them in theory as actual Red behavior? Why on Earth would a Green player refuse to read the thread and decide to vote for me over this, instead of any of the other actual Red candidates? Don't forget they voted Toto and then asked us all to tell THEM why they voted Toto...

|Obvtown|

Noun

Obviously town.

If you're reading my posts as obviously town, then it's obvious that I'm town.
This is semantic and it risks dipping into copper argument territory again.
The point is that the difference between 'Your posts look obvtown' and 'I read you as obvtown' does exist, but is minute and easy to miss. This is amplified when you consider that Kamelot hasn't read the thread. Kamelot. Please read the thread.

Spoiler:

HS' second point

: Road's sig should show why they don't believe in a Green gut read and Red head read.

1. that head/gut stuff was a simplification of reasoning I actually explained 2. Road's sig has nothing to do with this situation. In the heat of passion I voted you and Red! read you. In the cold eye of logic, I Red! read you. The more recent struggle I am having was from your pre-Road posts and, while I said it was gut, it's actually logic. More accurate is that you did things that I think would more likely come from Green than Red. But post-Road I am quickly losing faith. It's also hilarious to say 'Of course Green! Road wouldn't understand your thing you said - even their sig explains why!' Why are you defending Road, who should be defending themselves, with reasoning that doesn't even come from the game?

In the heat of passion your gut feeling told you that I was town. Your body was telling you no. No? I guess not. I misunderstood the situation. That's how I read those posts, though.
It's not hilarious to say that. That sig, I assume at least, is a representation of how she prefers to play. It's not about just what the sig says, it's about how that represents her playstyle. Similar to Naomi's metapost at the start of this thread. As you said before though, road's sig has nothing to do with this situation once you explain that it wasn't a thinking over feeling thing, but just a thinking thing.

I'm 'defending Road' because you literally asked me to.

You think Road vs me is TvT...

Let it be known that if a wagon picks up for any of these slots, I'd be on board for a lynch;
Kamelot, ArcAngel, Creeps

Can you explain why you think Road's part is town? To change from then to now I feel that Road must have done something real Green! motivated. Were Road, ArcAngel, and Creeps your Red! reads?

Like I said though, totally on board for a road lynch. I'm just describing my thoughts on that particular interaction between you and her because as I said, you literally asked me to.

VOTE: Road Kamelot
I really hope we can murderball TB/Arc tomorrow.

[MortFeld]

I'm not being purposefully obtuse. I meant exactly what I said. You are voting somebody you've recently read as obvtown. I know why because I was here the whole time, and Kamelot wasn't. Ergo, she has a different perspective which paints you in a scum light. We agree, it only makes sense if Kamelot hadn't read the thread. That's kinda the point I was trying to make there. It's not a forced case, that's a pretty good scumread. Voting somebody you read as obvtown.
How is that purposefully obtuse?

I didn't read you as obvtown. Saying your recent posts look obvtown is not saying you're obvtown - it is very possible for Red to fake this.

I do see how this looks semantic, and how it resembles the Copper argument. But even if I drop everything relating to obvtown (and I disagree that we're arguing over the definition of a word), there's still a litany of Red action from Road -

• Voted Creeps explicitly as a reaction test, then later said it was not a reaction test
  Said my case against HS makes them town, when their argument was actually that the case is NAI
  Misrepped/misread Wobbu's conclusion, speaking for him in the process, about HS, while I was trying to dialogue with Wobbu and not with Road
  Green! read Nero with almost zero information
  Before Road had concrete stuff to justify a vote, they said I gave them the 'heeby jeebies' and declined to explain what this meant
  Voted Toto and said 'Guess why!' When I said, no, I'd rather see your reasons, they said 'no u tell me'

That being said, all of this is based on Road having limited information so I am hoping they will act pro-Green after they read. Also, HS is voting Road now so this is more for anyone else who thinks my entire case has to do with HS and obvtown stuff.

[MortFeld]

Or is it that you think keeping my vote on HS while having second thoughts is Red! motivated? If this is the case, consider that I had been having second thoughts way earlier than the post I linked, essentially boiled down to - head says Red, gut says Green. This specifically is what I was trying to work out, am I still Red for not unvoting?

Yeah tbh bc you just now said that HS was obvtown posting and unvoted
So either you had the obvtown read earlier or it just showed up
If you had it earlier then letting someone be close to a lynch w a townread on them while on their wagon is bad. And im not going to explain the scum motive there bc i should not have to lol
And if you just decided on the obvtown while it was wavering b4 then it comes back to deciding to solidify your HS townread after talking to your scumread

Its one thing to keep your vote on someone while pressuring them to read them better but thats not the situation youve described
VOTE: Mort

I don't quite understand what you're voting him here for. Is it for changing his mind about HS?

Road's argument:
-Either Mort believed that HS was obvtown while voting HS, or Mort suddenly changed his mind when Road said HS is obvtown.

• If Mort believed that HS was obvtown while voting HS, Mort voted a strong town read which is scum behavior
  If Mort suddenly changed his mind when Road said HS is obvtown, it means Mort took cues from one of his own scum reads, which makes it clear it's a fake read - scum behavior

-So, either way, Mort is scum

Issue is that neither of the two sides of the either/or are true.

[Shadow_step]

Okay so, I'm going to just quote what Nacho suggested in a previous game we played together, we didn't end up doing it. But I want to try it here.

I want to hypo results this game.

Explicitly Normal Investigative Roles:
Cop, Follower, Gunsmith, Jack of All Trades, Jailkeeper, Motion Detector, Neopolitan, Rolecop, Tracker, Vanilla Cop, Watcher

I don't think Rolecop should need to crumb their results.
Follower's results can be in the form of: Informative, Protective, Manipulative, Killing, Miscellaneous
Jailkeeper crumbs aren't important until 1 scum left
Tracker results are in the form of Person A --> Person B
Watcher results are in the form of Person B --> People Targeting.
JOAT needs to specify when they're using their investigative.

Hypoing format would be as simple (or complicated) as

N1 Murdercat Positive Vedith, Dragon of the West.
JOAT first investigative action.

If the player flipped cop/gunsmith, Murdercat would be scum (Target was murdercat, result was negative so "mafia" or "gun"). If Motion Detector, it would mean that motion was detected. If follower, it would mean that Murdercat used a protective action (Vedith is the second on the playerlist, "Protective" is the second follower option. If tracker, it would mean that Murdercat was seen following around Vedith. If watcher, it would mean that Dragon of the West and Vedith were seen targeting Murdercat. If JOAT, it would mean that the JOAT did use their investigative and thus the first investigative result listed in the role would count (so if JOAT flips Roleblocker, Cop, Tracker then it means that he used his cop and found Murdercat to be scum). If Vanilla Cop or Neapolitan, Murdercat would have returned Vanilla.

Basically if you are player A and you are a tracker and you target player B and see him visit player C.
You hypo claim like this.

N1 B followed doing protective, negative, tracked to C, JOAT first action Investigative

The thing is when A flips we will know he tracked B to C, the other stuff is just added so that scum can't figure out shit.
This requires proper co ordination from VTs
We can have a format to do this properly.

Example
Who you targeted
Follower result
Tracker result
Cop result
GS result
So on and so forth all the roles that are explicitly normal.

Basically PRs can easily hide their info here without claiming and we will get that if they didn't claim and got killed.

Thoughts?

[MortFeld]

That stuff only applies once it's day 2, right?

[Shadow_step]

yes

[MortFeld]

Doesn't that also mean that town can't really glean much from PRs while they're alive? Since scum can claim stuff too, and VTs will be "lying" without actual information.

And ok, I'm down to try that. It will basically just be the first post everyone makes on Day 2?

[Human Sequencer]

Glad I don't have to worry about all this mess considering I already claimed VT
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[MortFeld]

One issue I'm foreseeing, since I'm struggling to wrap my head around this and I consider myself pretty quick, is that there are (or were but still some) a lot of newer players in this game who might struggle with this idea.

I also don't see certain people doing this even if they're town but we'll see what they say.

[Shadow_step]

It will basically just be the first post everyone makes on Day 2?

Yes.

Also, scum have to be very careful what they claim because they cannot change their targets because they have already posted them in the thread.
While PRs are alive they don't need to claim anyway, unless they are out of shots or there are confirmed townies who are surely going to get nked. A mass claim can be considered then.

[MortFeld]

Btw HS I didn't ask you to defend Road, I asked you to explain Green! reading them. There's a difference - giving an obscure Green motivation for Road's not believing I can have my read on you is speaking for Road. Had Road given a good reason, this might be cause for Green! reading them. Unless you consider that sig sufficient; I don't. What Road is doing is misrepping my read altogether (saying HS is obvtown but logically scum is not what I'm doing), and you're saying that is somehow explained by Road's sig.

[Human Sequencer]

What Road is doing is misrepping my read altogether (saying HS is obvtown but logically scum is not what I'm doing), and you're saying that is somehow explained by Road's sig.

That's how she (and I) misinterpreted it.
Or at least I assume so.
This is me explaining my reads on her. Like I said earlier, I don't like to speak for how I interpret others' thoughts, because it's icky. I only did it because I was asked to.

[MortFeld]

You're not understanding. You said the argument was TvT. I asked you how Road's part looked town. Your explanation of that bit was not something that Road said. It cannot be a basis for saying Road's part looked town, because it was not part of what Road said. On top of this, you were supplying reasoning for Road - which, if Road is Red, is very convenient. You are justifying this by saying that I prompted you to explain your Green read, but because this reasoning may or may not be accurate, it cannot explain your Green read.

[MortFeld]

Sorry, I gave 2 reasons that Road's sig cannot be a basis for your Green read of Road. Er, I guess you don't have a Green read, you just think Road looks town in the argument? Gee, who knew that someone could say another player looks town in one place but still is scum.

[Drone]

Gonna catch up

I was just about to decide to replace you but thank goodness you're here. -Mod

[Naomi-Tan]

Am I the only one concerned that shadow is trying to get a mass roleclaim D2?

[MortFeld]

I don't really know site meta relating to role claims. But what Shadow is trying to do is not a mass roleclaim, right? He's trying to get everyone to claim roles and targets, these claims not mattering until the people who make them die. So while PRs are going to claim what they actually did, they're also going to fakeclaim things they didn't do, and everyone else will do the same. Obviously only works if everyone agrees to do it.

[Human Sequencer]

He's not.
He's implying that unclaimed VTs pretend to have a role too.

I'll get around to responding to you soon, Mort.

[Human Sequencer]

You're not understanding. You said the argument was TvT. I asked you how Road's part looked town. Your explanation of that bit was not something that Road said. It cannot be a basis for saying Road's part looked town, because it was not part of what Road said.

You're not understanding.
Kamelot's sig and therefore, what I interpret her personality as reinforces what I think of her possible townie motive in that argument, even though that is based off of a misunderstanding and having her not caught up.

"Gee, who knew that someone could say another player looks town in one place but still is scum."
I never said otherwise. What you thought was me saying otherwise, was me interpreting Kamelot's thoughts.

[MortFeld]

Ok, I'll cede that then. If Road maintains the accusation after catching up, then I'll know it's Red! motivated. But I agree that there could be a Green! motivation therefore it's NAI.