Mini Normal 1848 — Game Over!

[MortFeld]

As I said, I only have issues with the Chaos wagon's origins, not with the wagon's existence.

Fine, it already has a base. VOTE: Chaos

Vote with me TF and end this awful DP. Nero and Chaos, if they are town, are probably struggling because we're nearing 2k posts in one DP.

[TwoFace]

Fine with me. VOTE: chaos

[Human Sequencer]

"Oh, you think I'm town, you're really thinking the game through." It's weird to hold this opinion and then immediately vote me afterwards because there was support for it. Super opportunistic.

I really didn't mean it in that condescending way, and I'm sorry it came across that way.
I meant people who were putting in effort to play it. People who would make it a game. A lot of people were obviously trying and failing, like me, TF and Mort, and the rest of us were away or apathetic. The stagnation was killing me.

You had zero scumreads before Drone there? Holy shit. This is not like your play in the newbie at all. Still on the topic of your zero scumreads...

Yeah, I didn't have any scumreads, mostly because I started reading my scumreads as being more towny. This happened between post 1087 and 1582 and I did comment on it frequently.

So you want to lynch like almost half the people in this game, but have no scumreads? That's just silly. Almost like you're avoiding making scumreads to stay friendly to everyone, hmm.....

This is either a misunderstanding or a lie. You're trying to portray it as a blatant contradiction, as if I pulled a massive 180 out of nowhere, and I assume it's to get the final few people on my wagon to tip it over into a mislynch. This isn't the case though. Inbetween those posts, my opinion notably changed in thread. I think it's incredibly scummy that you would portray my actions in that way, and I assume it's because scumChaos was sure that nobody would factcheck it either today or later, and that I'd be lynched before I could bring it up.

The other reason this pinged me was his justification for post 1479. It reads to me like scum that planned that 'reaction test' excuse out in advance not due to how I'd react to 1479, but due to how others did. It gives him some wiggle room to claim reaction test or stick with his perspective. Town doesn't gain any information from that reaction test, what he claims he has is mostly due to the jump I did on his wagon after he heard my response to his 'reaction test'.

Hey look, another person throwing shade at Toto without explaining it at all. Could you maybe go into your Toto read a bit?
And if you're gonna steal people's reads, you should probably go further back than 2 posts. Your Mort read is pretty much verbatim from Drone's 1632.

I'll do a detailed read on Toto when I do an ISO on him. Probably tomorrow night. This one post is cutting it a little close on time for the busy weekend, but I can't leave the thread alone while I'm a focal point.
I agreed with Drone. I didn't steal the read, I was thinking a similar thing, and decided to chime in with agreement when he posted it.

Let's talk about your play in that game. It's pretty much nothing like this one, other than post frequency. You had scumreads, made cases. Here, it just seems like you're buddying players and your pushes are fairly non-existent.

My playstyle has evolved. I'm still trying to learn how to play Mafia, letalone learning how I play Mafia. Despite winning, I really don't think I was very effective as a scumhunter last game. I only realized this about halfway through this game, when I decided that what I was doing actually isn't helpful at all and decided to try out something different. If you want to see it in full effect, check out the ongoing newbie I'm in.
I had no real scumreads because I was incredibly demotivated, I was feeling negative towards the game and the stagnation was making me doubt myself.
I think it's reasonable for a new mafia player's meta to fluctuate as she finds her own way to find scum, don't you?

People randomly jumping on the chaos wagon is giving me the heeby jeebies, even if I townread most of them.

why do we always end up fighting -_-

[TwoFace]

What does the blacked out part say?

[MortFeld]

People randomly jumping on the chaos wagon is giving me the heeby jeebies, even if I townread most of them.

It really shouldn't. Dude. Chaos is the current alternative to your lynch. Like, we have 3 days and I highly highly doubt we'll reach a real consensus. If we do? Great! I'm just not there right now. I really think it's not even scum's doing, it's the fact that we have 6 replacements. Perhaps there's some leeway between Chaos, Arc, and Road, I chose Chaos because we need

a

lynch and his wagon already has a backbone. Very open to discussing, i.e. would like to see how Chaos responds to you and how Arc responds to me.

What does the blacked out part say?

why do we always end up fighting -_-

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Mort, I feel you're compromising here because you don't think Arc will get back to you in time with an answer and/or won't answer you.

The only issue I took with Omega's 180 on HS was that he was hinting that he was reaction testing in 1479. I didn't buy it then and I still don't now. I'm not sure what to make of that because I agree with the rest of his reasoning on HS and it was good enough for me to not question him on it at the time.

pedit: I'd like to hear your case on Toto ASAP HS.

[MortFeld]

Mort, I feel you're compromising here because you don't think Arc will get back to you in time with an answer and/or won't answer you.

Accurate. I mean, the question itself is a little silly, like, 'explain this scummy thing you did in a way that isn't scummy.' I'm probably going to get poor reasoning and WIFOM back regardless of alignment.

[TwoFace]

I don't see how that is a hint at reaction testing.

I also don't buy that he was setting a trap. Now if he has a history of doing that in other games, i'll reconsider but setting a trap to catch scum seems like bullshit to me. Besides I highly doubt that is an effective way of catching scum because reaction tests almost never seem to work out as planned in my experience.

[ArcAngel9]

Follow my conversations with HS & TF. I see things differently after long talk with them.

How exactly did this happen? What changed from the time you SRd both of them to the time you TRd both of them?

Please feel free to read my conversations with HS & TF once again. See my how read has changed over the time.

Yes, I agree that i scum read the HS slot with the way he read me as scum for TB's poor play, i found him to be opportunist to get m lynched which looked scum play to me but as i begin to interact with HS and TF, I have found and understand their playstyle a bit that he was going by his reads not relatively thinking that i am different player than TB. His conversations and fight between TF seem town to be because the arguments that were flowing between the two is something i can only see two townies behave. Scum usually would avoid being in limelight and wouldn't want further attention on them and the say HS was voted on him and open to see him lynched seems like a frustrated townie. I saw very similar arguments from TF as well. I concluded and changed my opinion towards both of them and also noticed that there are others players like Chaos who is only being opportunist in the game, came up with a lynch but only gave leads on Road but reject to explain in his reads on his remaining lynch pools looks like a setup and open options to hop his vote on day 1

Hence, I was trying to help HS and TF to see each other in a different perspective as TF was stuck in believing that HS reaction over his soft claim is not legitimate. HS reaction over TF claim is reasonable, i would have reacted in the same way or the other.

I didn't change my read on these two just like that. It slowly progressed from scum read to possibly town read after talking to them for quite some time.
We as townies always open to change our opinion based on player reactions and with the way they handle the pressure and this game i found both HS and TF doesn't seem scum to be at this point of time.

[MortFeld]

I also don't buy that he was setting a trap. Now if he has a history of doing that in other games, i'll reconsider but setting a trap to catch scum seems like bullshit to me. Besides I highly doubt that is an effective way of catching scum because reaction tests almost never seem to work out as planned in my experience.

When I suggested he was setting a trap, I suggested he was doing this as scum. I just don't see why town!Chaos would

suspect

HS of being scum but need more info. Like, the info is already there. I was suggesting that scum!Chaos might feel the need to come up with original information so his vote isn't looked at once HS flips green, and with that motivation he'd set up a trap.

[MortFeld]

Hence, I was trying to help HS and TF to see each other in a different perspective as TF was stuck in believing that HS reaction over his soft claim is not legitimate. HS reaction over TF claim is reasonable, i would have reacted in the same way or the other.

You would have voted to lynch TF after he soft claimed?

[TwoFace]

looking back, arc changed her read on me after I explained myself about claiming vig, which means she probably thinks my claim is legit and went into self preservation mode so i don't shoot her.

the fact that she falsely accused me of wanting to hop on wagons and couldn't back that up with evidence is a huge red flag against her.

[MortFeld]

Arc, are you aware that the case on HS is not at all limited to what people saw as PR hunting?

[TwoFace]

When I suggested he was setting a trap, I suggested he was doing this as scum. I just don't see why town!Chaos would suspect HS of being scum but need more info. Like, the info is already there. I was suggesting that scum!Chaos might feel the need to come up with original information so his vote isn't looked at once HS flips green, and with that motivation he'd set up a trap.

yes I agree. If there are posts that you can point to justify your scum read, an elaborte plan to trap scum isn't necessary.

[TwoFace]

Hence, I was trying to help HS and TF to see each other in a different perspective as TF was stuck in believing that HS reaction over his soft claim is not legitimate. HS reaction over TF claim is reasonable, i would have reacted in the same way or the other.

You would have voted to lynch TF after he soft claimed?

remember she said she didn't believe my soft claim

[Toto]

Need to catch up with this. Here are some thoughts.

Thinking about Arc + HS. It would be too obvious for Arc to defend HS so hard if they were partners. If one goes down the other soon follows. So I don't think HS + Arc is a thing anymore.

[MortFeld]

Hence, I was trying to help HS and TF to see each other in a different perspective as TF was stuck in believing that HS reaction over his soft claim is not legitimate. HS reaction over TF claim is reasonable, i would have reacted in the same way or the other.

You would have voted to lynch TF after he soft claimed?

remember she said she didn't believe my soft claim

Isn't changing her opinion on this (i.e. believing you are town and telling the truth) inconsistent with believing that HS' reaction is legitimate?

Pedit: Toto isn't that just boxed WIFOM?

[ArcAngel9]

Hence, I was trying to help HS and TF to see each other in a different perspective as TF was stuck in believing that HS reaction over his soft claim is not legitimate. HS reaction over TF claim is reasonable, i would have reacted in the same way or the other.

You would have voted to lynch TF after he soft claimed?

Lynch him would be extreme but what i now say doesn't stand up to how i would have felt to the situation but i would have definitely asked for reason behind his action (which he is already explained) and I could empathise with him.

looking back, arc changed her read on me after I explained myself about claiming vig, which means she probably thinks my claim is legit and went into self preservation mode so i don't shoot her.

the fact that she falsely accused me of wanting to hop on wagons and couldn't back that up with evidence is a huge red flag against her.

I said this before, how you kept your options to hop into my wagon seems suspicious to me and my initial thoughts on you about how you voted cooper because of his poor play made me thought that were keeping options to hop into easy wagon just like Chaos is doing it. It was an honest opinion at that time. If you want to black mark me on that, I can't change it, that's how i play my games.I am always suspicious over people who find little reasons to jump into easy wagons.

[ArcAngel9]

Arc, are you aware that the case on HS is not at all limited to what people saw as PR hunting?

Yes and i myself had a different reason to think he is scum and i also explained how that read is progressed from scum to possible town over the time.

[ArcAngel9]

Hence, I was trying to help HS and TF to see each other in a different perspective as TF was stuck in believing that HS reaction over his soft claim is not legitimate. HS reaction over TF claim is reasonable, i would have reacted in the same way or the other.

You would have voted to lynch TF after he soft claimed?

remember she said she didn't believe my soft claim

Isn't changing her opinion on this (i.e. believing you are town and telling the truth) inconsistent with believing that HS' reaction is legitimate?

Pedit: Toto isn't that just boxed WIFOM?

No, you're not reading this my perspective. I said HS reaction is normal to think he is may scum for soft-claim but TF motive was different and HS couldn't see it and I was pitching in both to see that whole argument in a different perspective. And with the way HS read TF as scum makes me more to believe that HS reaction was genuine and only a townie and can question such claims as strongly as he did.

[MortFeld]

No, you're not reading this my perspective. I said HS reaction is normal to think he is may scum for soft-claim but TF motive was different and HS couldn't see it and I was pitching in both to see that whole argument in a different perspective. And with the way HS read TF as scum makes me more to believe that HS reaction was genuine and only a townie and can question such claims as strongly as he did.

Didn't HS explicitly read TF as town though? If you actually look at HS' posts during the whole PL discussion, their vote on TF had nothing to do with the vig claim. They voted TF

despite

thinking TF was town. Don't take my word for it, read starting at 614. This is why I'm struggling with your explanation, the idea that HS questioned TF's claim just isn't true. I should read the discussion again to see if HS explains this since my PBPA was just your posts.

If you don't read, assume it's true that HS read TF as town the whole time. Does this change your read of HS?

[TwoFace]

yeah HS was town reading me and voted me anyway

[TwoFace]

Thinking about Arc + HS. It would be too obvious for Arc to defend HS so hard if they were partners. If one goes down the other soon follows. So I don't think HS + Arc is a thing anymore.

not all scum bus though. some people think it's bad play which would mean the other options are a. ignore completely or b. defend.

I doubt anyone has gotten lynched solely on the basis of "you defended him and he flipped scum" cause people can be wrong.

that being said, I agree that i don't think arc and hs are scum together.

[MortFeld]

Reading back on it, HS definitely never questioned whether or not TF was vig. HS questioned whether or not TF was even claiming vig. That looks like PR hunting, not town-motivated skepticism.

Not that I think HS is scum. What I'm trying to work out is that I feel like Arc's townread of HS magically appeared out of nowhere so I'm trying to assess Arc's reasoning.

[ArcAngel9]

No, you're not reading this my perspective. I said HS reaction is normal to think he is may scum for soft-claim but TF motive was different and HS couldn't see it and I was pitching in both to see that whole argument in a different perspective. And with the way HS read TF as scum makes me more to believe that HS reaction was genuine and only a townie and can question such claims as strongly as he did.

Didn't HS explicitly read TF as town though? If you actually look at HS' posts during the whole PL discussion, their vote on TF had nothing to do with the vig claim. They voted TF

despite

thinking TF was town. Don't take my word for it, read starting at 614. This is why I'm struggling with your explanation, the idea that HS questioned TF's claim just isn't true. I should read the discussion again to see if HS explains this since my PBPA was just your posts.

If you don't read, assume it's true that HS read TF as town the whole time. Does this change your read of HS?

yeah HS was town reading me and voted me anyway

I suggest you read it again or ask HS for clarification. HS indeed mentioned that at one point he reads him more scum than town. I wasn't blind. I read it and i found his reaction reasoning genuine.

Reading back on it, HS definitely never questioned whether or not TF was vig. HS questioned whether or not TF was even claiming vig. That looks like PR hunting, not town-motivated skepticism.

Not that I think HS is scum. What I'm trying to work out is that I feel like Arc's townread of HS magically appeared out of nowhere so I'm trying to assess Arc's reasoning.

TF repeatedly spoke that he never claimed VIG, it was HS who picked up based on TF's soft claim. Yes, I agree that there was some role-fishing has happened here but TF claim was bad, very bad that i could hurt town very well. HS reacted to it, the way a curious townie could react to day 1 PR claims.

do i know TF speaking truth, I don't know. He has to justify himself after night 1.