Open 658 Making Friends and Enemies | Game Over

[mhsmith0]

Wait a second, i have a question for you Smith. Why would i hammer Gamma D1 if i was scum? To bus myself a bit? I could have waited for someone else to hammer considering the hammer could be used against me for bussing.

It takes you AFTER my lynch to ask a question like this?

I mean, my case on you had nothing to do with the D1 Gamma hammer, which is obviously doable as either alignment. Why do you think it's actually clearing instead of just NAI?

[mhsmith0]

Why should we NOT wait until the scummier players show up then recruit them? I always thought masons are essentially 1-shot cops

Oh goodness no. What happens if a mason dies N1, and then mason #2 mis-recruits? Then suddenly those shots are worthless. Moreover, using it later makes it more plausible that mason #1 is shot and mason #2 dies recruiting on the same night. Whoever the masons are should ALWAYS use the recruitment N1.

Also it's helpful to have a third voice in mason chat on N2 to better plan and read the board. The masons KNOW each other are town and are better positioned to lead the board and drive lynches than VT's who only know their own alignment.

[mhsmith0]

Remember, the cost of mis-recruiting is an extra night death (barring scum shooting the same mason who mis-recruits), which is a HUGE cost to town.

With no recruiting misses, it's 10v3 and town gets four mislynches before it loses. With a recruiting miss, it becomes 9v3 and town loses a mislynch AND a cleared player in exchange for a guilty.

Generally, masons should be recruiting town leans or players with really high value to be sorted. Like it an elite player was on the board, you'd consider recruiting him/her N1 and either have an easy guilty on a player who might run the table otherwise, or a hard clear on a player who can really help you sort things.

The later masons do this, the LESS value it has. Also, the greater the odds that the player masons recruit gets shot that very night, rendering the whole excercise nearly worthless.

PS the closest thing to PR-based logic about shooting aubrey N1 is that maybe the masons were thinking about recruiting him.

[mhsmith0]

A recruited mason that is now a hard town clear is higher value to the town than a dead mason and a guilty. The game being down to two living scum reduces this a bit (the 2nd guilty would be a nice +EV), but in general masons should be trying to recruit town who won't likely attract a bullet that same night. Obviously there's WIFOM involved in this, since it's two sides trying to out-guess each other, but that's another reason that masons should be using their shots early.

See the prior iteration of this, where the masons recruited Thor N1 (while thinking he was scum) and got pretty good value from the excercise, as he was in fact town and became mason #3.

[mhsmith0]

This has been a public service announcement from smith, a player who is good at mechanics discussions

(and who is good at night actions as either alignment by the way, something that transcend should know very well by now seeing as Jae and I wrecked his team with our night actions in mini 1844, to the point where he was incorrectly asserting that the whole setup was town-sided, when it was mainly just swingy and dependent on town PR's making good choices to catch scum, and had the potential for town PR's to really blow it with bad actions, my role especially)

[Dunnstral]

If twilight continues, he should be forced to actually justify why he hopped on (especially given his previously stated town read on my slot).

paging io

[Secret Agent Jin]

Wait a second, i have a question for you Smith. Why would i hammer Gamma D1 if i was scum? To bus myself a bit? I could have waited for someone else to hammer considering the hammer could be used against me for bussing.

It takes you AFTER my lynch to ask a question like this?

I mean, my case on you had nothing to do with the D1 Gamma hammer, which is obviously doable as either alignment. Why do you think it's actually clearing instead of just NAI?

First of all, i dont know what NAI is and when i google search it, all it pulls up is abbreviations of players names.

Second, i must have missed your case on me since i assumed it was to do with possible bussing. Was there more of a case on me? Am i just that crappy of a player?

Third, where is this Jin/Trans scum team coming from? I faintly remember you saying that you suspect us independently but you keep grouping the two of us together.

[mhsmith0]

PS trans wolf meta seems to be taking shots that point back to him (open 646 as an easy example of this), and/or doing a bad job with PR-hunting or other mechanical considerations (mini 1844 as an example of this). The Aubrey N1 shot seems to fit both these criteria.

[Dunnstral]

Are these your scum-reads, if not why did you pick these 4?

They were popular lynch choices at the time

[Transcend]

fuck you and you can't meta me

have a good night and keep the pt warm for your scumfuck buddy because i'll be sending him there shortly

[mhsmith0]

@dunn:

@SAJ: NAI = not alignment indicative
Well, you made a really terrible vote on me that went against your earlier push against my wagon, and it seems like you did it entirely because I was a wagon with momentum. The better question here is, why did you actually think I was scum? You no longer have a need to sort me, town has a need to sort you given that you were (IMO) the worst of the votes on me.

wrt Trans and you, you're my top two scum reads, with a realistic chance that you're actually a team together (though obviously it's very plausible it's just one of you)

[mhsmith0]

fuck you and you can't meta me

have a good night and keep the pt warm for your scumfuck buddy because i'll be sending him there shortly

If you are town here, then I will concede the point. If you are scum, I'd say I'm getting increasingly good at the exercise. I note that you don't actually dispute the fact that the Aubrey shot DOES fit your scum meta, both in terms of mechanically poor shot and just going after someone who went after you. "But wait, maybe Aubrey made sense as a mason for reasons that I can't particularly describe, people just need to think outside the box and stuff"

[mhsmith0]

hey dunn and saj, why did you guys think I was scum again? I'd really rather get that explanation down now as opposed to after you've had two days to think about it.

[Dunnstral]

I firmly believe Transcend is mafia right now

[mhsmith0]

cool. why did you think i was mafia instead of basically just a null?

[Dunnstral]

Anyways if that's all for tonight I'm heading to bed, g'night all

[sad1492]

fuck you and you can't meta me

have a good night and keep the pt warm for your scumfuck buddy because i'll be sending him there shortly

[Dunnstral]

I'm kidding

The reason was that you were pushing the "I wouldn't kill Aubrey" angle and I believed you'd have said that as scum too

And there's no way to know why you'd have done it if you were scum. It looked like you were pushing something untrue in order to absolve suspicion on your slot

[sad1492]

Oh shit I didn't mean to quote that just messing around
Thank you smith the information wasn't much needed.
Gnight Dunn

[sad1492]

I mean much needed not wasn't much needed wtf keyboard

[sad1492]

If someone point out to me how to edit my posts I would appreciate it

[Secret Agent Jin]

@SAJ: NAI = not alignment indicative
Well, you made a really terrible vote on me that went against your earlier push against my wagon, and it seems like you did it entirely because I was a wagon with momentum. The better question here is, why did you actually think I was scum? You no longer have a need to sort me, town has a need to sort you given that you were (IMO) the worst of the votes on me.

wrt Trans and you, you're my top two scum reads, with a realistic chance that you're actually a team together (though obviously it's very plausible it's just one of you)

Touché, if you flip town then my vote was a horrible one. As far as my reasoning that i think you were scum goes, i was thoroughly convinced of your scumminess by others. That is what happens when you are a new player and suck at reading people.

[Secret Agent Jin]

If someone point out to me how to edit my posts I would appreciate it

A rule is that no editing is allowed

[mhsmith0]

@dunn: That's basically a null thing though. Realistically, I had no motive to want Aubrey dead in terms of his reads and pushes (barring something weird like a me-trans team), which means that the ONLY reason that would make sense is that he'd have been a mason read, which no one could really articulate good reasons to think he was, which meant that I had no kill motive on him. Sure, there's some level of WIFOM there, but it's a pretty meaningful data point which pretty solidly points to "not smith". I've used NKA to absolve myself of suspicion before, and while I'd probably do it as either alignment, I don't really see why it's particularly suspicious instead of null.

Like, the entire case on me was a big null, in a board that didn't really have a lot of people who were obvious town. Plus that wagon speed and the specious reasoning of almost everyone voting/pushing it REALLY should have been a big red flag.

@sad: since you're softing the shit out of possibly being a mason (hopefully this is WIFOM from a VT, in which case well done), I'd say

1) You should probably be the recruiter if you haven't already (since you have decent odds of absorbing a bullet), and REALLY need to use it on a town read in case you're a mason whose buddy is getting shot instead
2) No one should recruit sad tonight, in case there are two masons with a shot left (see #1)

[mhsmith0]

@SAJ: NAI = not alignment indicative
Well, you made a really terrible vote on me that went against your earlier push against my wagon, and it seems like you did it entirely because I was a wagon with momentum. The better question here is, why did you actually think I was scum? You no longer have a need to sort me, town has a need to sort you given that you were (IMO) the worst of the votes on me.

wrt Trans and you, you're my top two scum reads, with a realistic chance that you're actually a team together (though obviously it's very plausible it's just one of you)

Touché, if you flip town then my vote was a horrible one. As far as my reasoning that i think you were scum goes, i was thoroughly convinced of your scumminess by others. That is what happens when you are a new player and suck at reading people.

What arguments by which people convinced you? There really wasn't much of a case presented, and IIRC only fitz came in with anything sort of new in the time it took for you to flip onto me (IIRC anyway - not my job to verify this anymore). I don't really see why you were convinced, and "well people convinced me" doesn't really explain it.