Micro 657: Vanillite Mafia (Game Over!)

[Aeronaut]

@shannon what makes Postie worse than Wyrver or Algebra or myself for you?

[Aeronaut]

Hard townread on Algebra and Wyrv makes zero sense from your perspective.

Why? I covered both in detail.

But it doesn't make any sense to me. I'll go back and find things that I'm talking about, hold on

[Aeronaut]

@shannon what makes Postie worse than Wyrver or Algebra or myself for you?

Never mind, you answered this.

[Aeronaut]

So what I don't understand is Postie's progression on Wyrv. See below.

I'll do a read over again tomorrow when I get the chance, it's hard to process everything when it's as quick as lackluster as I feel it currently is. I'd like to see more content from EVERYONE, no one is really explaining reads to the full effect that I'd like. Or really sharing hard reads at all. I get that it's early into the game, but you have to start somewhere.

There's plenty to comment on so far. Do some ISOs, tell me what you think of my reasons for townreading DH, etc.

This is a null interaction, first off.

For the record, I think Wyvernite's entrance sounded forced as hell too, but I find that a lot of newbies have a tendency to sound a bit forced so I'm hesitant to call him scum for it. I'm scumreading the slot by PoE though.

Here is her soft defending him, but then calling him scum anyway? She mentions that his entrance is forced, and she'd be right. Then says it's NAI. Ok. But then she's scum reading him by POE?

If I were scum in Wyvern's position, and I had to make a list of everyone that I most and least wanted dead, that would pretty much be it.

Gj Wyv

Here Postie calls out Wyrv as scum.

I wouldn't hate a Wyv lynch, but I think my preference is still for a ThinkBig lynch right now, just because algebra has been latched onto ThinkBig all game so a scumflip there basically clears him.

Here, she's moved to "not hating" a Wyv lynch. Still pushing ThinkBig on POE, but mentioning that she still would lynch Wyrv. Granted, Postie here says that Thinkbig flipping scum would clear algebra; Ok, so since TB has flipped Town,

@Postie[/b[ what do you think of Algebra now?

As of 285 I strongly oppose a Wyvernite lynch. More to come.

Wyv, if you don't want to be today's lynch you'll vote ThinkBig.

And then right as Wyrv is gaining traffic, Postie is suddenly in strong opposition.

I don't see the utility in Wyv flipping his read on Aero. It looks very much like he doesn't care about making allies that will oppose his lynch; he's managed to make an enemy of half the town by now due to the way he's evolved his reads on people. And he hasn't been actively pursuing another wagon that's likely to go through instead of his own.

The paranoia about "silencing" pings me as

extremely

town also.

When I was talking about people "silencing" this is exactly what I was talking about, and it coming from one of my top towns is very unsettling to say the least.

You're pushing scum on me for bringing up people who aren't being focused currently. You are trying to get me to not talk about them.

This is what doesn't make sense to me now looking back; Why does Wyrvernite changing his read on me suddenly make him town? Literally what happened is that he hard townread me for no reason besides my posts being "detailed". I called him out on it, and *suddenly* he was scum reading me for disagreeing with him. Somehow, some way, that is reasoning for Postie's excuse to hard-townread him for the rest of the game.

He's now looking at algebra, the other person "up for lynch today". That looks like pursuing another wagon to me

He's not done anything to convince anyone to vote someone who isn't him. That's the bottom line.

Not doing anything to convince anyone that someone else is scum, is not Town-play, and not a real argument.

Not only is wyv signifigantly scummier

I'm going to have to strongly disagree here.

but a TB lynch gives us next to nothing.

If we lynch him today and he flips scum:

• algebra is cleared
  
• we're left with a pool of 4 people to choose between to lynch, all of which are actively posting

If we lynch him today and he flips town:

• we eliminate an unknown who was going to be lynched eventually anyway
  
• we don't have to keep get frustrated over the fact that he's not doing anything

If we don't lynch him today:

• we'll likely have to decide whether to lynch between him or algebra tomorrow, and if we choose wrong we lose
  
• that's not a choice I trust town with please let's not go there guys

Nothing on here made/makes any sense besides the content part.

Like I can already see the entire game going down the drain from here if this lynch goes through.

And now you're still hard defending him. This doesn't make sense.

[shannon]

Aero + Wyv?

Sure, why not? If Postie isn't doing the manipulating, then Aero capitulated waaaay too easily for someone who was up in the air about his decision.

[Aeronaut]

I think it's a similar feeling with algebra but I have to look back again and check.

[Aeronaut]

But I still don't know about Postie.

[shannon]

Just saw Aero's most recent wall, looks towny enough that Postie is my sole focus in the firing line.

Wyvern, any comments from your end of things?

[Aeronaut]

Honestly, the fact that Wyrv has been absolutely silent today, mixed with the kill makes me feel like he makes the most sense to lynch today.

[shannon]

We've got heaps of time, no need to rush in

[shannon]

I do also note the request from our dearly departed that Wyvern be today's lynch, but whether that's a good read or not I'm not sure.

[Aeronaut]

We do have time.

But it's still bothersome that he's not around

[Postie]

Just saw Aero's most recent wall, looks towny enough that Postie is my sole focus in the firing line.

Please explain.

the fact that Wyrv has been absolutely silent today

Please explain.

mixed with the kill

Please explain.

[Postie]

Responding to Aero's wall in a few.

[shannon]

Just saw Aero's most recent wall, looks towny enough that Postie is my sole focus in the firing line.

Wyvern, any comments from your end of things?

@Postie - I don't think you and Aero are a team together, I think strongly that you are scum and less strongly that you're town and he's pulling the wool over my eyes. I was going to muck around pushing both of you but now I'm just on the Postie train to lynchtown.

[Postie]

I think strongly that you are scum and less strongly that you're town and he's pulling the wool over my eyes.

What makes you think that those are the only options?

[shannon]

I think strongly that you are scum and less strongly that you're town and he's pulling the wool over my eyes.

What makes you think that those are the only options?

Your outstanding tunnel D1 makes you a target in my eyes. You can't talk me out of it without a PR claim or a really really good case on someone else, so start working on that.

[Postie]

I'll do a read over again tomorrow when I get the chance, it's hard to process everything when it's as quick as lackluster as I feel it currently is. I'd like to see more content from EVERYONE, no one is really explaining reads to the full effect that I'd like. Or really sharing hard reads at all. I get that it's early into the game, but you have to start somewhere.

There's plenty to comment on so far. Do some ISOs, tell me what you think of my reasons for townreading DH, etc.

This is a null interaction, first off.

If it's null, why mention it? Are you drawing any conclusions from this? Did someone suggest it

wasn't

a null interaction? What are you trying to say by pointing this out?

For the record, I think Wyvernite's entrance sounded forced as hell too, but I find that a lot of newbies have a tendency to sound a bit forced so I'm hesitant to call him scum for it. I'm scumreading the slot by PoE though.

Here is her soft defending him, but then calling him scum anyway? She mentions that his entrance is forced, and she'd be right. Then says it's NAI. Ok. But then she's scum reading him by POE?

The question marks seem to indicate this confuses you. What about "I disagree that X is a good reason to scumread this player, but I scumread them regardless because of Y" is confusing you?

Here, she's moved to "not hating" a Wyv lynch. Still pushing ThinkBig on POE, but mentioning that she still would lynch Wyrv. Granted, Postie here says that Thinkbig flipping scum would clear algebra; Ok, so since TB has flipped Town,

@Postie[/b[ what do you think of Algebra now?

Why would TB's townflip change my opinion of algebra? I said that I'd be able to draw conclusions from a TB scumflip, not

any

flip.

I don't see the utility in Wyv flipping his read on Aero. It looks very much like he doesn't care about making allies that will oppose his lynch; he's managed to make an enemy of half the town by now due to the way he's evolved his reads on people. And he hasn't been actively pursuing another wagon that's likely to go through instead of his own.

The paranoia about "silencing" pings me as

extremely

town also.

When I was talking about people "silencing" this is exactly what I was talking about, and it coming from one of my top towns is very unsettling to say the least.

You're pushing scum on me for bringing up people who aren't being focused currently. You are trying to get me to not talk about them.

This is what doesn't make sense to me now looking back; Why does Wyrvernite changing his read on me suddenly make him town? Literally what happened is that he hard townread me for no reason besides my posts being "detailed". I called him out on it, and *suddenly* he was scum reading me for disagreeing with him. Somehow, some way, that is reasoning for Postie's excuse to hard-townread him for the rest of the game.

I like the part where you ignore that I gave

It looks very much like he doesn't care about making allies that will oppose his lynch; he's managed to make an enemy of half the town by now due to the way he's evolved his reads on people.

three

And he hasn't been actively pursuing another wagon that's likely to go through instead of his own.

other

The paranoia about "silencing" pings me as

extremely

town also.

reasons.

Not doing anything to convince anyone that someone else is scum, is not Town-play, and not a real argument.

It's not pro-town, certainly, but anti-town = scummy is fallacy and you know it. The question should be whether it: a) helps or hurts his wincon as scum, and b) whether the answer to a) matches his perception of the action. When you're scum, not pushing for someone else to be lynched while you are being lynched is blatantly detrimental to your wincon, and therefore more likely to come from a town mindset because it's unlikely that someone would knowingly play against their win condition.

Nothing on here made/makes any sense besides the content part.

Why?

And now you're still hard defending him. This doesn't make sense.

Why?

[Postie]

shannon, please tell me how in the hell you're townreading Aero's wall. He describes my actions, but he doesn't follow that up with a single. Fucking. Conclusion. It's all well and good to stand around going "this confuses me", but it doesn't advance the gamestate, doesn't show you're putting thought into the game, and overall reeks of busywork.
Being confused about someone doesn't make them scum and saying a lot of words about being confused doesn't make someone town.

[Aeronaut]

I'll do a read over again tomorrow when I get the chance, it's hard to process everything when it's as quick as lackluster as I feel it currently is. I'd like to see more content from EVERYONE, no one is really explaining reads to the full effect that I'd like. Or really sharing hard reads at all. I get that it's early into the game, but you have to start somewhere.

There's plenty to comment on so far. Do some ISOs, tell me what you think of my reasons for townreading DH, etc.

This is a null interaction, first off.

If it's null, why mention it? Are you drawing any conclusions from this? Did someone suggest it

wasn't

a null interaction? What are you trying to say by pointing this out?

Because in a game this small, null/unimportant interactions are usually what scum are going to use to interact with their team.

For the record, I think Wyvernite's entrance sounded forced as hell too, but I find that a lot of newbies have a tendency to sound a bit forced so I'm hesitant to call him scum for it. I'm scumreading the slot by PoE though.

Here is her soft defending him, but then calling him scum anyway? She mentions that his entrance is forced, and she'd be right. Then says it's NAI. Ok. But then she's scum reading him by POE?

The question marks seem to indicate this confuses you. What about "I disagree that X is a good reason to scumread this player, but I scumread them regardless because of Y" is confusing you?

Because you're hardcore wavering on it; you're struggling to give a real stance on him.

Here, she's moved to "not hating" a Wyv lynch. Still pushing ThinkBig on POE, but mentioning that she still would lynch Wyrv. Granted, Postie here says that Thinkbig flipping scum would clear algebra; Ok, so since TB has flipped Town,

@Postie[/b[ what do you think of Algebra now?

Why would TB's townflip change my opinion of algebra? I said that I'd be able to draw conclusions from a TB scumflip, not

any

flip.

So null?

Do you have any opinion of algebra whatsoever?

The reason I asked is because, if you feel so strongly that a TB scum flip

CLEARS

Algebra, doesn't it make sense for a TB town flip to give some sort of impactful read as well?

I don't see the utility in Wyv flipping his read on Aero. It looks very much like he doesn't care about making allies that will oppose his lynch; he's managed to make an enemy of half the town by now due to the way he's evolved his reads on people. And he hasn't been actively pursuing another wagon that's likely to go through instead of his own.

The paranoia about "silencing" pings me as

extremely

town also.

When I was talking about people "silencing" this is exactly what I was talking about, and it coming from one of my top towns is very unsettling to say the least.

You're pushing scum on me for bringing up people who aren't being focused currently. You are trying to get me to not talk about them.

This is what doesn't make sense to me now looking back; Why does Wyrvernite changing his read on me suddenly make him town? Literally what happened is that he hard townread me for no reason besides my posts being "detailed". I called him out on it, and *suddenly* he was scum reading me for disagreeing with him. Somehow, some way, that is reasoning for Postie's excuse to hard-townread him for the rest of the game.

I like the part where you ignore that I gave

It looks very much like he doesn't care about making allies that will oppose his lynch; he's managed to make an enemy of half the town by now due to the way he's evolved his reads on people.

three

And he hasn't been actively pursuing another wagon that's likely to go through instead of his own.

other

The paranoia about "silencing" pings me as

extremely

town also.

reasons.

Those are reasons I refuted already, so I didn't feel like being redundant. I probably should have just kept it anyway, though.

Not doing anything to convince anyone that someone else is scum, is not Town-play, and not a real argument.

It's not pro-town, certainly, but anti-town = scummy is fallacy and you know it. The question should be whether it: a) helps or hurts his wincon as scum, and b) whether the answer to a) matches his perception of the action.

When you're scum, not pushing for someone else to be lynched while you are being lynched is blatantly detrimental to your wincon

, and therefore more likely to come from a town mindset because it's unlikely that someone would knowingly play against their win condition.

First off; I'm not saying it's just anti-town. It's scum-indicative, and you know that, Postie. Sitting around, providing no new reads or intel on anything is so very scum-motivated; it allows the player to look busy and townie without having to provide any real reads or stances, because in a game this small most of those stances would be bullshit anyway.

Nothing on here made/makes any sense besides the content part.

Why?

Again... I've stated why above like four times at this point. Please read the above.

And now you're still hard defending him. This doesn't make sense.

Why?

Because.... how could you hard-defend anyone at this point? Aren't you paranoid of anyone?

Like I can say that I'm

pretty

sure that Shannon is town, but I still don't fucking know for sure. You're here acting like you've got it solved

[Postie]

Ugh too tired to break things down into quotes, so:

1) Great. Does town

not

interact in unimportant/null ways with each other? "Scum do this" means nothing if town also frequently do said thing.
2) I outright called him scum. Much fencesit. Very undecide.
3) "If a, then b." =/= "If a, then b. If not a, then c."
4) Right, but you implied the quoted was the only reason I was working off, which is a misrep.
5) He had stances though; they just weren't ones that would lead to an alternate lynch. You're misrepping again.
6) You overestimate my paranoia and underestimate how far I will go to defend my townreads.

[Aeronaut]

why won't you give me a read on algebra

math is not a read.

[Aeronaut]

Your argument isn't that he had stances though, it's just that he didn't want to vote and somehow that makes him town

[Postie]

why won't you give me a read on algebra

algebra is likely town for the reasons I outlined on day 1 but the flip says nothing about his alignment because

"If a, then b." =/= "If a, then b. If not a, then c."

[Postie]

Your argument isn't that he had stances though, it's just that he didn't want to vote and somehow that makes him town

My argument is that he didn't do anything to try to prevent his own lynch. Your counterargument was that doing nothing is pro-scum because it means you don't need to take stances. Since he took stances, your counterargument fails.