Rule Addition Regarding Hiding Identity from Staff

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If I'm being honest, I don't think moderators should be allowed to play in games with alts.

Or they should be forced to publicly reveal at the beginning of the game "I have no knowledge of the identity of any alts in this game".

Because I trust the mods not to go looking for it if they don't already know. It's more prior knowledge that is a concern.

With that in mind, the obligation to ensure no game contains a moderator who knows the identity of another user under an alt account should fall

to the moderator

.

Because only they could know.

So if they have to replace out due to conflict of interest (wincon vs. site rules) or discuss with the alt who signed up a solution that fits both players (can you not use your alt this game? can you not play this game I would like to play?, etc.)

But the burden has to be on the moderation team, and not people playing under alternate accounts.

[AniX]

I think exactly the opposite way: The ability of users to freely and anonymously use alts in a game should come secondary to the ability of those who take on additional responsibilities to serve this site to play using their main accounts and the burden if one chooses to use an alt should be on the alt user.

[Aronis]

Wouldn't it provide the mod an unfair advantage in meta terms? Say Bob makes an alt, Albert. Bob has a specific and distinctive tell that he only does as scum, but he doesn't mind doing it as Albert because nobody knows it's him. One day, a staff member discovers his identity as part of their duties and now knows Albert is Bob, which gives them a game advantage.

I feel like the best solution to this problem would be to have Bob learn how to properly play mafia that way bob wouldn't need to rely on alts to be good at mafia.

Also, how is it not an unfair advantage for someone to be an alt? Because they are able to use meta and prior experiences to read every other player in the game, but then those players being unable to utilize the same ability seems kinda screwed up to me.

[Accountant]

The question I'm looking at is if the mod is town in that game if it would be right and ethical for them to play to their wincon and lynch bob

[Lady Lambdadelta]

That preposterous.

The conflict of interest here is the moderators, not the players. The player is attempting to play without the burden/benefit of their past history and that can be an appealing thing to try.

It isn't their job to ask every moderator "hey do you know who my alt is?"

It's the moderator's job to inform someone "hey I know who you are" and then the moderators responsibility to extricate themselves should no agreement be able to be reached.

I've already mentioned two ways in which the moderator can try to resolve the situation while allowing both parties to participate, but if the player with the alt doesn't want any part of it it is

part of those additional responsibilities that you mentioned for the moderator to cede to the alt.

[Aronis]

The question I'm looking at is if the mod is town in that game if it would be right and ethical for them to play to their wincon and lynch bob

The question I'm looking at is why that should ever need to be an issue and problem in the first place.

[Klingoncelt]

The mods know all or at least most of the alts, but other players know the alts too.

I don't care if they know mine.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The mods know all or at least most of the alts, but other players know the alts too.

I don't care if they know mine.

You're not part of the group that is at risk then.

Like, there are plenty of people who have alts and just publicly link them to their accounts such that anyone with 10 minutes of time can go look it up.

Like, there are bound to be alts who say "yes I don't care if you reveal who I am" and that's not the people we're talking about here because that is a non issue.

[xyzzy]

moderators are volunteers who give up their time and effort to make the community better, and I think it's unreasonable to expect them to shoulder the burden of making sure no one with an alt ever has to play in a game with someone who knows who that alt is. if you play with an alt and don't want to deal with that, then it's really easy to avoid playing in games with moderators.

[Klingoncelt]

You're not part of the group that is at risk then.

Like, there are plenty of people who have alts and just publicly link them to their accounts such that anyone with 10 minutes of time can go look it up.

Like, there are bound to be alts who say "yes I don't care if you reveal who I am" and that's not the people we're talking about here because that is a non issue.

You got me all wrong. I don't want my alt revealed, certainly not while I'm still in the game. But if they already know it it's no big deal. They can just keep that bit of info to themselves.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

moderators are volunteers who give up their time and effort to make the community better, and I think it's unreasonable to expect them to shoulder the burden of making sure no one with an alt ever has to play in a game with someone who knows who that alt is. if you play with an alt and don't want to deal with that, then it's really easy to avoid playing in games with moderators.

Moderators are people who take on roles of authority.

By doing this, they are a moderator first and a player second.

As such, given the conflict of interest is with them, they should have to accept the responsibilities of their position and cede, assuming that no other agreement can be reached.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You're not part of the group that is at risk then.

Like, there are plenty of people who have alts and just publicly link them to their accounts such that anyone with 10 minutes of time can go look it up.

Like, there are bound to be alts who say "yes I don't care if you reveal who I am" and that's not the people we're talking about here because that is a non issue.

You got me all wrong. I don't want my alt revealed, certainly not while I'm still in the game. But if they already know it it's no big deal. They can just keep that bit of info to themselves.

ok but as I've highlighted in my posts, it's not just you who is affected, but the entire game state.

Additionally, you're not the one with the conflict on interest.

Finally, it's great that you don't care but there will be those who do, and for a very good reason.

[TheButtonmen]

based off previous situations i think anyone who really thinks the mods dont already know who alts are is kidding themselves lld

they already know this is just codifying it

[Lady Lambdadelta]

based off previous situations i think anyone who really thinks the mods dont already know who alts are is kidding themselves lld

they already know this is just codifying it

I mean, given we're now codifying it, is this not the time to discuss this?

[TheButtonmen]

imo youre worrying about nothing

if anyone starts pressuring the mod to reveal who an alt is then the mod can just tell them to go fuck themselves and keep playing and if youre worried about mods abusing power to gain an advantage they already could under the current system

[Lady Lambdadelta]

neither of those were concerns I raised in my posts, did you read my posts?

[TheButtonmen]

i did yes

my original response addressed those points, nothing changes under the new system from the current one in all of those regards

i was addressing new issues that will occur now that we codify it and the knowledge that mods know you are is now public

mods have always known who you are, there have never been hidden alts here just from the barebone tools i had access too while operating the title fairy booth i can assure you of that

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You say "you" like it''s personal, when I have exactly 0 non public alts.

Your statement doesn't address the concern though. So what if the mods have always been doing it? Just because something was done doesn't mean it should have been done.

[TheButtonmen]

it was a generalized you

as for the second point i can only speak for myself but i honestly cant be arsed to worry about mods potentially gaining a tiny edge because they know who an alt is, its a tiny advantage that comes up infrequently as much as it pains me im forced to agree with anix

I think exactly the opposite way: The ability of users to freely and anonymously use alts in a game should come secondary to the ability of those who take on additional responsibilities to serve this site

also from a purely logistical side what youre proposing makes no sense because we can say that mods need to say "I have no knowledge of the identity of any alts in this game". but what happens when someone reports something in gd and when they open it up they find out the identity of the alt? would you say they need to replace out or then post a disclosure in the thread that hey guys [Redacted] is an alt and i know who they are now?

[Firebringer]

LLD you are the one spousing that meta is shit all the time anyways, i don't understand why you care if mod knows someones main in a game at all.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Zoraster, can we talk legal precedent for a moment?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p7096589

Given mods have been reprimanded for revealing hidden alts in games prior, where is the stance of the moderation team on this?

Because "Also, it's worth noting that while staff members shouldn't use their position to try to gain an advantage in a game, their official duties may mean they discover your identity." makes it sound an awful lot like "mods won't go out of their way to look you up but if they happen to be privy to some knowledge that they wouldn't otherwise, fair game?

Like I just want to know what the standard moderation response to "A Moderator has revealed who I am to the other players in my game while I was playing on an alt" will be.

It's a good question. A moderator shouldn't reveal who you are to others in your game. Generally their power of detection should be kept to themselves (and other mods) in their official capacity. Part of the problem before was revealing a secret identity to the game in general. The problem wasn't that the mod himself knew the identity of a secret alt.

Where does this coincide with playing to your win condition?

I mean, I'm not an advocate of meta but there's plenty who are

and considering just how powerful that knowledge is... You could see where the player may be stuck in a situation where they now need to choose between not completely playing to their win condition and not breaking this rule?

How is this issue handled?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Reading is tech.

[Firebringer]

Where does this coincide with playing to your win condition? I mean, I'm not an advocate of meta but there's plenty who are and considering just how powerful that knowledge is..

I missed this somehow.
So meta is useless but it is also powerful tool?

What?

Anyways, I agree mods shouldn't play in games where they would have an "edge" against players because they know mains, but many alts become public, some people are good at figuring out secret alts mains, and so on. I think policing mods and trying to make it so they don't play in games is going too far....

Mods don't play in many games as far as I am aware anyways.
Like how many mods are in games right now?
2?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

the knowledge of who alts are is a powerful tool for someone who actually uses meta, yes.

[Firebringer]

VOTE: LLD
Holding two opposing ideas at same time is scummy.