Rule Addition Regarding Hiding Identity from Staff

[Zachrulez]

Never gets old.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Generally Alts are over-used on MS. And I find they don't usually end up serving the purpose they are intended for as Alt Slips are such a common occurrence these days. One well known user who will remain nameless has blow at least 3 secret alts since my return this year in games I've played.

[vonflare]

alts are used in other ways than masking your meta tho. Like, a themed alt for a game, a mod alt, hydras, etc.

Alts should definitely not be banned entirely, as at least 2 people seem to think, and I personally don't have a problem with alts at all.

However, if people use an alt to sign up as a newbie, why wouldn't they just sign up as an SE or IC?

[AniX]

I don't think anyone is arguing banning alts. I see some people arguing they are overused or not viable for their stated purposes but that's hardly the same thing. I think they are just saying that IF there is unequal meta interactions between mods and alts it pales in comparison to the unequal meta interactions of alts to others players.

[Porochaz]

#banallalts

Also, more importantly

#banallhydras

[Porochaz]

[Vi]

What I mean is, let's say Bob has his tell. Playing as "Bob" would be our set neutral or control.

Bob=0

If Bob plays as Albert, it gives him an advantage in the game because people won't know his tell.

Bob + Albert = 2

A mod who knows the alt will know that it's Bob.

Mod = (the advantage of)Albert

Bob + Albert - Mod = 0

So, since both Albert and Mod are greater than 0, each confers an advantage. If you think Albert doesn't give an advantage (or as much of one), Mod doesn't confer much advantage, because it is, in essence, a nullifier.

Bob's initial score is negative. Using the alt puts him back to zero. That's why people use alts.

Well, other than for trolling.

Somewhat beside the point though.

[Clumsy]

I could see it that way too. But either way, the advantage of the moderator knowing the alt is no greater than the advantage (or loss of disadvantage) of the alt in the first place. For the record, I don't want alts outlawed. I just think that the issue brought forth in this thread is less than or equal to what already exists with alts.

[callforjudgement]

Most alts are known by a subset of players already. Often when I've been playing in a game with an apparently secret alt in, half the players already knew who it was, and lead to some amount of confusion to me because they didn't want to "give away who it was".

As such, adding the site staff to the list of people knowing who the alt is is hardly problematic, and something that's clearly necessary to run the site properly. (As a game moderator, I rely on the list moderators to let me know if someone's trying to join my game under two different accounts; it makes more sense for the list moderators to have the information needed to check for that, than for

every game mod

to need to know. Luckily, that particular form of cheating is rare and tends to be caught quickly.)

[Gamma Emerald]

I've only seen that form of cheating once and it was on another site.

[Allomancer]

#banallalts

The mods should ban one person every day to appease the hungry masses.

ftfy

Additionally, looking at it from the other perspective, how do you reconcile the advantages this could grant a member of the moderation team?

And I'm not talking about abuse or breaking the rules states here, I mean that there now exist a set of players on site who may or may not have the knowledge of who you are, when much of the point of an alt is often to remove just that.

No matter how you look at it, it provides a significant consideration, even if the moderator DOESN'T know who the person is.

Because the mod is gagged on speaking about it, players are left to make their own assumptions about whether or not the mod knows the identity of the user and thus whether that factors into the strength of their read or how other people view them.

There's just no possible way it doesn't shift the dynamic of the game, at least in some small capacity.

[Allomancer]

Bob's initial score is negative. Using the alt puts him back to zero. That's why people use alts.

[Kublai Khan]

If I'm being honest, I don't think moderators should be allowed to play in games with alts.

Or they should be forced to publicly reveal at the beginning of the game "I have no knowledge of the identity of any alts in this game".

That's a reasonable request.

But generally mods are an the honor system (much like players are). I trust that moderators to know that the game of mafia is based entirely on knowledge versus lack of knowledge so they have to play at an even level to the other players. If they know that Bob is Albert and it's public info, then whatever the info is out there. But they know that Bob is Albert and the info is private, then they should recuse themselves from the game.

I remember the last game I played I kinda freaked out because I knew a post had been reported. I didn't check who reported it or for what reasons, but I was afraid that the knowledge of the existence of the report was an unfair advantage and I had to contact the Game Mod and List Mod for advice.

[Kublai Khan]

#banallhydras

^this

[zoraster]

I'm doing a fair bit of stuff behind the scenes that takes up my time here, but if someone wants to check to see if we've had more no-hydra games after our subtle change in policy regarding them on April 18th? It'd require looking at maybe... 6 months before and the 6 months after and see the rates at which either (a) hydras weren't allowed or (b) hydras didn't play as both are useful metrics.

[Realeo]

I'm doing a fair bit of stuff behind the scenes that takes up my time here, but if someone wants to check to see if we've had more no-hydra games after our subtle change in policy regarding them on April 18th? It'd require looking at maybe... 6 months before and the 6 months after and see the rates at which either (a) hydras weren't allowed or (b) hydras didn't play as both are useful metrics.

What is this April 18th policy? I may want to help...

[callforjudgement]

The policy is that mods are now asked to explicitly state whether they want hydras legal or banned (except in queues like Newbie and Normal which ban them outright), rather than games entering signups without a clear policy on hydras (often leading players and mods to assume they were allowed by default).

[Elbirn]

However, if people use an alt to sign up as a newbie, why wouldn't they just sign up as an SE or IC?

They're a cheater cheater pumpkin eater

It doesn't really help that there is a rule stating that even if you are are alt, you cannot play a newbie game at all until that account has enough game experience to play as an SE/IC

I really see no reason why an alt couldn't just /in as SE while declaring themselves to be an alt, contacting the list mod with their main account to verify

[Cheery Dog]

I believe it's because we want newbies to be able to read part games of the people they're playing with. Or might have been the general idea.

At least that's how I felt in my first game when the game's mod stuffed up and gave a newbie and an SE account the wrong way around in my first game. (Neither previous slot had posted, so the fact one was a townie and the other mafia barely made a difference)

Also alts are allowed to replace into newbie slots

[Mr. Flay]

If I'm being honest, I don't think moderators should be allowed to play in games with alts.

I will gladly come back to the site when all alts are banned.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If I'm being honest, I don't think moderators should be allowed to play in games with alts.

I will gladly come back to the site when all alts are banned.

Alright folks, you heard it here. Someone get it done. #BanAllAlts

[mykonian]

nexus for admin!

[GreyICE]

nexus for admin!

Please no

[mykonian]

[davesaz]

On another site I've been in the position of being a mod with the ability to potentially uncover info which is meant to be secret.
The answer is to have a policy within staff that mods will voluntarily replace out if they uncover info that gives them an unfair advantage.
That's how we did it, and the player community was fine with it. We knew the mods were vetted before being given the position, and only trustworthy people would be invited to begin with.
I feel pretty confident the same degree of care is taken here with mod selection.