Shadow_step Mini Normal Review

[Shadow_step]

So should I go ahead with this ?

[Shadow_step]

You guys could be more active.

[mhsmith0]

Holiday weekend. Wrt setup, you've kind of been bouncing around bwteeen different ideas. Of the five or so ones you've put up lately, what is the one you like the most? I'd rather go with what you want as a template and work from there with tweaks than just keep bouncing around. For instance, I think you wanted five town PRs and three scum PRs? Is that still the case?

[Shadow_step]

Or this

Mafia

Odd night neighboriser
Goon
JOAT (rb+tracker+commuter)

Town

2 shot watcher(ascetic)
Even night rolestopper
Vanilla cop
Desperado
2 shot GS

5 VT

I think this is nicely balanced? Maybe town have a little more power? I removed strongman and made watcher ascetic so that they cannot be protected night 2 just by claiming day 2. Gave mafia JOAT a doc ability which is useless but to wifom them about the possibility of a vig or SK.

Consider my latest always

[Nexus]

Is ascetic a normal modifier? I forget

[mhsmith0]

Yes ascetic is normal for any alignment.

[mhsmith0]

@shadow: my sense was you wanted a 5 town pr, 3 scum pr game. Is this correct? Or is 96 what you actually want, with whatever additionally needed modification?

[Shadow_step]

I'm fine with this now.
3 maf PRs is causing too many balance issues

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I think #93 and #96 are both balanced set-ups and I'd be happy pass either.

Assuming the others agree, we'd just need to see role PMs.

[mastin2]

Drop the gunsmith and I'd be fine with it, but as-is, I'd say the town's too strong.
Gunsmith has a miller in the form of the desperado (who can EASILY prove their role and become conftown from it because scum vigs are blacklisted and desperado is a vig variant) but is otherwise a straight-out cop. And the scum can't claim vig here thanks to the desperado. A guilty is a flat-out guilty, and an innocent is a hard-innocent. (I do believe that the JOAT still shows as having a gun because their role is not Mafia Doctor. Doctor is simply a power there. So all results are basically accurate.)
The watcher, and the rolestopper, furthermore would mean that the scum get absolutely FUCKED over a single guilty.
Guilty scum N1. Scum block them N2 if the JOAT lives, but are caught by the watcher doing so. JOAT gets lynched. Scum are down to one member and now must kill the watcher, AND the gunsmith, and this while dealing with the rolestopper.

That's just plain unfair to the scum.

If this were a worst-case scenario, that'd be one thing.

But this is not at all in any way even REMOTELY a stretch--it's not a simple unlikely possibility, but a very strong PROBABILITY to occur.

But minus the gunsmith, that same setup is golden: no scum stick out as possible liars from their claim alone (aside from the ever so slightest of possible concerns between a JOAT with a tracker with a follower/JOAT with a doctor with a rolestopper, but I don't think that's a major issue), given the odd-night/even-night/non-consecutive night roles. The town has two decently reliable ways of finding the scum: the follower and the watcher. The rolestopper gives them decent strength. The vanilla cop is a mostly net-neutral, slight positive lean for the town, helping their investigations and confirmations. Given the Desperado to give the town an extra edge (even though the Desperado is, statistically speaking, almost assuredly just gonna shoot town), and they're neither overpowered nor underpowered.

The scum's neighborizer is similarly a mostly net-null: it is not gamebreaking for them to have, but can potentially be used to help influence the game. And their JOAT with its track can further give them information. They have a doctor shot which can help provide them with cover, and a single roleblock to help weaken the town's synchronization.

The town works well together, but is gated; the scum can disrupt the town and blend into the town, further masking their presence.

I mean, if, say, all players truthfully claimed D1, the town would realize they have too many power roles, sure.
But they don't have any way of discerning who the liars are, not without extra lynches and flips and guesswork off of play.

So THAT I would call balanced.

But with the gunsmith, fuck no, that's begging for a town landslide.

[Shadow_step]

GS gets a false on vanilla cop too.
Maybe make it night 3 GS or something or make it 1 shot.

[Shadow_step]

Also going to need help with the bb codes and stuff for role PMs. I have no idea.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

If you go to preview mode, it has all the tags (if the syntax is unclear, just hover over the button).

[Shadow_step]

Spoiler: Watcher Role PM

Welcome [Player], to Mini Normal ...

You are a

Town Ascetic 2 Shot Watcher

Abilities

:

Passive:

Ascetic-During the night phase, any actions which target you are ignored aside from those which would kill you.

Active:

2 Shot Watcher-On two nights night you may target a player to be watched, thus discovering if that player was targeted in the same night phase and if somebody did who. You will receive a Private Message from the moderator containing the names(s) of the players.If for any reason your night action fails you will get a "No Result" as the result of your investigation.

Win Condition

:

You win when all threats have been eliminated and there is at least one town-aligned player alive.

[mhsmith0]

@mastin2: re: 109, mafia neighborizer is WAY stronger than I think you think

Spoiler: mini normal games with mafia neighbor or neighborizer

all games 10/3 unless otherwise noted, non-neighbor PRs are listed
1460 mafia neighbor, mafia win (BG, odd cop, miller JOAT vs 2-shot RB)
1462 mafia neighbor, mafia win (2x masons, 1 neighborizer-JK)
1463 mafia neighborizer, mafia win (gunsmith, BG, even vig)
1618 mafia neighbor, mafia win 10/2/1 (RB, even rolecop, neighborizer, sunsmith, commuter vs odd hider, SK)
1666 mafia neighbor, mafia win (tracker, 1-shot BP, cop, 1-shot vig vs RB, godfather)
1685 mafia neighbor, mafia win (IC, vengeful, JK vs encryptor)
1687 mafia neighborizer, OTHER mafia win 9/2/2 (neighborizer shot N1)
1733 mafia neighborizer, mafia win (commuter, cop, IC, backup vs godfather)

eight games and the only one where a mafia neighbor or neighborizer failed to win was a 9/2/2 when the other mafia shot him N1. This suggests that mafia neighborizer is an incredibly strong role, and/or that towns are incredibly weak against it.

wrt the potentially cheap combo, that would require:

1) gunsmith gets a guilty (as opposed to hitting the v cop or the desperado)
2) scum fail to kill gs OR rolestopper OR watcher


And the thing is, town's power is pretty limited and heavy on early game stuff (watcher/GS are both 2-shot, desperado is 1-shot), the only real mid/late game power is the even night rolestopper and the vanilla cop, neither of which are really THAT useful (rolestopper might stop 1 kill but kills aren't tracked, and would cancel out watcher if that happened anyway, and the odds of RS stopping 2 kills to buy another ML are pretty remote).

So I guess if you're worried about the gunsmith leading to a nasty run, I'm probably ok with turning the goon into a 1-shot doctor, solely as a counter to the GS, although in that case I'd say make the GS 3-shot instead of 2, or maybe odd night, since we'd be notably nerfing GS functionality.

[mastin2]

Stats for a mafia neighbor are different than stats for a mafia NEIGHBORIZER.
Neighborizer is a much weaker role.

I also maintain that with this many roles in the game, not only is it incredibly swingy, it is also just not fair to the scum, especially since they can't effectively work their way out of any result on them. Gunsmith result on them? They get vigged. Watcher result on them? They get lynched. VT claim with evidence to the contrary? Lynched or vigged. Doctor? (A possible claim.) They get lynched. Roleblocker? Probably getting lynched! Cop? Definitely lynched. Rolecop? Turbolynched. Neapolitan? Still lynched. Tracker? In a game with a gunsmith and a vanilla cop, there's a good chance that gets lynched. Same for Follower. Commuter? Also somewhat doubtful and convenient, so lynched. JOAT with a truthful claim? Without the gunsmith I can see that role being believed by the town. (Albeit only 50/50.) It's actually REMARKABLY plausible in the game. WITH the gunsmith in the game, there'd be no way that would pass a review. (Being, JOAT with decent abilities + rolestopper which is arguably a stronger doctor + gunsmith + vanilla cop + watcher + desperado. That'd be SIX strong town roles, only slightly gated. Minus the gunsmith, you get "five" town roles--a bit of a stretch still, yes, but plausible enough to be believable. "Six" town roles, however, would never make it past ANY reviewer. This, ignoring the neighborizer. That puts things at "SEVEN town" roles.)

The gunsmith gives zero scum flexibility. They have no wiggle room whatsoever. If they play perfectly, sure, maybe they manage to disrupt the town coherency enough to win. But it requires exactly that: playing perfectly.

As the game is now, I don't see the scum ever winning short of pure blind luck. We're talking, "lynch a PR D1, scum kill a PR N1 without being caught, repeat for D2/N2", luck.
Which, sure, is possible.

But not probable. Not even really plausible.

Gunsmiths are insanely powerful in games. They are

just

weaker than cops. Stronger than Neapolitans, in that they have fewer false guilties and more correct innocents. If you wrote in a 2-shot cop, regardless of the scum's PRs, you could have two other town roles--just two--and that setup alone would be balanced pretty much, regardless of what those extra two town roles were, because the two-shot cop would be THAT powerful.

And this is that same power...except the game already HAS a ton of power.

[Nexus]

How we getting on here? Do we have a finalised setup, OP and role PMs?

[Shadow_step]

How we getting on here? Do we have a finalised setup, OP and role PMs?

Waiting on Mastin and Mh to agree on the setup.

[mastin2]

So, no, not particularly.

[mhsmith0]

How about:

Mafia

Odd night roleblocker
Goon
JOAT (role cop+tracker+commuter)

Town

2 shot watcher(ascetic)
Even night rolestopper
Vanilla cop
Desperado
2 shot GS

5 VT

[mhsmith0]

Actually:

Mafia

Odd night neighboriser
Goon
JOAT (rb+tracker+commuter)

Town

2 shot watcher(ascetic)
Even night rolestopper
Vanilla cop
Desperado
3 shot GS

5 VT

Basically mastin and I substantially disagree on the power of the neighborizer, but we all agree roleblocker is really strong, and it mechanically makes the "gotcha" scenario materially less likely for scum. I'm also willing to give the mafia like a 1-shot doctor instead of the goon SOLELY as a counter to the gunsmith if it's needed for balance I guess.

[mhsmith0]

Jeez i suck at this

Actually:

Mafia

Odd night roleblocker
Goon
JOAT (role cop+tracker+commuter)

Town

2 shot watcher(ascetic)
Even night rolestopper
Vanilla cop
1-shot Desperado
3 shot GS

5 VT

@shadow, mastin, CES: thoughts on that proposed setup? obviously town prs COULD steamroll, but a roleblocker has realistic chances of shutting town power down, and I'd think that any game with a roleblocker SHOULD have potential "town can crush" outcomes if the rb dies early or is ineffective (or town should have a bunch of passive roles that the RB can't stop, bp IC masons etc)

[mastin2]

I hate the setup.
Hate the setup to the point where I wouldn't want my name listed as a reviewer, hate.
It's swingy as fuck. It has five fairly powerful town roles against two fairly powerful scum roles.
I would strongly recommend against running a setup like that.
I would warn that in postgame, players--regardless of their alignment--are going to rant about how unbalanced the game was, ESPECIALLY the losing team.
It is not the kind of setup I would EVER want to see run.

But.
To my eye.

Technically speaking

.
I think it fulfills balance requirements.
So I'd begrudgingly write it off as passing, once I saw the role PMs and whatnot.

[Shadow_step]

Odd night neighboriser
Goon
JOAT (rb+tracker+commuter)

Town

2 shot watcher(ascetic)
Even night rolestopper
Vanilla cop
Desperado
2 shot GS

5 VT

I'd really prefer if we used this setup and tried to balance this.

What if I change the GS to 1 shot BP townie?

[mhsmith0]

Mafia
Odd night neighboriser
Goon
JOAT (rb+tracker+commuter)

Town
2 shot watcher(ascetic)
Even night rolestopper
Vanilla cop
1-shot Desperado (I would suggest you make this clear in role PM and in role title)
1-shot BP

Fine I guess. It'll probably be super swingy based on whether the watcher gets anything useful and/or whether desperado shot hits scum on D1 (presuming they shoot then), but basically any setup with this many PRs is gonna hit that kind of issue. Probably scum-sided but reasonably in range with the standard "town gets five PRs" type mini normal. Also it makes it more plausible that town will stop two kills with the BP and rolestopper, although I'd PROBABLY say that the rolestopper should be odd night instead of even night to give town just a little bit more kill stopping power.