New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

[mhsmith0]

Now, if you want to get into the specifics of her town play and how EFFECTIVE she is vs how effective you are, or various other differences in play, that's a different story (in rio soah basically spent a decent chunk of day 1 ripping her for being awful town, which was kinda funny). But in terms of the nature of engagement with the game, yes, I think there's a decent parallel.

[mhsmith0]

I mean, there's also a difference where a common town tell for Titus is being super derpy about something (espeically when it gets her scum-read by people), and I don't get that sense from you, but in the "bleeding emotion onto the page" sense where you don't do it the same way (or at least not nearly as easily) as scum? Yeah, comparable.

[pieguyn]

I don't mean to say your assessment of my tone is wrong. in fact, it's pretty accurate and I'm a bit relieved that you've come to the realization that I'm a much more pragmatic scum player who knows as scum how to avoid the intense situations that I usually get into when I'm town. I just have no idea how I feel that of all the people to compare me to, you picked _Titus_. -.-

are you going to address my 3422? the purpose of the post was largely that if you're town, you should be able to read it and see my explanation for my play this game all in one place and reconcile where you were going wrong with the read on me - I still have no understanding of why, in the first place, you actually found my approach scummy.

[mhsmith0]

yes I'll address it. I wanted to get around to looking you a different way before trying to look at it, since I wanted to both be a bit more removed from where i was yesterday as well as having a better idea whether I wanted to push harder or actually re-evaluate

PS There is literally no player on MS who I feel more consistently good about soul-reading than Titus. Which is kinda fun since she's pretty decent as wolf and gets pushed a lot (I think) as town

PPS
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p8196397
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p8196438
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p8196491
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p8198933

was i think the first time I really fleshed out my ability to read her. A completely and utterly miserable game on almost every front, but I was right aobut that

[mhsmith0]

btw if you were RC I'd probably still be saying you were just ATE'ing

[pieguyn]

oh god, I do not even want to talk about my history with Titus soul-reads.

I used to have a 100% rate reading her (albeit not for the same reason you seem to use), then in one game she pushed a bunch of ridiculous stuff that was completely incomprehensible to the point where I thought it was impossible anyone would think it as town, I lynched her D1 claiming 100% accuracy, she was town. I would have been lynched the next day if not for my hydra partner being even more readable than I am.

[mhsmith0]

then in one game she pushed a bunch of ridiculous stuff that was completely incomprehensible to the point where I thought it was impossible anyone would think it as town,

That's a Titus town tell lol

[pieguyn]

it's usually a scum tell for her, if you evaluate based on my model of reasonability!

[mhsmith0]

@Kagami: Still waiting on an answer to this by the way

I don't understand why you haven't been actively pushing people to place votes given your belief in the merits of vote analysis.

THAT is your objection here? Really?

The question is whether you're town who is extremely passionate about people dying via lynch rather than vig, or scum who has latched onto this as a pro-town talking point.

Yes, that is a useful question to consider. Why do you think my interaction with the current non-voters (since one way or another we're going to eventually reach majority) is important wrt sorting the larger question of whether i'm sincere in my giving a damn about voting data or not?

[mhsmith0]

it's usually a scum tell for her, if you evaluate based on my model of reasonability!

titus is good at being reasonable as scum. as town she sometimes does lol stuff
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p8558253
^there's me town reading her for pushing an outed mason (with no cc! in an open setup!) on the day before LYLO, a push that helped get her mislynched

for some people reasonableness is a scum-tell, but frankly I'd say that stuff that's seemingly unreasonable but that the person actually believes is actually an incredibly strong towntell

[pieguyn]

also, mhsmith, who do you want to lynch?

you seem to no longer want to lynch me. you don't want to lynch Jester, despite acknowledging that he's more scummy than not. there are only 20 hours left. so, who?

[mhsmith0]

honestly, I've reread my interaction with mhsmith earlier now that I've had some time to calm down and think about it and I still don't think my criticisms of him are unreasonable at all.

first off, to put the context for all of this in one place, I've made it pretty clear at this point that I don't find it productive to sit here and argue about a single best lynch - I want to identify pairs that are town and lynch the remaining pairs, so as long as this gets accomplished, I don't care *too* much about what order we lynch and thus who gets lynched right at this point in the game. my preference for Jester is purely positional, so that I can talk reads with Kagami and/or Nahdia after what is hopefully a scum flip and the intermission, after the game has calmed down a bit, but I won't cry tears of blood if the lynch lands on someone else unless significant pressure starts to build on a pair I think is very town. there is also that this game is really fucking chaotic and it is very difficult to keep on top of it at the level required to create significant momentum sway, and I don't want to exhaust myself unless I really really need to, aka one of the pairs I think is very town becomes a potential lynch, which also plays into my choice of strategy here.

I think this is really really obvious if anyone has so much has read my posts in this game. there is absolutely nothing I've said that indicates I'm approaching this game in any other way and I do not believe that this approach is unreasonable at all. so what happened?

first, mhsmith comes in here and criticizes me for wanting to lynch Jester despite having a stronger scum read on him - if you read 3302, this is apparently supposed to be some smoking gun that gives him reason to vote me. when I point out that I had already said why I want a Jester lynch over a lynch on him, he ignores it and tries to say that "I'm not pushing Jester hard enough" or "I'm not working hard enough to derail the S_S wagon", so it's invalid.

then I come in and express that I don't think there is any way he'd be this oblivious to my approach as town, and that he should have been aware of the reason I want a Jester lynch and to make this push anyway despite knowing that is disingenuous.

Note: This is where I threatened to suicide on him.

The basic issue is that your jester push essentially amounts to "he's not doing anything", which isn't a nothing case, but is a pretty weak case to be just kinda sitting on the wagon for, all the more so since you'd expressed some suspicion of shadow/maria AND suspicion of me. It didn't make any sense to me why you'd be taking what was effectively a strong "we should only lynch here" position (via your continued voting there over other realistic options), compared to what you'd been saying about me, especially with what seemed like a relatively weak set of reasoning on your end. Scum!you finds a reason to not be on our wagon. Town!you? It felt to me like town!you should be voting us.

what he said after that has basically amounted to

- not doing enough to push Jester or derail S_S again. when I try to explain to him that I don't have much of a reason for doing either of these things, he ignores me and continues to push that I need to be doing more anyway.

- not doing enough to "prove" either of my town reads - again, when I try to explain to him that Dunn isn't anywhere near lynch, he ignores me and continues to push that I should explain it anyway, and moreover, he's agreed with me on SAD/scout (he almost certainly response to me saying SAD/rscout is town/town over and over), so I have no idea why he even complained about this.

- he tries to continue to push me choosing to vote Jester as odd, and if you look at 3341, he

uses me suiciding as a reason for my read on Jester being off.

see, Parama said mhsmith might have missed or forgot about why I'm approaching the game the way I am, and that's fine, but if you've forgot something, you don't fucking make this response when someone points out what you missed. there's no acknowledgement of what I said there - he read what I said and didn't back down, which he would not do if he accepted my explanation, which means he tried to use me threatening to suicide as some reason that what I was saying about my read progression wasn't valid, which is a disingenuous response because all of this stuff about threatening to suicide came *after* everything I said or did about Jester, not before it. I've asked for a response to this three or four times, nothing.

- me suiciding not making sense given my approach to the game - when I clarified that I wasn't serious about it, he ignored me and continued to say "I don't really trust you and your constant threats to suicide" anyway.

- continuing to needle me over "not doing enough", despite the fact I had explained it several times.

So here's my thoughts on the posts between us (double-ISO pie and me and go to 3241 and later posts)
P 3241 - looked like posturing without any follow-through
M 3244 - reaction to seeming posturing post, with a put-down of your posturing around suiciding as well (and ftr, I've harped on the idea that it was game-throwing a lot, not just relating to your threats on that front). I still don't see why this was an unreasonable reaction to what looked like a nothing post from your end.
P 3258 - reaction to my 3244. doesn't really address what's wrong with the post, just makes a larger point about my play, without any substantive support. to me looked like you were dodging/shade-throwing
M 3260 - I challenge you to self-vote and put your money where your mouth is
P 3261 - reads like "I'll do it eventually, but only after another lynch or two" (which to me read like "after another mislynch or two"). again read like empty posturing
M 3264 - I defend my reaction, again pointing out that it reads like empty posturing with no real action behind it
M 3267 - pointing out that 3241 came with no substance behind it. Just something said and essentially left out there to hang
P 3279 - reads like shade-throwing
M 3282 - I again called you out for not voting me given your stated suspicion
P 3290 - So looking at this again, the issue again is an incongruity. You say yourself explicitly that it doesn't matter what the singular best lynch is, and yet you're placing your vote away from the major wagon, not really doing anything to move the ball forward and it, and it felt weird as hell to me. To me that didn't make sense; why is town!you not voting on a higher vote wagon if it doesn't matter who we lynch, or doing something active to make the jester wagon happen if that's what you actually want? Yes, you made an explanation, but to me it felt like an excuse. And the "suiciding" point was answering something that I didn't actually say, since self-voting and suiciding are (in my mind) not the same thing at all in this format.
M 3294 - I push you on why you're not doing anything that would be in line with what seem to be your stated values (probably should have thrown in a "vote for a bigger wagon since you say it doens't matter who we lynch among the big wagons" option). But there were a bunch of things you could have been doing, and instead you weren't really doing any of them. This bothered me.
M 3299 - I point out a possible theory on why scum!you might want to embrace that strategy that you've used as an explanation for why you haven't done more. I also point out my disagreement with the strategy, including why I disagree with it
M 3302 - I throw down the "vote me if you're actually serious about this read" gauntlet
P 3304 - you respond with a "no fucking way you're town" bit
M 3306 - I challenge you to vote me if you're that sure I'm scum
M 3308 - I push for you and Maria to engage each other on the subject
P 3310 - you come up with a theory that (to me) looked like total made up BS where you're making an excuse for why I'm scum but aren't voting me (having your cake and eating it too)
M 3312 - I challenge you again on why you're not voting me under your theory that it doesn't really matter which pair gets the axe
P 3314 - rather than engage with my points, you call me "deliberately dense"
P 3315 - question about my game awareness
M 3317 - I challenge you on 3314 and your earlier 3310, since a red flip on my end would have only made your dying reads look stronger (and my "deflection" look worse)
M 3318 - I answer your reading question
M 3319 - I express further skepticism that your engagement with me on this front is real
P 3320 - you referenced an earlier post explaining why you weren't voting me (though interestingly, that didn't explain why shadow/maria wasn't a fair option)
M 3323 - i pull up that particular post and challenge you to actually game-solve presuming my scum flip (since as you said, you wanted a scum flip to discuss with nahdia/kagami first) (FWIW, i thought that this was a particularly good post, since it offered you the chance to engage in that kind of solving immediately, given that this was your stated concern)
P 3328 - you pull up a bunch of posts demonstrating that I should be aware of your earlier point about not wanting to self-vote and get hyper-angry that I'm supposedly unaware of the post (though I'd just cited it directly in 3323), even though if you were *really* sure of my scum flip (especially if you were NOT super sure about the jester flip, which is my sense rn given the lack of anything like a smoking gun), to me it'd seem to make much more sense to just be voting me even if it results in not your ideal game state (scum lynch but you're dead)
M 3330 - i challenge you on why you're not doing anything useful, either to push the jester lynch (if that's actually something you're sure on or strongly prefer), or find a second solid town/town pair (since SAD/scout could overnight, or you could be wrong about them), and then crap on your suicide threat (which to me looked like BS, since again you could have simply been voting me if you were actually serious about wanting me dead)
P 3332 - you defend yourself by noting you only need one correct town/town pair to win, and also note your t/t read on kagami/dunn (FWIW I'd note that you potentially need TWO correct pairs in case the first one is shot, and also if you happen to be wrong about that pair read, then if you hinge everything on it then you've blown the game)
P 3335/6 - you note that I agreed with your t/t read on SAD/scout and don't get why I'd complain about it, saying I'm "not thinking critically"
M 3338 - I accurately note that you haven't done much to support the kagami/dunn town read (which even given your theory world would seem pretty important in case SAD/scout gets shot or is wrong)
P 3339 - you restate that you had a reason for preferring a jester lynch and accuse me of spinning
M 3340 - I point out that part of your complaint on me is that I wasn't doing much, but that such a complaint equally applied to you, and that i substantively disagreed with your dunn town-read, and threatened that him/kagami could be a potential lynch after my flip (i.e. if you acknolwedge the possibility I'll flip town, leaving a legacy behind for a dunn town read should be a priority in case i flip town)
M 3341 - I challenge you on your seeming hypocrisy in threatening to suicide while not wanting to vote me (in the world where you're scum, best option is not to die, 2nd best option is to suicide, worst option is to actually get wagoned leaving behind a legacy of potentially useful voting data)
P 3342 - You make a post that responds to my "why aren't you doing anything about substantiating/convincing on the kagami/dunn" point by deflecting onto your SAD/scout town-read and accusing me of saying you should be somehow convincing everyone (as opposed to the much more realistic "you should be doing work to either convince some people or at least leave a legacy behind on that read" point I was making). this is actually a pretty scummy deflection IMO.
P 3343 - You again react to my post, without substantive explanation
M 3344 - i point out that, rather than doing massive effort, you're not doing anything useful wrt dunn/kagami
P 3345 - you're either deflecting or just emotionally reacting by saying I'm just bullshitting
M 3346 - I react to your post as if it was serious
P 3348 - You say that you haven't substantiated dunn/kagami because everyone believes it, and I'm scum anyway (my point was that your "it's unreasonable to think I'll convince everyone" was wrong, as I simply wanted to know why you hadn't done ANYTHING on that front)
P 3349 - you note it was a stunt
P 3350 - you accuse me of calling suicide gamethrowing just because you were talking about it
P 3353 - you point out that your suicide threat was in response to why you weren't voting me
M 3355 - I express my inability to know whether you're serious or not, and reiterate how it's gamethrowing regardless of who is doing it, and that if you were truly serious about wanting me dead you should be voting me
M 3356 - I point out that it's bizarre that you're voting someone you don't have a strong case on, while being supposedly sure I'm scum, and that it's legitimate to attack you on that basis
P 3358 - you push the idea that I'm not reading your posts, and that my entire argument hinges on me being unaware of your stated reasoning for why you're voting jester (as opposed to simply being skeptical about said reasoning)
M 3360 - I point out that I'm not convinced by your reasoning
M 3361 - i push you on why you weren't doing anything wrt your dunn town read
P 3362 - you note you made the case in the PT (which doens't address why i might find it a merely ok case)
P 3363 - Bizarre theory about what I'm trying to do here (at the time i thought it was just BS on your front, I guess in hindsight I can see it as being conf!biased towards me being BS'ing myself)
M 3364 - i point that you made an ok case, not (IMO) a great one (and given the strong preference for a jester lynch suggested by your voting pattern, it seemed very strange to me that you'd not have made a stronger case on him)
etc.

...

this is not fucking town. every single time I attempt to explain to him how what he's pointing out fits in with how I'm playing this game on a general level, he ignores me, and finds some trivial thing to nitpick over to make it look like he has a point. when I try to explain to him why it isn't necessary for me to do more in this game, he ignores me and says "you've still done nothing, you need to do more" (in contrast to this, I explained my approach to Maria after she started poking me and she understood my play immediately). when I try to explain to him why I prefer a Jester lynch over a lynch on him, he starts going on a tangent about "oh, your case on Jester isn't that good, you should rehash the case", despite this not having anything to do with my point and despite him not attempting to argue at any point in the game why Jester wasn't a good lynch (I've told him the Jester posts he called town weren't town in our PT, no response). he is not attempting to understand my mindset here at all: what he is doing is reading my posts sequentially, finding things to nitpick over in each one in order to make it look like he has a point, but he isn't trying to grasp how it all connects together and actually understand anything I'm doing, he's just interested in creating a gigantic argument that people read and go "o, this is town/town!".

this also fits with my assessment of his posts and how he has played this game in general, in that they all just seem really shallow and like he's floating through the thread, commenting on whatever is going on at the time but not displaying any depth of thought that indicates he's actually game solving here.

The big issue here is, I simply didn't believe you, and a substantial number of your posts at me looked like posturing, deflecting or just BS (and in fact you now admit that some of what you've done, namely the suiciding stuff, WAS posturing; and some of your specific posts at me WERE deflecting).
Like, if I didn't have a playstyle/tonal town read on you, I'd be fine with re-voting you, because re-reading our back and forth I really wasn't impressed. Even with a meta town read on you I really struggle to see some of the points you were making, and think my reactions to what you were saying were pretty consistently reasonable and understandable. I dunno, maybe we just don't get each other, but I thought I was being exceedingly clear in what I was doing and saying, and it seemed like you were either over-reacting or choosing to not actually address my points, and that only made me suspect you even more.

[pieguyn]

... WTF, you cannot possibly be this oblivious.

everything I've done this game has been completely congruous with my mindset this game, which I explained in full in the first paragraph of that post. I specifically told you that what I wanted you to do was read that, try to think about my play this game and what I wrote in the first paragraph of the post and understand why I've been playing the way I have been, and then once you understood it, if you read the rest of the post, you'd be able to see that from my POV, our interaction read like you nitpicking me over a bunch of stuff that should have been pretty clearly wrong in hindsight.

I cannot comprehend how, instead of doing this, your response is to PBPA the entire interaction again and try to act like your push on me still holds water. because that sure as hell doesn't seem like a town response - what it seems like is that you're afraid to admit your push on me was wrong, for fear that you'll look bad over it, so you still try to act like your points hold water.

how on earth do you possibly think that basically repeating the entire interaction, just in one post, will help each other understand where we're coming from? it didn't then and it won't now, and the only conclusion I can draw is that you are not trying to understand why I'm playing the way I am at all.

also, the case on Jester is a perfectly fine case. he has done literally fucking nothing, and it isn't just about the fact he isn't posting - it's the fact that even when he *has* been here, his posts have been completely awful. he has no fucking scum reads outside of what are pretty much consensus scum reads on GE, Kagami, and you if you're town. he has not attempted to actually poke at anyone, probe anyone for information, or actually accomplish anything in the game. that isn't town, no matter how you look at it - town might be inactive but they still try to scum hunt *when* they actually show up to the game thread.

[pieguyn]

the entire reason I reacted so strongly to you pushing me was specifically *because* you were making a huge deal over things that held no water, and I had absolutely no idea how you could have thought so little about how my strategy this game tied into how I was playing. that's the reason I wanted to make the that post. I wanted to collect all my thoughts in one place, so that you could understand my play and why I came on so strongly in response to you and figure out how you ended up disconnecting to that extent with how I was playing this game.

how does just PBPA'ing the entire interaction again help with this? all you did was basically just say the exact same thing you said across those 2 pages, just in 1 post.

you don't seem to be demonstrating that you actually want to think about your points on me at all.

[pieguyn]

and I'm aware that you meta-dived me and shit, but in my experience it is so, so, so easy for scum to genuinely make meta reads on town players and genuinely town read people via meta, so while I think it does lean very slightly on the town side it's nowhere near a solid town tell, especially when it does make sense as a last-ditch scum play to try and get town read and then find some reason to flip off of pushing me.

if you think this is paranoid, work with me here. show that you actually give a fuck about sorting me and understanding why I've been playing the way I have been.

[pieguyn]

because from where I'm sitting, it really feels like you're not. I tried to explain it as clear as possible and your response was "let me just repeat the entire 2-page interaction again in one post, I'm still not sure why you think my posts were reasonable".

[mhsmith0]

You asked me to explain myself and my perspective, that's what I was doing. I thought that was pretty obvious. Like, you had a long "here is what smith is doing and it's total bullshit", and in response I explained what I was doing in rather substantial detail.

Frankly, I've reached the point where I've gotten a town-read of you independent of that series of posts, which I suppose is good since I still can't actually understand you there and re-reading it just reminds me of why I suspected you in the first place. Whether you like what I've done there or not is, to be honest, increasingly little of a concern of mine. You wanted my $0.02 and for me to explain myself, i did so. If you continue to dislike it, then either read me independent of our interactions or figure something else out, because our back and forths continue to be unproductive (unless my tonal/meta read of you is completely wrong I guess, in which case lol smith).

wrt Jester, he has under 100 posts. Is it really that hard to look at them and actually get into more substantial detail about why he's being actual scum instead of just shitty or baity? Why is that such a burden that you seemingly aren't motivated at all to bother? Why is it unreasonable of me to be concerned about the possibility that he's just another easy mislynch after the first easy death came through? Like, I'd say that this wagon is largely your baby; for most others, it seems to be more or less just a "well they're not really a town read, so I guess we can potentially compromise there if needed" (which is not exactly the kind of board perspective I'd normally expect about scum playing badly - if anything I'd expect some kind of bus, or maybe a harder push elsewhere, or really anything at all other than "well fuck it we can eventually go there if we need to I guess")

[pieguyn]

first off, to put the context for all of this in one place, I've made it pretty clear at this point that I don't find it productive to sit here and argue about a single best lynch - I want to identify pairs that are town and lynch the remaining pairs, so as long as this gets accomplished, I don't care *too* much about what order we lynch and thus who gets lynched right at this point in the game. my preference for Jester is purely positional, so that I can talk reads with Kagami and/or Nahdia after what is hopefully a scum flip and the intermission, after the game has calmed down a bit, but I won't cry tears of blood if the lynch lands on someone else unless significant pressure starts to build on a pair I think is very town. there is also that this game is really fucking chaotic and it is very difficult to keep on top of it at the level required to create significant momentum sway, and I don't want to exhaust myself unless I really really need to, aka one of the pairs I think is very town becomes a potential lynch, which also plays into my choice of strategy here.

read this paragraph, specifically.

then, look through my ISO, read my posts again, and see if you can reconcile how I'm playing with what I've written in this paragraph.

and no, the aim here is not to get you to town read me. I want to know exactly why you ended up assessing my posts the way you did.

[pieguyn]

wrt Jester, he has under 100 posts. Is it really that hard to look at them and actually get into more substantial detail about why he's being actual scum instead of just shitty or baity?

having absolutely no scum reads whatsoever falls below the territory of bad-town. town might go inactive at some points, but when they don't attempt to make any kind of push on anyone whatsoever even when they are there, that falls below bad-town territory and into scum territory.

and I can't exactly go into more substantial detail about content that _isn't fucking there_. what are you expecting me to do?

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Okay you guys need to stop I don't even care if one of you is scum at this point the other needs to realize the other scums are sitting back enjoying the free coast. And if you're both town stop because this back and forth is just creating massive amounts of opportunity for scum to skate under the surface.

Please answer the following questions without a million words:

What is your read on the other person. IN ONE SENTENCE. And rank your lynch/wagon preferences.

[mhsmith0]

More specifically, I explained in detail where I was reading you as being posturing or deflecting, and why that made sense at the time. And it absolutely did.

So if your perspective is "Smith needs to actually understand why I'm doing what I'm doing", well, I don't. I don't get it. I don't understand why you're choosing to play in the way that you're choosing to play. I think that your "find one town/town pair and fuck everything else" strategy is anti-town to the point of insanity (what if that pair gets shot? what if you're wrong about that pair? what if town actually takes your advice and sleepwalks right into LYLO and then incorrectly tinfoils about that pair?).

I think that your jester push has been lazy and weakly founded (and think your accusation that my defense of him was bad was even less founded since you've essentially just said "it's bad" without actually explaining why you think it's bad - EBWOP that's essentially it, he's doing nothing. Doing nothing to start with, doing nothing under pressure. He's not trying to fake up "useful" content to buy time, he's literally doing nothing at all, and to me the lynch amounts to "let's get rid of the useless slot that town is just kinda drifting off onto lynching" which does not exactly scream to me "Yeah that slot is super likely scum").

I think that your continual reasons (excuses?) you provide about why you're not doing more (while simultaneously accusing me of being "cagey and defensive) is either opaque or just hypocritical. I think that you're making a conscious choice to not be particularly useful, and it makes you difficult to read (and you yourself have admitted that you're not being as towny as usual), and the fact that I suspect you in that context seems sufficiently unsurprising that your over the top reactions seemed like fake histrionics (before actually meta'ing you to realize that this appears to be completely uncommon for you in particular as a player). I find your lack of interest in substantiating or critically engaging in your dunn/kagami town read bizarre and nearly impossible to understand, unless "I just don't feel like it" is truly the answer.

Shall I go on? Like, I've consistently said what I think and why I think it, especially in my back and forth with you. I truly don't understand what is actually unclear about it. If you want to actually understand what I'm saying, and something is actually unclear, try actually asking about it. Because I've absolutely answered your 3422. If you hand-wave it off as PBPA without critically engaging it, that's on you. If you hand-wave a whole bunch of my posts with responses like

Spoiler:

god mhsmith's posts on this page.

if anyone wondered why I was calling him "cagey and defensive", this is why. I'm pretty sure most people are in agreement by now, though.

there is absolutely no fucking way you're town.

like legit, there is absolutely no fucking way you're town if you actually just made these posts.

yeah, now you're being deliberately dense so I'm not continuing this conversation

Like, you literally are just straight up not thinking critically at all if you actually believe these posts.

And yet you just threatened to suicide right? Because it's a perfectly normal town perspective to be like "I don't want to actually lynch my pair, but suiciding works great as an option" right?

Holy _fuck_, you cannot be serious.

Like you're just flooding the thread with bullshit now and hoping people accept it as truth without thinking critically about it.

I'm stepping away.

yeah you're not even reading my posts, you're just doubling down on this "your choice of votes is bizarre" angle because you know you're utterly fucked if you admit you were aware of why I want to lynch where I do

Of course I'm aware of the logic you posted. I even quoted it. I just find it non convincing, especially since I don't see the obvscum on jester. Maybe you should recase him since that's in your mind the optimal lynch right now? Because it seems like you're more interested in justifying why you're on jester than you are in actually proving he's scum.

I have literally already made the case on Jester to you in our PT. Holy fuck you cannot be this dense.

Like you literally have no answer for why you'd attempt to nitpick my choice of votes despite being aware of why I'm voting the way I am.

You literally are just blatantly dodging the question.

You just keep repeating "durr it's still a bizarre choice of votes!". You cannot be so dense that you see me approaching the game in a way different from what you think is standard (the idea of voting your strongest scum read) and just write it off as that it clearly has to be because I'm scum.

Like holy fuck you are just flooding the game with nonsense in an effort to distract everyone from the Jester lynch.

The jester lynch has completely stalled out, so if you're serious about then clearly you need to be doing more work to actually make it happen, but instead you're putting more effort into bitching about me calling you out for your lack of effort there than you actually are putting effort into making that lynch happen since you're supposedly so serious about it.

Yeah you're not town.

Like god you literally cannot be this fucking dismissive.

then I'm not the one being unclear in my process. And I'm not the one being dismissive either.

[pieguyn]

What is your read on the other person. IN ONE SENTENCE. And rank your lynch/wagon preferences.

null-scum, prefer Jester first, then S_S, then mhsmith.

mhsmith moved up purely because I just don't know and if it really came down to it I'd lynch S_S first so I'd get second dance/intermission to try and get a read on him that I'm more sure of.

[mhsmith0]

Okay you guys need to stop I don't even care if one of you is scum at this point the other needs to realize the other scums are sitting back enjoying the free coast. And if you're both town stop because this back and forth is just creating massive amounts of opportunity for scum to skate under the surface.

Please answer the following questions without a million words:

What is your read on the other person. IN ONE SENTENCE. And rank your lynch/wagon preferences.

I think pie is PROBABLY town, but the possibility that this is just bullshit designed to fuck with me and ATE instead of critically engaging with me bothers the fucking hell out of me.

Vote preferences
VOTE: shadow-maria
dunn-kagami
mds-jester

I think HS is pretty likely town, and while I don't mind seeing the back and forth between you and Parama and figure out if it ever gets to the point I'll get something useful, I'm not really in the mood to vote either of your pairs (I also don't know wtf to think about the mutual accusations between you and Parama of bussing shadow at this point either).

[mhsmith0]

Okay you guys need to stop I don't even care if one of you is scum at this point the other needs to realize the other scums are sitting back enjoying the free coast. And if you're both town stop because this back and forth is just creating massive amounts of opportunity for scum to skate under the surface.

Please answer the following questions without a million words:

What is your read on the other person. IN ONE SENTENCE. And rank your lynch/wagon preferences.

^slight town points for this for SAD btw since he actually seems to care about engaging with the situation. Unless pie is scum, in which case it's probably worth re-evaluating.

[pieguyn]

More specifically, I explained in detail where I was reading you as being posturing or deflecting, and why that made sense at the time. And it absolutely did.

So if your perspective is "Smith needs to actually understand why I'm doing what I'm doing", well, I don't. I don't get it. I don't understand why you're choosing to play in the way that you're choosing to play. I think that your "find one town/town pair and fuck everything else" strategy is anti-town to the point of insanity (what if that pair gets shot? what if you're wrong about that pair? what if town actually takes your advice and sleepwalks right into LYLO and then incorrectly tinfoils about that pair?).

I think that your jester push has been lazy and weakly founded (and think your accusation that my defense of him was bad was even less founded since you've essentially just said "it's bad" without actually explaining why you think it's bad - EBWOP that's essentially it, he's doing nothing. Doing nothing to start with, doing nothing under pressure. He's not trying to fake up "useful" content to buy time, he's literally doing nothing at all, and to me the lynch amounts to "let's get rid of the useless slot that town is just kinda drifting off onto lynching" which does not exactly scream to me "Yeah that slot is super likely scum").

I think that your continual reasons (excuses?) you provide about why you're not doing more (while simultaneously accusing me of being "cagey and defensive) is either opaque or just hypocritical. I think that you're making a conscious choice to not be particularly useful, and it makes you difficult to read (and you yourself have admitted that you're not being as towny as usual), and the fact that I suspect you in that context seems sufficiently unsurprising that your over the top reactions seemed like fake histrionics (before actually meta'ing you to realize that this appears to be completely uncommon for you in particular as a player). I find your lack of interest in substantiating or critically engaging in your dunn/kagami town read bizarre and nearly impossible to understand, unless "I just don't feel like it" is truly the answer.

Shall I go on? Like, I've consistently said what I think and why I think it, especially in my back and forth with you. I truly don't understand what is actually unclear about it. If you want to actually understand what I'm saying, and something is actually unclear, try actually asking about it. Because I've absolutely answered your 3422. If you hand-wave it off as PBPA without critically engaging it, that's on you. If you hand-wave a whole bunch of my posts with responses like

Spoiler:

god mhsmith's posts on this page.

if anyone wondered why I was calling him "cagey and defensive", this is why. I'm pretty sure most people are in agreement by now, though.

there is absolutely no fucking way you're town.

like legit, there is absolutely no fucking way you're town if you actually just made these posts.

yeah, now you're being deliberately dense so I'm not continuing this conversation

Like, you literally are just straight up not thinking critically at all if you actually believe these posts.

And yet you just threatened to suicide right? Because it's a perfectly normal town perspective to be like "I don't want to actually lynch my pair, but suiciding works great as an option" right?

Holy _fuck_, you cannot be serious.

Like you're just flooding the thread with bullshit now and hoping people accept it as truth without thinking critically about it.

I'm stepping away.

yeah you're not even reading my posts, you're just doubling down on this "your choice of votes is bizarre" angle because you know you're utterly fucked if you admit you were aware of why I want to lynch where I do

Of course I'm aware of the logic you posted. I even quoted it. I just find it non convincing, especially since I don't see the obvscum on jester. Maybe you should recase him since that's in your mind the optimal lynch right now? Because it seems like you're more interested in justifying why you're on jester than you are in actually proving he's scum.

I have literally already made the case on Jester to you in our PT. Holy fuck you cannot be this dense.

Like you literally have no answer for why you'd attempt to nitpick my choice of votes despite being aware of why I'm voting the way I am.

You literally are just blatantly dodging the question.

You just keep repeating "durr it's still a bizarre choice of votes!". You cannot be so dense that you see me approaching the game in a way different from what you think is standard (the idea of voting your strongest scum read) and just write it off as that it clearly has to be because I'm scum.

Like holy fuck you are just flooding the game with nonsense in an effort to distract everyone from the Jester lynch.

The jester lynch has completely stalled out, so if you're serious about then clearly you need to be doing more work to actually make it happen, but instead you're putting more effort into bitching about me calling you out for your lack of effort there than you actually are putting effort into making that lynch happen since you're supposedly so serious about it.

Yeah you're not town.

Like god you literally cannot be this fucking dismissive.

then I'm not the one being unclear in my process. And I'm not the one being dismissive either.

so you push me because you disagree with my play style, without even bothering to understand it first.

you are not this arrogant. I refuse to believe you think "she's playing a way that I can't understand, I guess she's doing it because she's scum" is a valid argument.