New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

[mhsmith0]

wrt Jester, he has under 100 posts. Is it really that hard to look at them and actually get into more substantial detail about why he's being actual scum instead of just shitty or baity?

having absolutely no scum reads whatsoever falls below the territory of bad-town. town might go inactive at some points, but when they don't attempt to make any kind of push on anyone whatsoever even when they are there, that falls below bad-town territory and into scum territory.

and I can't exactly go into more substantial detail about content that _isn't fucking there_. what are you expecting me to do?

Frankly, I don't know at all. I feel like it's a lynch that's being backed into, and if he's scum it doesn't seem like he's being bussed (unless by you), and it doesn't seem like anyone is all that interested in saving him (FYPOV, that person could be me I guess). I literally seem like the only person here who is critically engaging with the possibility that he's just really shitty lynchbait, which really bothers me. Like, if he flips scum, great, I'm a dumbass, who cares. And if he flips town, we'll have learned not a whole hell of a lot, while the main benefit is that at least he's the most useless player alive, so things could be worse.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

I think HS is pretty likely town, and while I don't mind seeing the back and forth between you and Parama and figure out if it ever gets to the point I'll get something useful, I'm not really in the mood to vote either of your pairs (I also don't know wtf to think about the mutual accusations between you and Parama of bussing shadow at this point either).

Probably because I correctly called the scum strategy of bussing/distancing early for massive town-points that they can use to ride to endgame, and then called Parama out on doing it. So then she plays:



I'm too tired to put effort into creating a yugioh card myself.

[pieguyn]

HS, are you reading this?

can you give me a second opinion on something? I want to know if you disagree with me that the paragraph I quoted in 3617 does, in fact, make it 100% absolutely clear why I'm approaching this game the way I am.

I've been assuming that it does. I gave Maria pretty much the same explanation, and she understood my play immediately. I have no idea how someone else can look at it and think "this is completely unintelligible", and this is my issue with how mhsmith is playing.

[Parama]

i'm gonna be honest in that i don't care to read the back-and-forth wallposting between smith and pie

it's just not worth the effort when i don't particularly want to lynch the pair anyways

[mhsmith0]

so you push me because you disagree with my play style, without even bothering to understand it first.

you are not this arrogant. I refuse to believe you think "she's playing a way that I can't understand, I guess she's doing it because she's scum" is a valid argument.

I have tried to understand it, I have failed. I have tried to understand why you're not doing what would actually seem consistent with your stated goals, and have received in turn deflections, suicide threats, dismissive "you cannot be this bad" type posts, and accusations about my just not trying hard enough to understand you. SHOCKINGLY, this has not proven an effective strategy on your end in terms of getting me to understand you.

Frankly, and IMO this is pretty disgusting, the only thing I'm really town-reading you for is your emotional involvement, and even THAT came as a result of my push on you that you seem to think was somehow insincere bullshit, even though said argument rests on INCREDIBLY shaky things like "smith has to pretend like he never saw my reasons for acting like i have" (even though i literally quoted them and expressed skepticism) or wacky theories about what (essentially insane) things I might somehow be attempting to do as scum.

Meanwhile, i have played in a pretty fucking transparent manner, ESPECIALLY when dealing with you, and yet your read on me is somehow that I'm "cagey" and just not being clear in what i'm thinking. Like, what the serious fuck? How could you possibly believe THAT, and at the same time represent that you've been making a bona fide effort to understand MY play? Or is this a one-way street, where I am required to go the extra mile to understand you, but to hell with going the other way?

[Parama]

sad's doing that thing that always bothers me where his initial argument that i'm scum hinged on shadow being scum, but then the moment he found anything he could latch onto and push as scummy he shifts his attention from the person he was originally pushing to go gung-ho on lynching the "buddy" instead of, you know, the person he's piled up dozens of posts against

i really don't understand how nobody else is seeing this, it's really blatant

[mhsmith0]

I think HS is pretty likely town, and while I don't mind seeing the back and forth between you and Parama and figure out if it ever gets to the point I'll get something useful, I'm not really in the mood to vote either of your pairs (I also don't know wtf to think about the mutual accusations between you and Parama of bussing shadow at this point either).

Probably because I correctly called the scum strategy of bussing/distancing early for massive town-points that they can use to ride to endgame, and then called Parama out on doing it. So then she plays:



I'm too tired to put effort into creating a yugioh card myself.

Possibly but it's past midnight and I have a headache and don't really want to reread it and rethink. At some point, just like pie has asked HS for a second opinion, I'd just as soon have someone weigh in on whether the numerous posts I've made at pie are somehow unfair or unreasonable, because if they are I'm simply not seeing it.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Okay so

Me
Parama
HS
Kagami
mhsmith
pie

Are willing to get on Shadow wagon.

inspector
Maria
Shadow

Aren't.

That leaves:
MDS
Jester
Dunn
Cerb
Nahdia

You need to decide if you are down to lynch Shadow or not in like a yes/no answer. I don't want to sift through a waffly 5 paragraph response on your life story and how you met Shadow when you were 3 years old and fell in love with him and now your love is inseparable but what if he is scum????? and you can't decide for the life of you! and then your conclusion is "idk if I want the lynch or not".

[pieguyn]

Frankly, and IMO this is pretty disgusting, the only thing I'm really town-reading you for is your emotional involvement, and even THAT came as a result of my push on you that you seem to think was somehow insincere bullshit, even though said argument rests on INCREDIBLY shaky things like "smith has to pretend like he never saw my reasons for acting like i have" (even though i literally quoted them and expressed skepticism) or wacky theories about what (essentially insane) things I might somehow be attempting to do as scum.

OK. it's frankly really terrible of you that every single time I try to walk you through my mindset this game and tell you why I'm approaching various things the way I am, you just handwave dismiss it as "I don't understand it so what you're saying is invalid, my point still stands", too, so I guess we're even.

just because it falls outside of your worldview of things you understand, you act completely incapable of reading my posts and realizing the way I've acted has been commensurate with my stared beliefs in the thread.

[pieguyn]

I second guess whether mhsmith is the type of player who can feign frustration like this, at least. someone who knows mhsmith better than me can confirm or deny this or I can go look at his games myself.

[pieguyn]

EBWOP *stated

[mhsmith0]

Frankly, and IMO this is pretty disgusting, the only thing I'm really town-reading you for is your emotional involvement, and even THAT came as a result of my push on you that you seem to think was somehow insincere bullshit, even though said argument rests on INCREDIBLY shaky things like "smith has to pretend like he never saw my reasons for acting like i have" (even though i literally quoted them and expressed skepticism) or wacky theories about what (essentially insane) things I might somehow be attempting to do as scum.

OK. it's frankly really terrible of you that every single time I try to walk you through my mindset this game and tell you why I'm approaching various things the way I am, you just handwave dismiss it as "I don't understand it so what you're saying is invalid, my point still stands", too, so I guess we're even.

just because it falls outside of your worldview of things you understand, you act completely incapable of reading my posts and realizing the way I've acted has been commensurate with my stared beliefs in the thread.

I have tried to understand it, I have failed. I have tried to understand why you're not doing what would actually seem consistent with your stated goals, and have received in turn deflections, suicide threats, dismissive "you cannot be this bad" type posts, and accusations about my just not trying hard enough to understand you. SHOCKINGLY, this has not proven an effective strategy on your end in terms of getting me to understand you.

I. Have. Tried. I have tried to understand you, not just whether or not it's consistent with what you say your aims or, but whether that seems a villagery process and how much I believe that it's not just a strategy.

"I plan to do x"
Does x

That? That's fakeable. Coming up with a "plan" (that I've made clear I don't think much of, and why i don't think much of it), and then following said plan, is completely wtihin the range of what even a semi-competent scum player can pull off, so reading you on that basis is not something I consider particularly legitimate or meaningful.

What I care about is determining your alignment, which is what I have attempted to do. My interactions with you have CONSISTENTLY been geared around that, or explaining myself to you. It's all I can do. Literally that is it. If that's the limit of my emphathy, or skill as a player, or whatever, well, it is what it is.

[mhsmith0]

I second guess whether mhsmith is the type of player who can feign frustration like this, at least. someone who knows mhsmith better than me can confirm or deny this or I can go look at his games myself.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... ith0/Games

Frustration examples as town
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=66731 (with basically everyone because I was completely fucking miserable as part of a town that literally did not give a shit)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=66795 (mainly with ploben, but also with panther for not bothering to explain how the hell he was TRing ploben)
^two good examples of frustrating games as town

Frustration examples as scum
http://playdiplomacy.com/forum/viewtopi ... 40&t=52626 (crunkus was pushing me almost from page 1, and I got super frustrated about my lack of success [this came during a period of pretty consistently bad performances by me] - you may also note how I started to just lurk it out and more or less surrender any WIM, though it's old enough that you may not care)

mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/1337-Fruit-Salad-Mafia
frustrated because I was suspected as early as d1

As scum I get frustrated because I'm playing badly, as town I get frustrated because I'm in a board that's playing badly or because I can't get through to someone (or many people), or because I'm struggling to understand things, etc. The nature and driver of my frustration are different. As scum i don't give a shit about understanding people and struggle to pretend to, and often don't even really bother to try and represent that kind of emotional engagement as a process (fortunately for me, in a decent # of town games that doens't especially come up as an issue so it's not necessarily glaring).

You can MAYBE come up with comparable cases in multiball, because I at least kind of try to play it like town (and I can actually scum-hunt) but this isn't multiball so that's irrelevant.


PS for bonus points, go look at newbie 1714 (main thread and scum PT) and see what my emotional reaction to towns playing badly is. Like, I never get frustrated by that either, which means that if I'm scum, then my seeming frustration over the game-throwing Vedith did earlier was totally fake, where my ACTUAL scum play there would probably be just to avoid making a comment there out of fear it would sound fake (since it would be fake and I'm not great at faking emotions)

[pieguyn]

literally all of our interactions have been me trying to explain to you why I've been playing the way I have been, and then you just respond with what amounts to "I don't understand why you would do this, your explanation is invalid" and you effectively completely ignore my response and continue to push the same thing.

you just assume that if I'm doing something that you don't understand, it's clearly because I must be scum. that is a fucking arrogant mindset and my issue is that I don't know how much I believe you would be that arrogant as town. I don't believe you would truly think that your way of playing is the only valid way of playing and that when I tell you "this is why I'm doing X" and it falls outside of the List of Behaviors mhsmith Thinks is Reasonable, you say I must be scum for it instead of the alternate explanation - that you're just fucking wrong about the way I've chosen to approach the game.

that's where my issue with your play lies.

[pieguyn]

I mean, yes, there are times when someone does something that actually is scummy, or contradicts themselves, and then when you question them about it they don't have a good answer. and in that scenario, yes, you have every right to continue questioning over them.

the difference here is that there is nothing - absolutely nothing - that is contradictory about how I've acted this game. and this is why I fucking hate the way you're interacting with me on a personal level - you don't actually try to think and understand at all, you just say "oh, I've tried to understand and I still don't. that must mean you're scum!".

if you've "tried to understand" and you haven't, then no, it doesn't make me scum, it means you just haven't fucking thought hard enough to actually understand my play.

[pieguyn]

for the record I don't even know if I believe you're scum for this anymore. at this point, I continue to comment on it because the way you're treating me is straight up pissing me off.

[mhsmith0]

At literally no point in this game have I said that you must be scum. Literally never. I have on multiple occasions said I suspected you were scum, that your strategy was fakeable, that your explanations were unconvincing, etc.

The person who said the other must be scum? That's what YOU have said. Not me. You.

So if you're going to represent tha extreme level of ignorance of WHAT I HAVE ACTUALLY FUCKING SAID IN THE THREAD then maybe, just maybe, the problem here is you. Maybe what is needed is for a YOU to critically engage with what I've been saying, and do things OTHER THAN
-deflect
-misrep
-come up with insane theories about how I'm somehow being batshit crazy scum
-tell me "there is absolutely no fucking way you're town.

like legit, there is absolutely no fucking way you're town if you actually just made these posts." and then follow it up with the idea that I have been calling you lock scum instead of the other way around

Understanding? This a two way street. Maybe you need to start acting like it.

[mhsmith0]

for the record I don't even know if I believe you're scum for this anymore. at this point, I continue to comment on it because the way you're treating me is straight up pissing me off.

This is exactly how I feel fwiw.

[mhsmith0]

Anyway I'm going to bed. I'll check in sometime before EOD. I seriously need a break from this game.

[pieguyn]

At literally no point in this game have I said that you must be scum. Literally never. I have on multiple occasions said I suspected you were scum, that your strategy was fakeable, that your explanations were unconvincing, etc.

The person who said the other must be scum? That's what YOU have said. Not me. You.

OK. if you want to argue semantics, replace "say I must be scum" with "say you suspect I'm scum", "say it's fakeable", or "say it's unconvincing" - the logical point is you suspecting me and seriously believing that I'm scum.

I cannot believe that I seriously just had to say this.

[pieguyn]

but if you want to talk about "deflections", you literally just made that post and didn't respond at all to the key point I was attempting to make, so.

[pieguyn]

like legit, there is absolutely no fucking way you're town if you actually just made these posts." and then follow it up with the idea that I have been calling you lock scum instead of the other way around

when this whole thing first started I was thoroughly convinced you were scum, yes, since you were pushing me over things that I assumed you knew better than to push.

after it calmed down a bit, I realized there was probably some misunderstanding going on and I stepped back and made my wall post so that I could collect all of my thoughts in one place, and write them out clearly so that I could be sure that you understood where I was coming from instead of getting caught up blitzing posts at each other.

everything I tried to do after that was aimed to get you to read my posts and reevaluate based on what they actually contained - see: me telling you to read the paragraph I quoted in 3617, read through my ISO again, cross-reference things if you needed to until you realized where you were going wrong on me.

now you've demonstrated that you *do* understand where I'm coming from, but it doesn't mean jack shit to you because it isn't what you would do and you completely ignore the motivation I have stated *in the game thread* to push that what I'm doing is scummy because ... I'm not playing how you would expect? it isn't exactly how you would have played in that position? you can't infer any other reason I might be playing this way besides what I've said in the game thread, which you haven't accepted because... ???

[MiniDeathStar]

You're going to have to explain why you continuously play the "go ahead and lynch me" card without literally using it in the explanation. Do not end your response with "go ahead and lynch me if you don't believe me", or anything like that.

Pretty sure I've already done that about 5 times. ISO me.

[MiniDeathStar]

I will hammer Shadow if he gets to L-1 but I'm not voting there otherwise.

[Human Sequencer]

MHSMITH AND PIE ARE BOTH TOWN
pie, mhsmith is town, you are arguing over a fickle misunderstanding between how you both approach the game
mhsmith, pie is town, you are arguing over a fickle misunderstanding between how you both approach the game
the wording and the stance both of you have taken has become warped and misconstrued in the others' head because you've antagonized each other as 'the bad guy' while scum is sitting back and coasting to victory. even after you admit the other might be town, you're still waffling.
it's ok, i understand smith has problems with emotions (it's a whole new world to him!), and i understand why pie is frustrated, but this argument isn't getting either of you any further.
all this argument will do is lose town the critical analysis and sharp eye smith has, and the pleasantries of having pie in the thread. this is because it will end in either one/both of you burning out of the thread or one/both of you getting rundown by scum and turned into a wagon.

now apologize, have an emotional reunion and remarry <3

i am not lynching that pair today. smith is obvtown and pie bleeds town the more she posts. smith's meta post is also very valid.

two more people have mentioned support for shadow/mariar. plz lets lynch this.
VOTE: mariar/shadow