New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

[Dunnstral]

I thought parama was my partner?

Regardless, I don't care if jester is lynched. Actually, I do. I don't care If they get lynched... eventually. If everyone ignores me and lynches whoever for the second day in a row we're going to have problems and it honestly doesn't matter what they flip because they're still ignoring my points

that was a hypothetical where I was thinking about Jester being scum and one or more of {you, Parama} being scum with him. I just don't have the ~feeling~ either of you are acting like a Jester lynch is really problematic for you, hence I've stopped to question it.

When did you start to scumread me?

[mhsmith0]

What's the incentive for scum to prop up a town-town pair at this stage of the game?

I don't think you're a town-town pair.

So? Your argument is that PIE, if town, should be questioning the town-reads on her. My point is the only way that logic holds together is if she thinks I'm scum. If she doesn't think that, and if she is town, then why would it make sense for scum to be propping us up? "I don't think you're town/town" doesn't address that point at all.

[pieguyn]

I thought parama was my partner?

Regardless, I don't care if jester is lynched. Actually, I do. I don't care If they get lynched... eventually. If everyone ignores me and lynches whoever for the second day in a row we're going to have problems and it honestly doesn't matter what they flip because they're still ignoring my points

that was a hypothetical where I was thinking about Jester being scum and one or more of {you, Parama} being scum with him. I just don't have the ~feeling~ either of you are acting like a Jester lynch is really problematic for you, hence I've stopped to question it.

When did you start to scumread me?

this game day.

your reads so far have been terrible.

[Parama]

also, more about the nuance thing, Parama's push on S_S for the entire duration of this game was very aggressive, but I think it was aggressive in a way that's indicative of scum, not town - they basically just made up a scum slip based around something that wasn't a slip at all and continued to hard push it the entire day to the exclusion of everything else besides SAD's pair (who I also think is town).

1. again, mds agreed it looked like a scumslip, gamma agreed it looked like a scumslip, and as town, i have no way of knowing whether or not shadow is scum but it looked like a goddamn scumslip to me
2. acting like i never said anything else about shadow is blatantly untrue. he kept doing scummy things even aside from the scumslip. i called them out quite a number of times.

[pieguyn]

I frankly don't remember finding any of the reasoning for S_S scum compelling at all; the "scum slip" is merely the most egregious point.

I supported him mostly through POE at the end, but in terms of explicit scum reads? no.

I don't really care if "MDS agreed it looked like a scum slip" or whatever, it wasn't.

[Parama]

I thought parama was my partner?

Regardless, I don't care if jester is lynched. Actually, I do. I don't care If they get lynched... eventually. If everyone ignores me and lynches whoever for the second day in a row we're going to have problems and it honestly doesn't matter what they flip because they're still ignoring my points

that was a hypothetical where I was thinking about Jester being scum and one or more of {you, Parama} being scum with him. I just don't have the ~feeling~ either of you are acting like a Jester lynch is really problematic for you, hence I've stopped to question it.

i mean, jester is definitely not the lynch i'd want right now
sad's a better lynch, kagami's a better lynch

[Parama]

I don't really care if "MDS agreed it looked like a scum slip" or whatever, it wasn't.

so you're going to completely ignore any and all context and then scream that i'm scum for something i didn't do, got it

[pieguyn]

yes, yes, such a town reaction. totally not obfuscative at all

[Parama]

what do you want me to say. i've given you my counterargument and your response is basically a "no u"

[pieguyn]

yes, because certainly if a bunch of people agree on something, it's a true statement.

[Parama]

it wasn't a scumslip. i'm not arguing that.
to me, it looked like a scumslip. and i was not the only person of this mindset.

and again you're still ignoring literally every other point made against him. you know, the responding to any arguments with ad hominem, the lurking and only posting when called out, outright lying about things he said for no reason, pick your poison whatever you want the flavor of the day

[Parama]

i can't believe shadow's dead and flipped town and i still have to argue about him with people, omg

[pieguyn]

to me, it looked like a scumslip. and i was not the only person of this mindset.

I do not believe anyone else in this game saw S_S' 212 and thought, with absolute certainty, "this post is a scum slip", to the point where they insisted on it throughout the entire duration of the game day. I remember people commenting on it and kinda agreeing that it could be a slip, and that's a reasonable mindset to hold, as it was obviously not a slip and the reasoning you were using to insist that it was one was very nebulous, but I do not remember anyone else acting the way you did about it.

if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me and I'll probably recall why I thought it was different from what you did.

and again you're still ignoring literally every other point made against him. you know, the responding to any arguments with ad hominem, the lurking and only posting when called out, outright lying about things he said for no reason, pick your poison whatever you want the flavor of the day

I could easily quote everything you said about S_S and explain why I thought none of it held water, if you want, but I don't see much of a point (unless you're specifically asking me to do so, in which case... kyahaha).

[Dunnstral]

I thought parama was my partner?

Regardless, I don't care if jester is lynched. Actually, I do. I don't care If they get lynched... eventually. If everyone ignores me and lynches whoever for the second day in a row we're going to have problems and it honestly doesn't matter what they flip because they're still ignoring my points

that was a hypothetical where I was thinking about Jester being scum and one or more of {you, Parama} being scum with him. I just don't have the ~feeling~ either of you are acting like a Jester lynch is really problematic for you, hence I've stopped to question it.

When did you start to scumread me?

this game day.

your reads so far have been terrible.

Really? But you agreed with my read there yesterday

[Parama]

okay. doesn't change that i thought it was a scumslip. scumslips don't suddenly not become scumslips just because time passed.
and don't do that, it's not productive at all. i don't care what you thought about shadow. that doesn't discount what i thought about shadow.
you're arguing "i didn't see the arguments so therefore they were all entirely invalid" and i'm arguing "the arguments i made were why i believed shadow was scum" and it's just like
you're not seeing anything from anyone else's point of view is the main problem here

[pieguyn]

okay. doesn't change that i thought it was a scumslip. scumslips don't suddenly not become scumslips just because time passed.
and don't do that, it's not productive at all. i don't care what you thought about shadow. that doesn't discount what i thought about shadow.
you're arguing "i didn't see the arguments so therefore they were all entirely invalid" and i'm arguing "the arguments i made were why i believed shadow was scum" and it's just like
you're not seeing anything from anyone else's point of view is the main problem here

it isn't about whether it's correct or not. it's about the fact that the arguments you were making did not read like you were legitimately drawing your conclusions from things S_S was posting, they read as disingenuous attempts to spin behavior that was not scummy as scummy.

[Parama]

then i don't know what to tell you other than that you're wrong

[pieguyn]

I mean...

"tonally, the post came off like he KNEW Cv666 was town" is clearly such a good reason to be completely adamant that it was a scum slip for the entire game day, as opposed to him just poking Cv666 over what he thinks is odd behavior from town, right? clearly it's such an objective basis for forming a read that you can just write it off without stopping to consider that maybe you... were just misreading his tone, right?

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

i'm honestly convinced the mod flipped shadow wrong

@pie i wasn't even the only one who saw it as a scumslip, blame shadow for being piss poor at wording things

i can't believe shadow's dead and flipped town and i still have to argue about him with people, omg

Read these.

Actually read the logic and the intent.

This is not someone being self-aware they pushed a wagon on town. This is someone trying to cover their back for pushing a townlynch by blaming it on the person that got lynched.

[Parama]

i suppose i was. and?
i don't really see the point you're trying to make.

[pieguyn]

Really? But you agreed with my read there yesterday

which read, the read on Jester?

I still do agree with it, but that isn't one of your reads that I take issue with. first off, I have no idea why you think HS is scum when she's really obviously not - and no, "your self voting looks fake" is not a good reason.

second, the read on me feels completely made up, in all honesty. my progression on mhsmith I think is well enough documented in the game thread, and if you can read his posts around the 3600 range and not see why suddenly I might have cause to think that I had just gone way too far with the read on him, then as I said to scout, you're completely tone deaf. I also don't really buy that you saw that entire mhsmith/me shitstorm from right at the end of D1, and didn't stop to engage it or factor it into your reads at all. I think most people would read that, and see how much town bled from both sides of the interaction, and at least stop to think "oh hey, if one of these people is scum they sure know how to feign frustration. maybe I should see if I can look elsewhere!". as an example, Kagami seems to have backed off of my pair despite her pretty strongly scum reading mhsmith earlier. scum, on the other hand, would need to mislynch our pair and thus be more inclined to completely ignore/disregard it in order to push their mislynch.

recently, you have a lot of potshots towards me along the lines of "so as soon as I scum read you, I'm scum" (3928), which are shallow in a way I think are more likely to come from scum than town - it isn't about the fact you're scum reading me, it's the way you're doing it and the reasoning behind it. pushing someone does not give you immunity to being scum read by them, and I hold a fairly strong belief this comes more from scum who just want any way to make the person pushing them look worse than them rather than critically engaging.

I'm also not really sure why you're complaining that I want to lynch Parama's pair before mine, when 1. you scum read the same pair and 2. you seem to have some form of scum read on Jester.

[Parama]

i mean, shadow was scummy as heck. i'm not going to take responsibility for how scummy he played. why should i?

[pieguyn]

This is not someone being self-aware they pushed a wagon on town. This is someone trying to cover their back for pushing a townlynch by blaming it on the person that got lynched.

I do think this is them trying to cover their back for pushing a town lynch, but I think their mindset is more along the lines of, "everyone else pushed it too, why do you think you can single *me* out for it?"

[Parama]

you asked me

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

This is not someone being self-aware they pushed a wagon on town. This is someone trying to cover their back for pushing a townlynch by blaming it on the person that got lynched.

I do think this is them trying to cover their back for pushing a town lynch, but I think their mindset is more along the lines of, "everyone else pushed it too, why do you think you can single *me* out for it?"

This is what I mean, yes. Diffusion of responsibility by stating that he was scummy and that other people also pushed him.