New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

[Kagami]

Pie, I have meetings until 1pm, 3 hours from now. Let's chat then.

The best reason I have to townread Dunn right now is that he's been appropriately suspicious of me fairly often and said as much in PT. That's fake-able, but from what I've seen, he's not a master of subtlety by any means.

Dunn scum would imply a team of dunn-jester-sad or scout, to my mind, which seems pretty high energy.

[mhsmith0]

what does that post even mean

But



Okay then.

LYNCH PIESMITH

I'm bad at mafia so I'm allowed to do this. This is also exactly how the shadow lynch went.

what does that post even mean

If he's town, it means he doesn't mind being intellectually lazy with his push on me.
If he's scum, it means he's happy to continue being intellectually lazy since he's being collectively town-read anyway.

[inspectorscout]

Exactly what it says.

Pie called dunn scum for reasons. I did the same things she called him scum for, but called me town for them instead because I am a bad player.
Bad players yell 'lynch x' without saying why, and as I have given reasons yet nobody ever listens, I'm just going to repeat 'lynch x'.
It worked yesterday for S_S, so why not now?

(Also note that I believe pie just called me town for read consistency, something both me and dunn called her out for)

[mhsmith0]

>potentially
i don't see much reason for scumParama to post that unless SAD and Kagami are both scum, can you see a motivation there that i missed? if so, please share

Why can't scum!parama include 2 town-townpairs and 1 scum-townpair? What on earth makes you think that those are scum if parama is scum, but not mhsmith? If you believe she's double bussing, why can't she have just bussed mhsmith until now?

I am definitely not seeing your reasoning here. At the very least it's not sane.

HS has repeatedly (and pretty clearly) stated the reasoning for TR'ing me. The logic here seems to be consistent with that reasoning. "At the very least it's not sane" implies an exceptionally bad set of reasoning, which is interesting since you don't seem to be motivated to explain why it's terrible other than "well I think smith is scum".

Moreover,

that post looks towny as fuck to me. on the other hand, i was pushing kagami pretty hard for that, and i don't think anybody can argue that kagami's posts there were scummy as fuck. so it might be another attempt to pocket my by sharing my reads.

as town: parama is trying to solve the game, reads mds/jester as T/T and is legitimately unsure on smith's role.
as scum: parama is trying to potentially double-bus the scumteam for towncred and throws smith in there as the final mislynch plan. this is really fucking risky because at this point i'm still unsure on his slot and he knows this, so i could suicide if his bus lynches go through even if he gets insane towncred for it.
parama reads as a very logical and calculating player regardless of alignment, i don't think number 2 really makes any sense at all.

that's my thoughts on that post in particular.

represents an attempt to actually think through what parama might be doing as scum and why, which to me seems entirely reasonable. Why don't you clarify what's terrible about it (without relying on "well smith is scum therefore this must be terrible") if you feel that strongly?

[pieguyn]

I fucking hate this game.

[inspectorscout]

If he's town, it means he doesn't mind being intellectually lazy with his push on me.
If he's scum, it means he's happy to continue being intellectually lazy since he's being collectively town-read anyway

I don't mind being lazy because not being lazy also doesn't work. There is scum in your pair, and no matter if I give 2000 arguments for your pair to be lynched or 0 arguments for your pair to be lynched, nobody listens.

Also, I don't mind being scumread; I'm very often scumread, and I'm better at analysing attacks on me; now nobody is interested in that. If I can be honest it kind of feels really wrong to be townread while other people are sumcread for the same thing, yet another reason why I think pie!scum is a thing.

[pieguyn]

WHERE THE HELL ARE ALL THE SCUM IF JESTER/MDS IS A TOWN/TOWN PAIR AND PARAMA IS ALSO TOWN???

WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON

[pieguyn]

watch it be something ridiculous like Dunn/Kagami being a scum/scum pair.

no really I cannot think of anything else that explains this game if Jester/MDS and HS/Parama are *both* town pairs.

[mhsmith0]

Also, I don't mind being scumread; I'm very often scumread, and I'm better at analysing attacks on me; now nobody is interested in that. If I can be honest it kind of feels really wrong to be townread while other people are sumcread for the same thing, yet another reason why I think pie!scum is a thing.

Well unless you think pie and I are both scum and our entire back and forth was theater (which would imply a level of acting ability that I've never displayed before in a mafia game ever), pie!scum means that I'm town, and you're not exactly someone I'm taking all that seriously after your push on me. Like, you get that, right? So if your current theory is that I'm wrong and pie is scum, you're going to actually have to put substantive effort into clarifying why that is the case and pushing that read, because right now I'm comfortable thinking pie is likely town and you're either scum or really bad town, and in either case I'm going to have precisely zero incentive to sheep you (and I'd think that ought to hold true for most people). So if you're town, start to put actual thought into what you're doing. or be satistfied just using signguy tags and hoping that people will eventually randomly sheep you.

[inspectorscout]

HS has repeatedly (and pretty clearly) stated the reasoning for TR'ing me. The logic here seems to be consistent with that reasoning. "At the very least it's not sane" implies an exceptionally bad set of reasoning, which is interesting since you don't seem to be motivated to explain why it's terrible other than "well I think smith is scum".

But what I wrote, nor what she wrote, is about her own townreads at all. It's what scum!parama would do. I think it's a fair point that, if she analyses what she did, all options should be considered. This has nothing to do with my scumread on you, this has to do with her avoiding that option.

represents an attempt to actually think through what parama might be doing as scum and why, which to me seems entirely reasonable. Why don't you clarify what's terrible about it (without relying on "well smith is scum therefore this must be terrible") if you feel that strongly?

Because it is not representative at all. Again, this is not based on my scumread on you, it's based on how parama would think as scum, yet HS mixes in her own reads.

[inspectorscout]

WHERE THE HELL ARE ALL THE SCUM IF JESTER/MDS IS A TOWN/TOWN PAIR AND PARAMA IS ALSO TOWN???

WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON

Guess what I'll answer

[inspectorscout]

Well unless you think pie and I are both scum and our entire back and forth was theater (which would imply a level of acting ability that I've never displayed before in a mafia game ever), pie!scum means that I'm town, and you're not exactly someone I'm taking all that seriously after your push on me. Like, you get that, right? So if your current theory is that I'm wrong and pie is scum, you're going to actually have to put substantive effort into clarifying why that is the case and pushing that read, because right now I'm comfortable thinking pie is likely town and you're either scum or really bad town, and in either case I'm going to have precisely zero incentive to sheep you (and I'd think that ought to hold true for most people). So if you're town, start to put actual thought into what you're doing. or be satistfied just using signguy tags and hoping that people will eventually randomly sheep you.

Either you're scum, or pie. Not both, and not both of you are town. I'd bet on that.

I think my push on you was reasonable, at least more than your push 'omg no he questioned the IC'

I think I've put enough thought in this game, I gave reasons for why I think pie is scum and I'm not repeating them a billion times.
Everyone laughed away the S_S flip, even though I defended him all the time. "Omg u scum u knew he would flip town!!! Hurr durr!" Sure, whatever, but since you and most others seem to think that I'm town, why not consider that my reads maybe aren't THAT bad?

But no, scout is the VI, don't read his posts.

[pieguyn]

the major, major problem I'm having here is that after checking the game HS linked, and seeing Vedith actually manage to form a read that wasn't completely incomprehensible, I'm left facing the fact that the two people in this game who are certified at reading Jester are/were both adamant that he was town.

I'm aware that it's fairly usual for scum to try to tailor their play to the people who know how to read them best and that it's really hazardous to just accept someone else's town read on someone because "I can read them" - I have been that town player completely misreading scum and making everyone listen to me because "I can read them" - but at this point, ugh.

[mhsmith0]

Because it is not representative at all. Again, this is not based on my scumread on you, it's based on how parama would think as scum, yet HS mixes in her own reads.

How exactly do you think parama would think as scum in that spot? What about HS mixing in her own reads is unreasonable at that spot?

[mhsmith0]

Why can't scum!parama include 2 town-townpairs and 1 scum-townpair? What on earth makes you think that those are scum if parama is scum, but not mhsmith? If you believe she's double bussing, why can't she have just bussed mhsmith until now?

I am definitely not seeing your reasoning here. At the very least it's not sane.

Like, this doesn't really get at a specific read of what parama might be doing and why she might be doing it as scum, it's just a "well why might not parama be doing this other thing". You criticize HS for building her own reads into her analysis of what scum!parama might be doing, but you're doing the exact same thing wrt me, since there's no substance here for what exactly you expect scum!parama to be doing wrt me, just a repeat of your scumread of me rolled into your discussion of scum!parama.

[inspectorscout]

Because it is not representative at all. Again, this is not based on my scumread on you, it's based on how parama would think as scum, yet HS mixes in her own reads.

How exactly do you think parama would think as scum in that spot? What about HS mixing in her own reads is unreasonable at that spot?

I am not going to attempt at thinking how scum!parama busses/whiteknights/whatever BECAUSE I DONT KNOW WHO IS SCUM/TOWN

Sure, have fun doing so when you have a scumflip, but in what way does her reasoning make sense? Let's say kagami flips town
Bam.
Whole post useless.
It's empty, useless reasoning. Based on her reads? Yeah, because those are infallible. There is no progress in this game by saying it, looking active vs doing shit, you know the drill. Be honest, what did her making this post advance the gamestate/gave you a read on parama?

[inspectorscout]

Like, this doesn't really get at a specific read of what parama might be doing and why she might be doing it as scum, it's just a "well why might not parama be doing this other thing". You criticize HS for building her own reads into her analysis of what scum!parama might be doing, but you're doing the exact same thing wrt me, since there's no substance here for what exactly you expect scum!parama to be doing wrt me, just a repeat of your scumread of me rolled into your discussion of scum!parama.

False. I said this about you because you are the last one in that list, the person who, following HS, thinking as scum!parama, is the townie in the list. If dunn was the last one on the list, it's still fucking exactly the same thing, but with his name instead of yours. It isn't about my scumread on you, it's about why the third person on the list HAS TO BE TOWN in HS' scum!parama mindset. Here that person happens to be you.

[mhsmith0]

Because it is not representative at all. Again, this is not based on my scumread on you, it's based on how parama would think as scum, yet HS mixes in her own reads.

How exactly do you think parama would think as scum in that spot? What about HS mixing in her own reads is unreasonable at that spot?

I am not going to attempt at thinking how scum!parama busses/whiteknights/whatever BECAUSE I DONT KNOW WHO IS SCUM/TOWN

Sure, have fun doing so when you have a scumflip, but in what way does her reasoning make sense? Let's say kagami flips town
Bam.
Whole post useless.
It's empty, useless reasoning. Based on her reads? Yeah, because those are infallible. There is no progress in this game by saying it, looking active vs doing shit, you know the drill. Be honest, what did her making this post advance the gamestate/gave you a read on parama?

Except it's NOT empty, useless posting. It's considering what parama might be doing as scum, and what might be driving that post, and what that might mean about others. Let's say parama flips scum and kagami town. Then that means that the read was WRONG. What makes that read more wrong, and more useless, than the various other stuff floating around the game so far?

[Human Sequencer]

i didn't even build my reads in, i just worded it poorly and accidentally slipped in my read on smith
it's irrelevant who out of sad/kagami/smith is scum because she -has- to be double bussing with jester/mds as town

I fucking hate this game.

think of it as a challenge for us to overcome
a puzzle, if you will
this might help \o/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVcNPWhdrRw&

[Human Sequencer]

4240
lmao this guy
'scumhunting is useless and doesn't further the game!'

[inspectorscout]

Because it is not representative at all. Again, this is not based on my scumread on you, it's based on how parama would think as scum, yet HS mixes in her own reads.

How exactly do you think parama would think as scum in that spot? What about HS mixing in her own reads is unreasonable at that spot?

I am not going to attempt at thinking how scum!parama busses/whiteknights/whatever BECAUSE I DONT KNOW WHO IS SCUM/TOWN

Sure, have fun doing so when you have a scumflip, but in what way does her reasoning make sense? Let's say kagami flips town
Bam.
Whole post useless.
It's empty, useless reasoning. Based on her reads? Yeah, because those are infallible. There is no progress in this game by saying it, looking active vs doing shit, you know the drill. Be honest, what did her making this post advance the gamestate/gave you a read on parama?

Except it's NOT empty, useless posting. It's considering what parama might be doing as scum, and what might be driving that post, and what that might mean about others. Let's say parama flips scum and kagami town. Then that means that the read was WRONG. What makes that read more wrong, and more useless, than the various other stuff floating around the game so far?

Is saying "i think this person would do this as scum but only if these people are scum and I dont even know if they are" scumhunting? Saying "x is scum because y" is clear reasoning, saying what she said is just hypothetical. i can write a wall about what everyone could think as scum with someone, but that doesn't work. If, however, we have a scumflip, THEN it's useful to say "hey look here, this might be bussing"

this argument is getting again where our argument about me asking the IC something ended. Just saying.

[inspectorscout]

i didn't even build my reads in, i just worded it poorly and accidentally slipped in my read on smith
it's irrelevant who out of sad/kagami/smith is scum because she -has- to be double bussing with jester/mds as town

now that is something totally different.

4240
lmao this guy
'scumhunting is useless and doesn't further the game!'

read my fucking posts.

[pieguyn]

thing is if we go through with the Jester lynch and it's town, then we probably just lose.

so yes, it is reasonable to think about what might be going on here if they're town. there isn't any reason not to. if we can't find any scenario where they work as town and we've just been lined up to walk into our death by lynching them, then yes, they could easily just be scum, but I am nowhere near sure this is what is going on and I want to be absolutely sure I'm not missing anything before I proceed with the lynch, especially given how high-risk it is.

this is why I wish we had lynched Jester D1.

[inspectorscout]

thing is if we go through with the Jester lynch and it's town, then we probably just lose.

so yes, it is reasonable to think about what might be going on here if they're town. there isn't any reason not to. if we can't find any scenario where they work as town and we've just been lined up to walk into our death by lynching them, then yes, they could easily just be scum, but I am nowhere near sure this is what is going on and I want to be absolutely sure I'm not missing anything before I proceed with the lynch, especially given how high-risk it is.

this is why I wish we had lynched Jester D1.

Please
assuming all scum paired with town, we have more chance of lynching scum than not.
Hint: it's also in your pair.

[Human Sequencer]

@scout yeah might as well just roll the dice! L M A O