New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

[Dunnstral]

Scout what do you think of your partner? And Parama pair

[mhsmith0]

How can you describe a townie tone? It's there or it isn't.

Huh? What in the world is your understanding of "townie tone"? To me, townie tone can be things like:

- this person is super relaxed and free-flowing
- this person is arguing a point in a way that makes me think they're both emotionally and intellectually engaged in what they're doing
- this person has expressed through their posting emotions like suspicion, pride, paranoia etc, and that is consistent with what I'd expect from what they've been saying and doing if they were a villager
etc.

or to slice out another one of my IC points (quoting an exceptionally good tone-reader, and one of the very best players I've ever played with):

Spoiler: On engagement, effort, emotion and tone

Spiff was doing stuff that you just don't see wolves actually do -- claiming a PR with still 24 hours remaining on d1 and openly antagonizing the people pushing him the hardest, rather than just slink away and wait for a shiny object to appear that drags the votes away from him

…

Cron was working super hard at developing his reads and he had the proper emotional investment in what he was doing. I don't feel like pulling up his posts to cite specific examples, so let's just talk again about the Trundle thing. He soulreads a guy as a wolf based on one post and has four reasons for it, and he's super proud of himself and patting himself on the back for it. Wolves aren't trying that hard to develop quick reads and they tend to struggle to come up with that level of insight and they aren't good at getting the subtle emotions right. And his whole day was full of things like that. Cron has played several wolf games on this site and his posting was bland and forgettable each time.

…

I don't have time to adequately respond to that post but one thing I can say quickly is that when I'm talking about emotions, I'm specifically excluding anger. It's the easiest emotion to fake and it's one that is often not alignment-indicative even when it is genuine, unless it can be traced to an origin in something distinctly villagery.

Emotions like pride, paranoia, surprise, suspicion, etc, are more difficult to fake. Wolves often fail to even identify spots in which emotion should be present in their posting, and their efforts at actually displaying more complex emotions are often quite clumsy, for example by stating their supposed feelings rather than displaying them.

But in the case of Cron, a lot of what was clearing for him was just the sheer depth and breadth of his reads and interactions. It's just hard to fake that much content so quickly and make it sound good. And few wolves are ever going to stalk other players' online statuses in order to catch lurkers.

Smith Inserts the Relevant Cron Quotes

Well, here we go again. I'm glad there is not 100 pages in the first hour.

Based on post count alone and higher aggression, different tone in his lost, Emberguard is very likely town.

I agree with the ember read but your first post this game does not impress me like it did in Transformers.

If trundle flips mafia, consider ember town.

Cron, one little wolf tell I've picked up on over time is how a lot of them vote for a bro very early. It's long-game cover and anti-spew, but you'd be alarmed at how many wolves vote for a wolf as their very first action in any given game.

I think it's more likely that mafia just gave an easy read (ember acting very differently this game) as a spew than they're both mafia.

And yes I think trundle is mafia.

Cron, one little wolf tell I've picked up on over time is how a lot of them vote for a bro very early. It's long-game cover and anti-spew, but you'd be alarmed at how many wolves vote for a wolf as their very first action in any given game.

I think it's more likely that mafia just gave an easy read (ember acting very differently this game) as a spew than they're both mafia.

And yes I think trundle is mafia.

Off one post?

Yep. Get on my level.

Why trundle is mafia based on 1 post:

1. Relieved there isn't a flood of posts to read yet gives hardly any content.
2. Only gives an easy tone read on ember, easy to fake as mafia.
3. Content is very lacking compared to his town game in transformers
4. Still has yet to respond to me calling him mafia.

Why trundle is mafia based on 1 post:

1. Relieved there isn't a flood of posts to read yet gives hardly any content.
2. Only gives an easy tone read on ember, easy to fake as mafia.
3. Content is very lacking compared to his town game in transformers
4. Still has yet to respond to me calling him mafia.

Reasonable, but I disagree.
1. I'm in Computer Science and there are exams right now. I don't have time for an overly busy game like Transformers. I figured this one would be less busy simply do to what happened last game. This is why I am relieved. Also, do to the fact that there isn't all the much content yet, I did not have much to go off of, but I did give a read which is more than nearly anyone else had done so far.
2. Any town reading another town as town is easy to fake as mafia reading a town as town.
3. What content? It was my first post of the game and I was just checking in.
4. I was offline.

It seems to me that you're just reaction testing me because my post wasn't as long as it was last time. Also, I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, so just give me a second and if anyone else joined bandwagon I'll respond shortly.

I am reaction testing a bit, and you failed miserably.

You've been online in MU for 45 minutes, I saw on main page, so saying you were offline until now is a blatant lie.

Your demeanor is far too calm. Watching you post in dead chat on transformers and post game, the salt levels were off the charts. Yet now in a new game, you're completely mellow and not upset at all with the fact you are being pushed on my multiple people.

I think this post is very well thought out and carefully constructed, but there's no trace of emotion anywhere. You scrubbed your response to make it sound articulate, but you forgot to add any feeling.

Trundle should be a wagon today.

I don't know why you're doubling down on being offline. I saw you online for an extended period of time starting around 10:30 eastern. The reason I remember this is because I was waiting around for your response for 15 minutes and saw you still online during that time.

Ok great, my accusations are nonsense and distracting town. Do you have any other reads outside of ember?

I don't know why you're doubling down on being offline. I saw you online for an extended period of time starting around 10:30 eastern. The reason I remember this is because I was waiting around for your response for 15 minutes and saw you still online during that time.

Ok great, my accusations are nonsense and distracting town. Do you have any other reads outside of ember?

I think Alette's posting is very sketchy, but from last game I just think she always sounds like she is mafia. I have a feeling that most of the mafia have not posted much yet. 3 people have not posted yet, and 4 people are between 1-2 posts. I am very neutral on Revival.

So three mafia within 0-1 post count, 1 mafia higher post count?

I feel like you aren't trying to solve the game. Your reads are alette is scummy but she posts scummy so I dunno and revival is null. Why aren't you creating town lists in your head?

So when you say "townie tone" and then just dump off an empty "how can I describe it, it's there or it isn't", I have no idea at all what you're talking about. I almost think you're just saying that kagami was just saying a bunch of reasonable-sounding things without being weird about it (admittedly just a guess since you can't or won't explain your read), which is, just so you know, just about the easiest thing in the world for a wolf to fake.

If pie was really convinced you were scum, why wouldnt she leave when you were the one saying leaving is antitown?

This question doesn't make sense (possibly just because it was poorly worded). Let me try:

1) If pie was scum, why wouldn't she leave if she knew I was town and I'd said (possibly convincing her) that leaving was antitown
2) If pie was town thinking I was scum, why wouldn't she leave, given that I was saying it was anti-town?

The first is easy enough to answer, because it would presume that she could survive my pressure at least long enough to achieve another mislynch or two (correct in that hypothetical given that the day ended with shadow-maria dying).

The second would presume, I guess, that she thought that I, as scum, would be lying about theory? Or that she'd disagree with it? Given that one of the points I was practically screaming about was that if she really was town who believed I was scum, she should be voting me (and, fwiw, it absolutely seemed to me at the time like she was making excuses as to why she wasn't voting me [and if dunn is town, lol him forever for his "I bet smith is just trying to pretend to suspect pie here for the town credit" bit] ). So I guess the question is, what do you think of her discussion of what she was doing? Why do you feel it's non-credible? I've come to a read on her based on our back and forth, and am fairly comfortable that it's probably the correct one.

[inspectorscout]

Scout what do you think of your partner? And Parama pair

I have this interesting article for you
It's called my ISO
fun guaranteed.

[inspectorscout]

So when you say "townie tone" and then just dump off an empty "how can I describe it, it's there or it isn't", I have no idea at all what you're talking about. I almost think you're just saying that kagami was just saying a bunch of reasonable-sounding things without being weird about it (admittedly just a guess since you can't or won't explain your read), which is, just so you know, just about the easiest thing in the world for a wolf to fake.

I can't explain tone, just like I can't explain gut. It doesn't have anything to do with the content, it's something else. If you have a problem with that, too bad. I don't care.

1) If pie was scum, why wouldn't she leave if she knew I was town and I'd said (possibly convincing her) that leaving was antitown
2) If pie was town thinking I was scum, why wouldn't she leave, given that I was saying it was anti-town?

Are you asking questions to look busy or something? The more questions you ask, the less they make sense.
1) she wouldn't leave because it's inherently against her wincon.
2) that's exactly the point made by kagami.

[pieguyn]

vote: Parama/HS (L-1)

I'm nervous.

[pieguyn]

I really do not think I should keep being paranoid of you here but jesus fuck, I can't help it because pairing with a partner (and doing literally anything but what me/mhsmith did here) is probably exactly what I'd do in this setup.

I'm pretty confident that scum-scum pairing is optimal in a Large Dance unless it would be awkward to engineer, or there's someone in the list who you are confident would correctly scumread you.

this makes me happy to see, mostly just because I felt the same way soon after I first saw the large dance setup and now I know for sure that I haven't just been completely crazy to think it was optimal this whole time.

[mhsmith0]

So when you say "townie tone" and then just dump off an empty "how can I describe it, it's there or it isn't", I have no idea at all what you're talking about. I almost think you're just saying that kagami was just saying a bunch of reasonable-sounding things without being weird about it (admittedly just a guess since you can't or won't explain your read), which is, just so you know, just about the easiest thing in the world for a wolf to fake.

I can't explain tone, just like I can't explain gut. It doesn't have anything to do with the content, it's something else. If you have a problem with that, too bad. I don't care.

1) If pie was scum, why wouldn't she leave if she knew I was town and I'd said (possibly convincing her) that leaving was antitown
2) If pie was town thinking I was scum, why wouldn't she leave, given that I was saying it was anti-town?

Are you asking questions to look busy or something? The more questions you ask, the less they make sense.
1) she wouldn't leave because it's inherently against her wincon.
2) that's exactly the point made by kagami.

wrt tone, you can't point to specific posts that substantiate your tone read, and you can't actually even talk through what you mean, and you seem to have zero motivation to try. So when a while back ago I called you scum or intellectually lazy town, guess what, it looks like I was right. If you want to be taken seriously, try thinking through what you mean and why you're saying it. I get that this is hard, but this isn't your first rodeo and you shouldn't be struggling to explain what you mean about something relatively straightforward like this. Of course that only applies if you're town; I guess if you're scum keep doing it since it's apparently working.

Also, are you just skimming my posts? Because I clarified what I thought your questions MIGHT mean, and then actually answered them from either interpretation. Like, this is really really obviously what just happened. Why aren't you actually looking at what I said?

[pieguyn]

actually never mind, I skimmed over Parama's post where they said they'd do stuff tonight so I'll wait.

unvote:

[inspectorscout]

So when you say "townie tone" and then just dump off an empty "how can I describe it, it's there or it isn't", I have no idea at all what you're talking about. I almost think you're just saying that kagami was just saying a bunch of reasonable-sounding things without being weird about it (admittedly just a guess since you can't or won't explain your read), which is, just so you know, just about the easiest thing in the world for a wolf to fake.

I can't explain tone, just like I can't explain gut. It doesn't have anything to do with the content, it's something else. If you have a problem with that, too bad. I don't care.

1) If pie was scum, why wouldn't she leave if she knew I was town and I'd said (possibly convincing her) that leaving was antitown
2) If pie was town thinking I was scum, why wouldn't she leave, given that I was saying it was anti-town?

Are you asking questions to look busy or something? The more questions you ask, the less they make sense.
1) she wouldn't leave because it's inherently against her wincon.
2) that's exactly the point made by kagami.

wrt tone, you can't point to specific posts that substantiate your tone read, and you can't actually even talk through what you mean, and you seem to have zero motivation to try. So when a while back ago I called you scum or intellectually lazy town, guess what, it looks like I was right. If you want to be taken seriously, try thinking through what you mean and why you're saying it. I get that this is hard, but this isn't your first rodeo and you shouldn't be struggling to explain what you mean about something relatively straightforward like this. Of course that only applies if you're town; I guess if you're scum keep doing it since it's apparently working.

Also, are you just skimming my posts? Because I clarified what I thought your questions MIGHT mean, and then actually answered them from either interpretation. Like, this is really really obviously what just happened. Why aren't you actually looking at what I said?

I said what I have to say about tone. If you can't live withit, feel free to ignore it. I know what I'm saying, why I'm saying it. I just can't explain it. Explain gut? It's like that for me. I also don't think I have a responsibility to clarify things I can't clarify, especially not to people that I want dead.

If you ask me a question, please do so clearly. I lose interest in walls with a bunch of rethorical questions pretty fast.

[pieguyn]

hang on a second.

does Dunn/Jester/SAD make sense? I think Kagami suggested this earlier but ugh I need to look at it again because if mhsmith is town and HS/Parama is town then the HS/Parama lynch is a game throw.

[inspectorscout]

*sigh*

[mhsmith0]

I said what I have to say about tone. If you can't live withit, feel free to ignore it. I know what I'm saying, why I'm saying it. I just can't explain it. Explain gut? It's like that for me. I also don't think I have a responsibility to clarify things I can't clarify, especially not to people that I want dead.

If you ask me a question, please do so clearly. I lose interest in walls with a bunch of rethorical questions pretty fast.

Well your reason for TRing kagami is really shitty if you can't even be bothered to try and understand and explain it. "It's just gut" - what a perfect way to say something that no one can engage with in any kind of substantive or useful manner.

And lo and behold, I lose interest with people who can't be bothered to read what I actually have to say pretty fast, especially when they twist it into "lol smith asking dumb questions". Especially since a few paragraph response is hardly what I'd consider a wall.

[Kagami]

I don't think jester really makes sense with Dunn, if for no other reason than Jester's choice of putting me as a scumread and dunn as a townread in his readslist.

[Kagami]

Dunn-SAD-scout was one of the exotic sets I was thinking about, but that seems unlikely.

[inspectorscout]

I said what I have to say about tone. If you can't live withit, feel free to ignore it. I know what I'm saying, why I'm saying it. I just can't explain it. Explain gut? It's like that for me. I also don't think I have a responsibility to clarify things I can't clarify, especially not to people that I want dead.

If you ask me a question, please do so clearly. I lose interest in walls with a bunch of rethorical questions pretty fast.

Well your reason for TRing kagami is really shitty if you can't even be bothered to try and understand and explain it. "It's just gut" - what a perfect way to say something that no one can engage with in any kind of substantive or useful manner.

And lo and behold, I lose interest with people who can't be bothered to read what I actually have to say pretty fast, especially when they twist it into "lol smith asking dumb questions". Especially since a few paragraph response is hardly what I'd consider a wall.

Although I said more than just tone?

Okay, you wrote a paragraph. You asked quite a few questions. Which ones are important for me to answer?

Also note that I will sleep now, so you won't get a reply within 3 minutes.

[mhsmith0]

PS Lessons in Tone Reading for Dummies:

Smith just made a few posts that shows he's gotten frustrated with scout's continued refusal to be transparent or useful. This is:

1) Because Smith is town and is actually frustrated with scout
2) Because Smith is a wolf and is simply trying to imitate what he'd do as town (which would probably come across as fake somehow btw)
3) Because Smith is a wolf and is fake interacting with his teammate
4) Because Smith is a wolf and some other explanation

One of these answers is correct. Most of you won't know for sure until after I'd flip, but the answer is actually obvious. Unless you think I'm really good at faking villagery tone as a wolf (which is news to anyone who's seen me wolf). Note how that is an ACTUAL substantiated tone read, explained and everything (blah blah blah wifom self defense blah blah blah). Amazing how that actually works.

[Dunnstral]

1) Because Smith is town and is actually frustrated with scout
2) Because Smith is a wolf and is simply trying to imitate what he'd do as town (which would probably come across as fake somehow btw)
3) Because Smith is a wolf and is fake interacting with his teammate
4) Because Smith is a wolf and some other explanation

One of these answers is correct.

75% I like my odds

[inspectorscout]

But frustration is something different from tone, imo.
Frustration and anger can be easily faked. Genuineness not.

[mhsmith0]

Although I said more than just tone?

Okay, you wrote a paragraph. You asked quite a few questions. Which ones are important for me to answer?

Also note that I will sleep now, so you won't get a reply within 3 minutes.

Acutally in 4501 I asked ONE question. For you to substantiate your tonal read (I suppose I also asked you to substantiate in general what you think townie tone is, although that's mainly a sub-question). The two listed "questions" (#s 1 and 2) were very obviously rhetorical questions designed to substantiate my response to your (poorly worded) question. they weren't looking for answers from you, they were themselves part of an answer TO YOU.

PS in 4506 I asked why you weren't reading what I said to which you basically responded "because I'm lazy". So you don't need to answer that one again.

[mhsmith0]

But frustration is something different from tone, imo.
Frustration and anger can be easily faked. Genuineness not.

Anger is easy to fake. Frustration less so but it's doable. And tone is emotion, that's kind of the whole point. Anger, surprise, arrogance, frustration, paranoia, those are all emotions that come through as part of tone. If you want to tonal read someone, read their emotions, see if what they're feeling is consistent with what they ought to be feeling in a situation as a villager.

"Genuineness" on the other hand - now that's more of a buzzword than anything substantiated. Genuine what exactly? Genuine belief in the case being pushed? Genuine confidence in being correct? Genuine nervousness about being wrong? "Genuine" can mean all sorts of things, "genuine" without any explanation or clarify is itself empty.

[mhsmith0]

1) Because Smith is town and is actually frustrated with scout
2) Because Smith is a wolf and is simply trying to imitate what he'd do as town (which would probably come across as fake somehow btw)
3) Because Smith is a wolf and is fake interacting with his teammate
4) Because Smith is a wolf and some other explanation

One of these answers is correct.

75% I like my odds

Shit posting instead of actually dealing with the substance of the post. Congratulations: if you're town you are consciously choosing to be a burden to your team. Good work.

[pieguyn]

Unless you think I'm really good at faking villagery tone as a wolf (which is news to anyone who's seen me wolf).

yeah OK so since you brought this up I want to talk about this.

a lot of the reason I just don't see mhsmith as scum here is that from what I've seen of him, he's on record as a player who doesn't like playing scum and used to think his scum game was abysmal and that it was something that he needed to improve upon. as someone who is basically the same in terms of just not liking playing as scum, I was in this exact spot like 2 years ago and I know just how hard it actually is for someone who just can't put their heart into scum games to keep their engagement up and actively stay invested in the game and (most importantly) fake the emotional state that they usually get into when they're town. I've improved my scum game a lot since then and I've gotten better at faking engagement, but I'm still just never fully "there" when I'm scum and mhsmith definitely seems "here" this game. the interaction with me D1, he seemed "here", his play this game day he seems much more "here" than his play early D1 which initially caused me to suspect him.

so like... yeah, maybe he just played a really good scum game, but do I feel any confidence getting him unless it's like Parama is scum and it's our pair vs. SAD's pair at a 4p endgame? not really.

I'm just terrified.

[inspectorscout]

The second would presume, I guess, that she thought that I, as scum, would be lying about theory? Or that she'd disagree with it?
...
.So I guess the question is, what do you think of her discussion of what she was doing? Why do you feel it's non-credible?

4 questions.
The first: not a real question.
Second: not a real question.
Third: answered this before, multiple times.
Fourth: see above.

Ask again.

[Kagami]

Let's imagine dunn is scum, scout is scum, kagami is town. Who do you think is most likely to be scummo #3?

[inspectorscout]

But frustration is something different from tone, imo.
Frustration and anger can be easily faked. Genuineness not.

Anger is easy to fake. Frustration less so but it's doable. And tone is emotion, that's kind of the whole point. Anger, surprise, arrogance, frustration, paranoia, those are all emotions that come through as part of tone. If you want to tonal read someone, read their emotions, see if what they're feeling is consistent with what they ought to be feeling in a situation as a villager.

"Genuineness" on the other hand - now that's more of a buzzword than anything substantiated. Genuine what exactly? Genuine belief in the case being pushed? Genuine confidence in being correct? Genuine nervousness about being wrong? "Genuine" can mean all sorts of things, "genuine" without any explanation or clarify is itself empty.

Frustration is a shade of anger. It's not hard to fake - just get into pointless arguments and it comes for free. Like these.

Genuineness = believing in what you are doing
It's hard to put under words how exactly you can see that, which is what I'm telling you.