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Post Post #150 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:23 pm

Post by mastin2 »

The problem with the mindset of "lol just get better at being town its not that hard pshah", is that those who take that mindset are
massively
underestimating--and I do mean MASSIVELY underestimating--the sheer natural, inherent advantage scum hold in a game just by having the abilities scum naturally do.

In meatworld games, scum are ridiculously easy to spot--even the players with the absolute best poker faces have tells which become easy to spot, not even keeping in mind that said players can, in a live environment, easily slip up when put on the spot. In a live, real-time environment, where you can actually see each other, the mafia are under a lot of pressure, so the game is hard on them.

In most mafia cultures, the game is placed on an accelerated time scale. On EpicMafia for instance, there's still the live, real-time environment, and so, scum are forced to think on the spot, make split-second decisions, and make posts rapidly. That is still an environment which is hard for scum, because if they make an incorrect move, they're dead, and potentially their whole faction will follow.

In games using a Blitz timeframe, where days are 24-72 hours long and nights are 24-48 hours long, the scum have it
slightly
easier, but are still going to face pressure: they only get one or two chances per day phase to post. That means that by the time they are online to post, they may have an insurmountable wagon formed on them. Or, an insurmountable wagon on town...and their interactions in regard to said insurmountable wagon (regardless of the wagonee's alignment) exposes them for future day phases.

In other words, mafia still must make split-second decisions, which face real consequences.

...On mafiascum, however...the mafia have the edge. For a start, they have the natural advantage of distance that computers, that online playing, provides: you cannot see, you cannot hear, the mafia. This is true of all online mafia, of course. And is one reason why mafia in the above games still win a decent amount of times--you can only guess at the tone behind a post. You can only guess at the emotions a player is experiencing. You can only guess what they are saying means. So the natural psychology is much harder to pick up on. (I mean, I've gotten good at it, but most players, especially those new to the game, haven't a clue how to.)

Then, and this is the MOST deadly part, you add in the benefit of time. Mafiascum is one of the ONLY sites in existence where the days last for weeks--as a result, the scum can take their time crafting each and every post they make, fine-tailoring it to remove the mistakes they would make in a faster-paced environment. They have time to scrutinize the thread, picking up on PR tells. They have time to scrutinize the game and figure out what NOT to say. They have time to figure out what they need to say in order to not stick out.

They have time to manipulate their tone. They have time to prepare each and every post of theirs to perfection. They have time. Time is their weapon. Not the town's. Time, this extended time, allows for them to fine-craft scenarios in which they don't need to do much of anything. They don't need to scumhunt. They are allowed to simply sit back and let time make towns forget about them.

This is particularly deadly when paired with the other natural advantage scum have: as the informed minority, the scum have the advantage of information. Players MASSIVELY underestimate just how fucking important this advantage is. A scumteam knows who is town and who is scum. A scumteam, knowing their own PRs, knows what claims from the town are true or not, and also knows as a result what to expect. A scumteam, knowing what they know about the game, has an idea of the setup before the town could ever possibly hope to know. A scumteam, knowing who the other scum are, and working as a team, can coordinate what to do: with the benefit of daytalk, they know exactly how and when they can create a fabricated interaction between one another which looks organic. Knowing who the scum are, and by paying attention to timing, they know exactly when to bus one another and have it look good.

And, knowing who the scum are, they know exactly who and when
not
to bus, and can let the town eat each other alive simply by not doing so. (Most scum lynches, we're talking like 9/10 here, have at least one scumbuddy bussing, because it's virtually impossible to get a lynch through on scum and have it be all town. It's definitely probable to find both scum on a scum wagon even, especially on a D1 scum lynch, because lynching scum when the town is at full divisive force and lacks information from roles and lacks information from flips is nearly impossible unless the scum deliberately let them do so.)

Are those advantages perfect? Fuck no, you need to learn how to use them.
Are those advantages foolproof? Fuck no, they'll always have gaps--but you need time and experience to learn how to see, to find, them.

And most players in Normals are newbies to mafiascum. Maybe they have experience elsewhere. Most probably do, in fact. Yet the vast majority of them are inexperienced at understanding these natural tools scum hold. So telling town to get better is literally impossible. How do you explain to the town all of these facts at once? How do you teach them that scum hold this powerful advantage, and that they basically need scum in order to lynch scum?

Furthermore. How do you warn them that every player needs to be playing in top-form in order to thwart the scum's fundamental weapon? The scum hold a nightkill--the reason so many mountainous games tip towards scum is that the moment scum kill off the most competent town players, the players remaining lack coherency and eat each other up. Attempts have been made to stack the town up to counter this...yet inherent in that was a flaw, because stacking a playerlist with good players created a
scumteam
which was competent as well so the competent scumteam killed the most competent town and the remaining town while certainly competent in their own right were unable to gain coherency and lynched each other to death.

And then there's the basic problem: the game is not static. It evolves. Even if you are experienced enough to know these things! The scum grow at the same rate a town does. So as the town catches onto the scum's old tricks, the scum invent new tricks. And thus, the town players who fought so hard to become competent in doing a particular style of analysis are forced to start over from scratch when time and time again their older style proves fruitless because the scum changed their game.

So it ABSOLUTELY is hard, no, absolutely is impossible, to "just get better". The town holds so many weaknesses in a game. They know none of the scum. They do not know who their allies are. They are under fire, and most town players have egos. It's almost impossible to see all these players attacking you and think, "maybe I've done something wrong". And if you analyze yourself and conclude with careful thought, "no, I'm pretty sure I'm not at fault here", it's nearly impossible to sort out the nature of the attacks on you: who is town that is misguided? Who is scum making an argument they know to be town? The two aren't identical, sure, but discerning which is which is incredibly difficult. And even if you DO manage that! Even if you correctly finger the scum attacking you...then you have to deal with accusations of OMGUS, and must explain how your attack is not OMGUS, which most players find hard to accept because most players don't understand what OMGUS actually means anymore.

Even if you don't have to deal with attacks. You have to face the fact that your reads are, statistically speaking, more likely to be wrong than right. Most players have trouble coping with this. (Especially if they've got a strong ego.) Most town players don't understand that they need to carefully consider the odds.

Even if all of this is addressed! Most town players don't know how to keep their focus. They get distracted. They think focus = tunneling. So, either they tunnel thinking that it's synonymous with staying on target, or they refuse to stay on target because they want to avoid tunneling. When in truth, both are wrong because focus is not synonymous with tunneling; they are two different concepts entirely. Most players can't grasp that. They will have something, and then lock onto that something in ignorance of everything else (tunneling), or they will have something, but discard it in favor of the newest something (distractions).

But let's say. For the sake of argument. You get a player. They know how to make themselves look town. They know what to focus on. They know how to avoid confirmation bias. Then they need to convince others! And then! Then they need to consistently be right, and even the few players who fall into this category cannot be right 100% of the time.

And even if they were! Even if you get this magical, mythical figure of a town player. Who is always town. Who is always right. Who always knows what to look at. Who is able to convince others that they are right.

...Well that's one player, easily removed via nightkill, out of ten.
And once they are gone, their voice is lost. They are unable to give updates off of new information. So the town moves on, and will now lack the guidance of their legendary leader. So the town will make mistakes, because this mythical player was their best player, and now their best player is gone so all the town's play from that point onward is going to be inferior to their play prior to that player's death.

If it's that hard to get ONE player who fits the golden standard...and the removal of that player is easy...
...Well, just think about how hard it is to get TEN of them. Or for that matter, five! (Five would be enough.)

It's quite literally impossible.

Thus, there will never be a town game where just "getting better at the game" will allow the town to win.

Power roles aren't a crutch.
Power roles aren't there because we're weaker than what we could be.
Power roles are there because we're (almost) as good as we can be,
and our best isn't good enough
.

So power roles serve as a countermeasure to the scum's inherent advantage in the game. They should not be relied upon, yes, that is true. They are, however, a necessity, to give some sort of method for the town to counter the scum with anything resembling effectiveness.
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Post Post #151 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:35 pm

Post by mastin2 »

^Of course, this all said: just because it's impossible to "get better" at the game doesn't mean you should stop trying. Quite the opposite. If you don't attempt to perfect your play (even though perfecting your play is impossible), you become a trash-tier player. I guarantee you, even just an attempt to actively better your game will get you at minimum mediocre-player status. And that's at absolute worst! At absolute worst, trying will make you mediocre. At best, trying will elevate you to the "god-tiered" scumhunting level. Those players aren't 100% accurate. But they have renown all the same because they kept trying to get better, and they succeeded.

By not trying, AT BEST you'll be mediocre because no way in fuck are you going to be finding scum by staying exactly the way you are in each game. You become a wildcard who basically is a living breathing random number generator in regards to your effect on the game: usually detrimental, but occasionally of use. So trying to improve, trying to get better, is absolutely essential.

In other words, while the quest is ultimately futile and you can never ever truly "get better", you'll do much better by embarking on that quest than you will by refusing to try. Because the effort going into improving allows you to see, to catch, things you never would have bothered to think of before you tried to evolve your play to the next level.

The lesson here is more or less that you need to try to get better, even though there will never be a way to reach perfection. You will always need the help of other town players. You will always have gaps in your defenses. (Rather, gaps in your offense.) You will always be flawed, because you are human. Yet it's not the destination which matters--it's the journey. The destination is perfection, the journey is the attempt to reach there. And your struggles to reach the impossible will get you closer to it than those who stay put.
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Post Post #152 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:37 pm

Post by mastin2 »

(God I miss lecturing people on mafia theory like this.)
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Post Post #153 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:56 pm

Post by rb »

your example kind of falls down when you consider that lots of towns on particular sites actually have good town winrates without games having lots of PRs

i feel bad that all those words don't have meaning in light of that simple observation but it is what it are
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Post Post #154 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:58 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

FWIW, I'd say that you actually CAN get better! There may be something of an upper limit, but virtually every player out there can improve from where they are. A lot of it involves critically analyzing yourself when you lose (especially when you get mislynched or endgamed - if you get shot N1 by scum and lose, especially if you lynched scum D1, and especially if you did it as a VT, well, probably there isn't THAT much to learn from the game), but essentially it's a will to improve. If you want to improve, you will! And if you don't, well, you probably won't.

I'd agree that scum tend to evolve their gameplay over time and learn new tricks, but I'd also say that a lot of these "tricks" involve more manipulable things like how much they bus, how much they lurk, how hard they do or don't push the people pushing them, etc. vs more fundamental things like being able to pretend to be genuinely interested in solving the game's puzzle, being obvtown (very hard to do as scum), etc.

And perhaps the most important thing of all is, fake scum-hunting is really hard! In a board where all the town is invested in game-solving, communicating, and trying to understand each other, fake efforts by scum stand out much more. When no townies are being lazy, getting into needless fights, seizing upon easy "slips" as if they actually meant anything (and they usually don't), over-posting (I do this too often fwiw), lurking, active lurking, etc, then it's just fundamentally difficult for scum to blend in, and towns will do much better.
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Post Post #155 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:59 pm

Post by rb »

mastin wrote:Thus, there will never be a town game where just "getting better at the game" will allow the town to win.
considering that there's setups like 1-cop, 9VT vs. 3 goons with winrates of like 49% for town on some sites (2plus2 forums for e.g) over like 400+ games - I'm preeeeeety fucking sure that the sorts of towns you see on mafiascum are nowhere near necessary.

im not saying all games should be mountainous or that we should aim to make everyone good at mountainous games - but there's no need for 5 PRS in a "Normal" game like...ever.
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Post Post #156 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:00 pm

Post by JaeReed »

In post 150, mastin2 wrote:or they will have something, but discard it in favor of the newest something (distractions).
me :(
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Post Post #157 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:00 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 153, rb wrote:your example kind of falls down when you consider that lots of towns on particular sites actually have good town winrates without games having lots of PRs

i feel bad that all those words don't have meaning in light of that simple observation but it is what it are
the overall quality of town play on MS is lower than it is on some other sites. Some of that is I think due to the large community and constant cycling of newbies (smaller sites tend to have players more familiar with each other and thus are better at reading each other, and fewer newbies = fewer people who are clueless, lynchbait, or have various other pronounced flaws), but it's possible there's more to it than just that. Not really sure what it is tho.
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Post Post #158 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:03 pm

Post by rb »

In post 157, mhsmith0 wrote:
In post 153, rb wrote:your example kind of falls down when you consider that lots of towns on particular sites actually have good town winrates without games having lots of PRs

i feel bad that all those words don't have meaning in light of that simple observation but it is what it are
the overall quality of town play on MS is lower than it is on some other sites. Some of that is I think due to the large community and constant cycling of newbies (smaller sites tend to have players more familiar with each other and thus are better at reading each other, and fewer newbies = fewer people who are clueless, lynchbait, or have various other pronounced flaws), but it's possible there's more to it than just that. Not really sure what it is tho.
well when people keep on insisting that scum have a natural advantage that requires balancing, it doesn't surprise me :DDDDDDDD

self-fulfilling prophecy type thing
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Post Post #159 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:16 pm

Post by mastin2 »

If you're curious as to what I'd recommend for town trying to improve themselves, a few universal tips that won't change regardless of game or site meta:

-When you come under fire, the only way to react is to address the concern, but to try and redirect the attention elsewhere. You cannot waste time defending yourself. You cannot leave their concerns unaddressed. You cannot deflect the accusations to a different subject. Use simple, basic empathy, and explain your position clearly. (This is a basic Listen First skill, by the way--if you've had job training on the subject, you know this advice already and it's applicable online just as in real life.) "I understand how you feel that way, but I am not scum. I feel that playername is scum, and they might actually fit that description better. Aside from that, I also have my own reasons."

-When scumhunting, focus not on what has been done. Focus on
why
it was done. For instance, rb claimed bulletproof, but made no attempt to save himself. This should have been a sign he was fishing for roles, and that his scumbuddies expected him to die. As a result, bussing would be common. When Transcend counterclaimed, this was made even more abundantly clear: rb made no effort to persuade people he was town. The conclusion would thus be that he was doomed to die, because he had achieved his objective. As a result, you can conclude the following--
*Those that defended rb were misguided town who lacked this information
*Those who never stopped attacking rb might have reason to have known what he was up to, ergo, bussing. (Not that this is a perfect strategy; among other players, Transcend had reason to for instance.)
Furthermore, this applies to why a player would claim as well. LUV claimed without provocation. LUV claimed under zero pressure, and claimed a result LUV was under the impression would clear another player (Shannon) in all likelihood. What was the motivation here? As scum, there would have been none. Any explanation required contrived, convoluted violations of occam's razor, whereas the explanation for LUV as town was simply LUV thought that Shannon was cleared so claimed a result clearing her. When LUV later altered the claim, you also have to keep in mind motivation. What is the scum motivation for lying? The act causes nothing but suspicion, drawing attention to LUV. What's the town motivation? LUV wanted to lie in order to deceive the scum. In conclusion, LUV as town.

-Use occam's razor in conjunction with motive. It's really not that hard. The simplest explanation is the best one. The explanation for LUV being scum for instance was something akin to "LUV claimed a result that wouldn't clear anyone, with a role that was a nonfactor, on the hope this would lend towncred to cruise through the game, and when called out on it, changed their claim to something that would remain useful just so that we wouldn't lynch LUV". The explanation for LUV being town? "LUV claimed a useful result, and lied to bait the scum. When Titus came under pressure because of the fakeclaim, LUV came clean".
Now, both of these are the simplest form of the argument for each alignment. I'd say the latter is simpler, but even if not...one of these makes more sense motive-wise. LUV, as town, as the uninformed majority, has reason to be doubtful. LUV, as scum, has reason after rb's death to be careful. So fakeclaiming a 1x role, after rb doing so the day before led to rb's death, makes less sense.

-Apply the standard "innocent until proven guilty" along-size a healthy dosage of hanlon's razor (towns are, inherently...dumb). There are more town than scum. You are more likely to be wrong about someone being scum than you are to be right. So use a healthy amount of skepticism towards your scumreads' accuracy. Furthermore, keep in mind a golden standard: you should have AT ABSOLUTE MOST double the scumteam's probable size in your scumreads. If two scum alive, you canNOT have more than four scumreads. Ideally, you want it at 1.5 the number of scum, so with two scum alive three suspects is best. The second half of that same golden standard is that you SHOULD have double the scum's numbers AT MINIMUM in your
townreads
. So if you don't have at least four townreads with two scum left, you're doing it wrong.

In short, townhunting is arguably more valuable than scumhunting, as correctly fingering enough players as town can end the game for the scum.

-If following the above well, you should be in a position where you are townread and you have reasonably strong reads you want people to follow. Now comes the hard part: convincing others you are correct. For that, apply much the same logic as you would if you were under fire. Empathize with the viewpoint of those you are trying to convince, and try to get them to see things your way. "I realize you see this, but I think this is what happened, and this is why. You might have a point about this thing, but I don't think it's applicable to playername as you think; it's probably
playername2
instead." Appeal to their reasons. Appeal to their logic. You have to get into their minds and say what they want said, in a way that makes them think you could be correct.

These are just some quickies. Not an all-inclusive guide. There's more I could say, and these tips won't work 100% of the time. You can't win every battle. But these'll help at the very least.
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Post Post #160 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:19 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 153, rb wrote:your example kind of falls down when you consider that lots of towns on particular sites actually have good town winrates without games having lots of PRs
Yeah that's pretty false especially when you consider that other sites have combinations like seer-guardian (cop-doctor) with no scum roleblocker in the mix...and
the town can still lose those games
.

Keep in mind I actually play on many other sites.

Mafiascum may be my main home. It's not my only one. I know how mafia games on other sites work, and they are even heavier on power roles than mafiascum is. Not lighter. HEAVIER. There's a fucking reason that so many ICs feel the need to emphasize: "Hey, on that other site you're from the focus may have been on nightplay with power roles, but here on mafiascum, the focus is on dayplay."

If you think other sites have less PRs than mafiascum, then I don't really have a response other than...lolno?
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Post Post #161 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:22 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

I think it's more of a level of play thing. Like, town just lynched an important PR (2-shot follower), mainly because said PR decided to lie about his role (I've only skimmed the game, maybe there's more than that). And today another PR decided that a "no result" (almost always a roleblock of some sort) was indicative that her target was guilty, despite having not announced her target ahead of time, which means either she randomly hit or ascetic scum (or hit a rolestop which is highly unusual in a normal game), or she was simply roleblocked after announcing yesterday that she was a PR. The roleblock was always more likely, which means that the non-result was non-indicative, and yet it's being treated as it's meaningful, which is basically just conf!bias instead of scum-hunting.

Personally, I suspect that a lot of it comes from how newbie games are handled in Road to Rome. Essentially, IC's post a little bit about super basic theory stuff, and then people are more or less left to figure it out (or not) on their own. And so you get a newbie game where something like 2-6 players (depending on how "new" the newbies actually are, and whether it's 6/2/1 or 5/3/1, and for that matter sometimes some of the SE's really don't know what they're doing either) are just newbies who are more or less clueless, and then you get the fairly predictable result of scum doing very well in setups that SHOULD be town-sided, with occasional instances of newbscum teams just getting wrecked by more experienced players.

I don't really know how to improve that process though. Like, as IC, I gave people a shit-ton of TLDR stuff when I popped in, and tried to give useful post-game commentary, which I feel like was actually somewhat helpful, but "IC's should actively do more" probably isn't a very enforceable standard, and I'm really not sure what would be better. Maybe mods as part of the opening posts standardize a theory/process section that all newbies read and/or draw their attention to it? idk if that's actually helpful, but I feel like "just learn by doing" isn't something that is going to be particularly helpful for most people. I remember doing very poorly in a few games early in my career, and basically being like "I really want to improve but have no actual clue what to do to improve or what I should be learning", and actively went around asking people for advice, and somehow I feel like that's not really a process to more or less demand of people who don't want to just use trial and error or improvement by osmosis.
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Post Post #162 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:27 pm

Post by JaeReed »

In post 159, mastin2 wrote:Furthermore, this applies to why a player would claim as well. LUV claimed without provocation. LUV claimed under zero pressure, and claimed a result LUV was under the impression would clear another player (Shannon) in all likelihood. What was the motivation here? As scum, there would have been none. Any explanation required contrived, convoluted violations of occam's razor, whereas the explanation for LUV as town was simply LUV thought that Shannon was cleared so claimed a result clearing her. When LUV later altered the claim, you also have to keep in mind motivation. What is the scum motivation for lying? The act causes nothing but suspicion, drawing attention to LUV. What's the town motivation? LUV wanted to lie in order to deceive the scum. In conclusion, LUV as town.
+++

However, the lie was still anti-town.

Anti-town does not always equal scum, though. I'm just quickly sliding into a "this is a policy lynch from me if I ever see you do it again" state with a lot of players. You can tell them after the game that what they did really did not help town at all, but people rarely learn from words alone.

Which probably indicates I should take a break from playing if I'm valuing teaching people through policy lynches over actually winning the game because it's no longer going to be playing to win con.
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Post Post #163 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:31 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Like.
Maybe one or two sites do.
Okay. Good for them. They have less PRs than mafiascum does, great.

They are in the VAST minority.

I've played on something close to fifty game sites.
Literally every single one had more PRs than we do on mafiascum.
And also far less variety for that matter. Of those fifty or so, only about five have games that are SIGNIFICANTLY different from moderator to moderator. (Or, host to host, the more common term is.)

If you think that mafiascum is bad on power roles, I advise you ask around. Search around. Google for mafia sites. Ask players where they came from, you get a ton of responses over time. Play in site crossovers like I have, where every player is from a different website, and check out the websites they come from.

I can tell you with absolute confidence, having DONE exactly that.

Mafiascum is practically VANILLA in comparison to the vast majority of other mafia-hosting websites.
And most of the exceptions?
Most of the websites where players have comparable numbers of PRs?
...Had crossover from mafiascum. (That being, players from mafiascum helped found their mafia, or in the case of GreyLabyrinth, players from there helped found mafiascum. Quite literally. What, with mith having been the first person to have performed mafia online, and him being the person who moved it to mafiascum.)

Kid you not, most sites with lower PR numbers in mafia are sites which are heavy with mafiascum users, both ways. (Users played there first, users moved there from mafiascum, about in equal numbers.) And there's damn good reason for that. Ask around. You'll be utterly surprised. (Me? Not so much because this is my worldview on mafia
after
having done exactly that.)
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Post Post #164 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:41 pm

Post by Lil Uzi Vert »

mastin hit it right on the head. I don't understand how people thought I was scum after that but I think it's because people psyche themselves out and make the game more complicated.

In my experience, a lot of what matsin is saying is so true. Ever since the first time I rolled scum, I know how easy it is to win as that alignment. Town fight with town and scum read each other for the most ridiculous things and it's so easy to just sit back or edge it on while still being town read. Hardest part for me as scum is keeping up with the lies and faking the same tone throughout the game but I've gotten a few tips to help with that. As town it's a lot harder because you have to actually play while as scum, all you have just to pretend to.

As for my play, I think I struggle with three things. My play style, convincing people, and voting.

A lot of people say I have an awkward play style and I just don't see it. Trying to emulate others play styles haven't worked for me but slowly adding things to my play style or trying out things I have read have helped but I still get the awkward thing. I usually get scum read for this a lot but I've gotten better at avoiding getting lynched.

In the majority of the games I've been lynched I was always either arguing with someone I was scum reading or stated that I think that person was scum and been right every time. I don't know how to convince people because building cases just aren't my thing I feel. I give reasons why I think someone is scummy and sometimes I just get asked what's the motivation for why someone did what they did or voted and I'm just like I can't tell you why I just feel based on these things I get a scummy vibe from them and it doesn't always work on convincing people.

Voting. I'm still not used to immediately voting for someone off of pings, I like to vote someone who I feel is going to definitely flip scum but people view not voting as scummy.
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Post Post #165 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:44 pm

Post by Lil Uzi Vert »

I understand rb's beef though. It's something satisfying finding scum without the use of power roles.
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Post Post #166 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:49 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Incidentally, this is also the reason mafiascum has a reputation for being elitist. People come here and want to play, but they have no clue how to handle the game in this particular format. Almost no other site has weeks-long deadlines for days. The response of many veterans of mafiascum is, "you need to learn, kid, this is how things are done on here". Mafiascum has a reputation for being "if you fit, you fit, if you don't, gtfo". And that's at least partially because people
don't
teach the newbies about these things.

They don't teach the newbies how to scumhunt without PRs--it's a given. Either you learn how to scumhunt without PRs, or you flake from the site likely to never play here again because you can't handle the pressure. Of course this might seem like a shitty attitude to people, but we're all guilty of it, because we do it without realizing we're doing it. We will write people off. We will assume they're either scum or a lost-cause-town, and basically hope wait and pray that they replace out so a "competent" player can take the slot and we can "play the game properly".

Everyone, myself included, is guilty of this to at least some extent.

On mafiascum, the standard is weeks-long deadlines. The second standard is that we do not use many PRs, except in themes. (Which are largely role madness, though not entirely.) Outside of opens, we don't run many games where the roles are known, either. So a newbie comes in, has no clue what to do and how to do it, and is basically left out in the wilderness, on their own, and told, "Yo. You're on your own. Now, learn to survive, or die." And most of them do in fact die. And even those who survive, even those who make it, don't learn everything they need to.

They only get the basics. They're not told how to thrive. They're told we use dayplay over nightplay, but not told how to use said dayplay. Many, many, MANY sites have the entire day be what on mafiascum amounts to the RVS: their random voting stage is the entire first day. Future days, after the first lynch, and after the first night of power role usage, become serious. But here on mafiascum, you're expected to scumhunt from the RVS onward, and most don't even know how to transition out of the RVS, yet alone scumhunt from it.

Mafiascum inherently
demands
a standard of play higher than that on most other sites. When I play on another site, I'm usually not playing seriously. I'll play just for fun, casually, because the game doesn't take nearly as much effort. It's relaxing, to just kind-of go at it at my own pace. But on mafiascum, I can't do that. Everything has to be real. Effort is required. I'm forced to actually think. Basic scumhunting strategies which can land me the entire scumteam on other sites (and frequently will) fall utterly flat on here because on those other sites the scumhunting strategies aren't as well-known as they are here on mafiascum, so there they haven't adapted whereas on here they have.

It is hard. It is difficult. Mafia on mafiascum tends to have a certain degree of toxicity where being civil and calmly, cooly explaining to others exactly what they need to be doing is nearly nonexistent. For a start, you don't know if that person you're lecturing is actually town. Even if you somehow do and/or correctly assume that they are, keeping patience with them is ridiculously difficult. Their antics will get on your nerve. Their craziness, their lack of refinement, is annoying, because they're not playing up to par with what you personally know should need to be done. And teaching in those conditions is very, very difficult.

Which is why most of us don't bother. And is why mafiascum has that reputation for elitism.
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Post Post #167 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:55 pm

Post by JaeReed »

In post 161, mhsmith0 wrote:Essentially, IC's post a little bit about super basic theory stuff, and then people are more or less left to figure it out (or not) on their own. And so you get a newbie game where something like 2-6 players (depending on how "new" the newbies actually are, and whether it's 6/2/1 or 5/3/1, and for that matter sometimes some of the SE's really don't know what they're doing either) are just newbies who are more or less clueless, and then you get the fairly predictable result of scum doing very well in setups that SHOULD be town-sided, with occasional instances of newbscum teams just getting wrecked by more experienced players.
My first two newbie games on site both had scum ICs. Both lurked. The third I replaced into had a lurker scum IC. (for the record, mastin, I was playing my 2nd newbie alongside Fractals, iirc, and lilith's C9++ I played with Ranger, so it's hard for me to tell exactly
which
of those to count as my 2nd game overall, but in Fractals you basically had me as a fresh newb from a lurker IC that only told me I was good for a newbie or something like that)

Asking for post-game feedback netted me squat because "I was scum this game so I'm not sure" basically.
I asked both during and after my first game about VCA and still had no idea. It was only when I spectated you (smith) playing
as scum
with Rask that one time in Ranger's first IC game that I started to understand the process, because you were doing what an IC should be doing. You manipulated the VC so that the VCA was useless that game but you still talked about your process and it was the process you would have gone through as town.

Basically, I ended up an SE that had never played scum nor had a town IC. The scum ICs were largely unhelpful in helping me actually learn the game beyond terminology that I hadn't already picked up from the wiki.

It's at the point where I see an unhelpful IC and I want it lynched. Don't IC if you aren't willing to teach the newbies. Teaching people how to play is not something that should clash with playing to further your win con. Adjust your play to suit. Don't just avoid giving helpful information or say it's not important to learn x thing. Encourage growth and trying different ways of reading people. State your opinion and make it clear that it's just your opinion and others have differing ones.
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Post Post #168 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:56 pm

Post by mastin2 »

(It doesn't help that by and large, mafiascum when seeing someone do something will just respond to it with "lol". That response, near-universal, basically acts to shut down the discussion, ending civil conversation before it begins. And we all do it. Including me, as I just demonstrated. :P The response of "lol" serves largely to be demeaning to the person we are loling at, and because most members of mafiascum do this to others, the result is that we appear "above them"...aka, elitist.)
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Post Post #169 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:00 pm

Post by Lil Uzi Vert »

Yeah I'm guilty of that as well. Sometimes some cases or reasoning for a vote is just moon logic to the extreme though. :lol:
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Post Post #170 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:06 pm

Post by mastin2 »

And the thing which cements this all is...those that are capable of helping, often don't.

Like. Many people have told me I'm a good teacher. I can lecture people well enough, I'm fine at doing that. But I absolutely can't teach when it's expected of me to teach. Every time that I
have
taught someone, it was in an environment where I was not expected to have been a teacher. Meaning, I can't IC worth a damn. Trust me, I've tried. Every time, I end up epically failing to deliver, because I literally can't figure out how to perform under pressure, so to speak. When I am expected to teach, I flake from it. (Heck, mhsmith knows this because I promised him some feedback he never got from me and I still feel bad about that and I STILL to this day want to do that feedback and remember his request for it but I never can bring myself to actually DO it.)

It's only when I willingly volunteer in situations which there is no expectation of me (for instance, as a reviewer giving commentary) that I am capable of giving people lessons. And that means my abilities as a teacher are limited. I know of the problem. I recognize it is there. If I was around more in the areas I needed to be in I could help people more. Yet because I am not, I cannot.

One idea which has begun to form in my mind though is that maybe I can give passive commentary as a spectator. When there is no obligation for me to read, I can just randomly comment on whatever comes up in the dead thread. I get access to a number of dead threads via reviews. What this basically would be is me expanding it to
all
dead threads in games I would never play. (For instance, I have a policy of not playing in Normal games. I could also ask I suppose to be in newbie dead topics.)

But knowing me, I probably won't actually follow through and do it. Or if I did, I'd quickly abandon the project after discovering how much work it'd be.

It's not easy being everywhere you're needed to be--in fact, it's rather impossible.

Basically, while I know of the problem, and desire to help with the problem, I can't actually be able to FIX the problem because of my own limitations.
So the problem remains, and will continue to remain.
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Post Post #171 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:07 pm

Post by JaeReed »

In post 166, mastin2 wrote:For a start, you don't know if that person you're lecturing is actually town. Even if you somehow do and/or correctly assume that they are, keeping patience with them is ridiculously difficult. Their antics will get on your nerve. Their craziness, their lack of refinement, is annoying, because they're not playing up to par with what you personally know should need to be done. And teaching in those conditions is very, very difficult.
Oh my god... I was in a newbie game recently where the IC wasn't really...being helpful...as town. Anyway, this one newbie (cute af btw but somewhat frustrating) wasn't doing much of anything and I was pushing her for it earlier in the day, before deciding she was probably just town. She went after me for this, which was fine! She was finally beginning to scumhunt!
me wrote:Anyway, I changed my vote off you because Tier looked worse and your constant victimized tone while still not doing much made me think that maybe you really did just have no confidence in attempting to scumhunt because of a fear of being wrong. You're doing great now, though.
her wrote:Also, the "You're doing great now" bit. Doing great in what? Guessing who one of the scum are? I mean, thanks for the compliment, but I'm also somewhat reading this as confirmation that I'm on the right track.
me wrote:Doing great in thinking about the game, getting reads, and pushing them. Because by doing that you can prove to the rest of town that you're town, even if you're wrong.

I feel I should also elaborate that you should be doing this as scum also. For the same reason, pretty much. So regardless of alignment here you're doing great in actually getting out content.
her wrote:And I know that thats what you meant, but I'm still reading it as "you're on the right track."
I felt like I was beating my head against a brick wall. I liked that she was finally starting to do something and trying to read people, but she was wrong on me and suddenly from no confidence in trying to read anyone to "I guess you're scumclaiming" mindset was so frustrating.
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Post Post #172 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:10 pm

Post by Lil Uzi Vert »

I think it's an effort thing personally, anytime I keep at something and really wanted to learn, I got good at it.
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Post Post #173 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:11 pm

Post by JaeReed »

In post 170, mastin2 wrote:But knowing me, I probably won't actually follow through and do it. Or if I did, I'd quickly abandon the project after discovering how much work it'd be.
This is why you shouldn't expand it to all dead threads or even make a decision to do something like that. Just comment as you feel the need to and I feel that's still better than doing nothing at all. I think what you're doing is fine.
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Post Post #174 (ISO) » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:15 pm

Post by JaeReed »

In post 172, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:I think it's an effort thing personally, anytime I keep at something and really wanted to learn, I got good at it.
Usually as have I. Even if I don't acknowledge it myself, others have. I will always feel like I'm the worst player in the world. So I try to fake confidence. Usually I fall through on that but fake it til you make it or something along those lines :P

But I feel like so long as I keep trying and don't grow complacent with just "I suck, might as well do the absolute minimum and never vote" then there's at least a chance. As mastin said earlier. Continually trying to improve is the key here. Even if I'm right in thinking I'm trash-tier, there's no way I'm going to improve without trying. And anyone who says I should stop trying because I suck is kind of a dick for it (or mafia, but I still believe as mafia you shouldn't need to crush someone's motivation that way to win).
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