Mini Normal 1857 (Game Over - Mafia Wins!)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Oh well. I'll keep it in mind but this doesn't happen when you actually think before you vote in lylo

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Voting before everyone has posted is just terrible town play especially when there's daychat

[Raskolnikov]

That's true too. I knew you wouldn't do that, wasn't sure about shadonra but with his somewhat lackadaisical style I didn't expect it from him either. Drone I thought if he did instavote it'd have been on me, given yesterday.

I assumed I'd have to win a 1v1 today, told sesq not to bet on anyone instavoting and that a quick lylo was rather unlikely but I was wrong about that

[Raskolnikov]

I was wondering how it'd play out if me/drone did 1v1, since you thought that was the team, who you might've ended up voting.

[Raskolnikov]

Was very worried about today tbh, as a scumteam it looked rather obvious if you give it 10 minutes. Really bad associations, we straight up ignored each other all game.

[Raskolnikov]

Spoiler: was gonna push shannon even harder d2, decided against it

Regarding transcend/rb and how shannon plays into it

First mention is in 394, to kohai saying he has a problem with transcend's fluffyrabbit townread. Shannon's answer is wishy-washy but concludes he might be right [about it being weird]. Then a mention that she played with transcend and luv before but lacks any memory of those games.
Now this is so far okay as a basis for a read.
But follow this through: shannon soon strong townreads fluffyrabbit too. Of note is the later 859 shannon has the early fluffy posts as screaming town to her, the same ones transcend got his early from which were too early. Possibly an oversight, but if this was the basis of the read you'd think she'd reconsider. And minor, but she doesn't revisit that previous game or meta (i.e. go back and read your own game you were a part of) when she later struggles "reading" transcend.

Now around this point transcend started to scumread shannon for a forced post, and then to rb starting that push, with 751 saying [rb] and other scum most likely being shannon and kohai(gerryoat).
813

My personal thoughts on Transcend lean towards scummy, but I take the word of people earlier in the game who said it's basically impossible to tell D1. Given that he can also apparently be really good as town, I don't think we should lynch there today, based on a cost/benefit thinky thing.

Now the thing is this shannon is expressing a mild scumlean here with the caveat that she shouldn't lynch him today. But I don't understand the pickyness when shannon didn't seem to have other scumreads; this prioritization makes sense if you have an alternative scumread that isn't a potentially good town player (you vote that person instead) but not really otherwise.

Interesting about RB's image macros potentially being a tic. Catch of the game if RB flips scum.

This is the first rb mention, although an indirect one as it's more talking about transcend and transcend's read on rb.
What I find interesting is the "transcend strong player" concept. Not first brought up by shannon but somewhat adopted- and from shannon scum perspective the view absolutely makes sense: transcend calling out RB that early based on image usage along with shannon in 751. The thing is this wouldn't even be an overly conscious decision, but rather just the truth to her pov, with transcend looking like a legitimately great town player her view actually makes sense if you think about it. It only looks odd because at that time she wouldn't have that much reason to think like that about pretty much her only scumread, and before rb flip you wouldn't necessarily be thinking about how impressive transcend's catch was. I think if shannon's scum she didn't want to vote right here out of a sort of self-conscious fear; I could see why she'd hesitate voting transcend right after he says rb/shannon. Also theorize that around this time she may have already been thinking of transcend in nightkill terms given the "respect" view and the (for scum shannon pov) accuracy.

814 to 824 is an exchange between transcend - shannon.
815 is awkward and the treating of transcend doesn't match the read (she said she doesn't want to lynch transcend as she isn't sure on him flipping scum)
816 has, after her townreads, the lone scumread, "Scum but not lynching for reasons stated: Transcend" which makes sense in about no situation.
Transcend rightfully wonders why shannon doesn't just come at him and her response being it's a read solely on bad vibes and questioning the rb wagon stuff as alignment-indicative.
Finally he asks why she doesn't just wagon him for the sake of clarifying the "bad vibes" read and says her play is too careful and tactical with the response in 824 kind of just mocking it
Read altogether shannon's approach regarding her read is absurd and answers to transcend ridiculous.
It's even awkward for scum, but I think what happened is shannon didn't expect to be pressed on her read or probed too far into it. Her townreads generally either townread transcend and/or thought he was good and you wouldn't expect any of them to have a problem with that sort of read because of her not-lynching caveat. It's only really transcend himself who could've challenged that and questioned the lack of vote because of how middle of the road it was.

852, 854, 859
I don't see why as town she wouldn't feel like quoting her scumread and try to back that up but happily does so for a townread. If anything I tend to get the opposite with describing townreads being pretty boring (and tends to get them killed).
She casts more shade here for tone and transcend switching styles but holds vote. The logic being that transcend acting seriously to push and justify a wagon isn't the same behaviour as he had in rvs. Around this point the rb wagon is starting to pick up.

911
Thing to note here: the "anti-town" angle regarding transcend's call for hammer. Good vs bad manners. I agree waiting for a claim d1 is generally correct play, but in that situation if my top scumread did that I would simply find it scummy rather than bad etiquette. It's a subtlety of phrasing but shannon is pushing this moreso that it's improper or anti-town than that its scummy and that transcend is scum for it. There is a sort of shock in the tone, but instead of the town sort of shock that your scumread is acting that scummy, this reads more of a shock that rb could get lynched without claim as the focus rather than transcend himself.
The transcend theory after that is actually not so bad and has depth of thought to it, I can see that being a legitimate fear. The only problem being she introduced it as "Actually, I can see a way that Scum Transcend makes this play:" which gives the feeling she herself doesn't seem to buy into it; there just isn't quite the conviction behind it.

1089
This is after rb and then transcend claim.
Shannon says the crumbs were very obvious (kind of) and it was her reasoning for not pushing him. I didn't think much of this at first beyond finding it OTT, but on review I do buy this, it makes perfect sense for her actions. But being true doesn't mean it's town. Either align can definitely pick up crumbs but naturally scum (or PR, but shannon confirms lil's "didn't visit anywhere" result) will look a lot harder, and shannon was the only one who made it out as she already knew. On top of that though she said it was incredibly obvious too. I can't personally judge this part that well given almost every crumb looks obvious in hindsight because of, well, hindsight. It is true the JK claim didn't really counterclaim BP so I don't have a problem with that analysis; again though the thing is she's pushing transcend for being wrong or acting anti-town moreso than being scum.

1278
Emphasis is on "case". At no point does shannon commit to a townread onto rb and in fact barely mentions him. It's the lack of case shannon has a problem with, the process, the urgency. And on transcend the gut/bad vibes, the change of tone (why is he being serious and using actual reasoning?) and the handling of claims as anti-town and bad manners. Nothing about the read, and town shannon would absolutely talk more about her own rb read here instead of focusing on this angle. Generally people don't take that much issue with a lynch of someone they don't townread, even if they're against it's kind of whatever but shannon is adamant about having it dismissed.

Altogether I think transcend was on the money regarding rb AND shannon, which was part of why shannon gained the notion of him as a very good player here (despite not remembering their game) and also why she wanted to discredit the case on rb without straight up townreading him. Shannon interaction with rb is almost non-existant.

[Transcend]

Welp

[Raskolnikov]

Hey you can't post yet my friend, what if there's a Town 1-shot governor-vigilante? BP-PGO? Maybe kyouko's supersaint or vengeful.

[JaeReed]

VC 5.01 (FINAL)

ssbm_Kyouko (3)

: Drone, Raskolnikov, Sesq

-- LYNCH!

NOT VOTING (2)

: shadonra, ssbm_Kyouko

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2017-01-26 09:05:00)

A win condition has been achieved!

[JaeReed]

ssbm_Kyouko has been lynched.

He was...

Spoiler:

Welcome to Mini 1857, ssbm_Kyouko!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

The scum team of Raskolnikov, Sesq, and rb win!

[Titus]

*shrug*

SSM, I did say that I could only inherit town roles BTW. You just had ceased listening because you didn't understand that I'm usually rather accurate at Gunsmith.

[Transcend]

k so how about we don't lynch in my townblocs next time

you lynched two people in my townbloc of all town

c'mon drone i'm ASHAMED

[Transcend]

hats to sesq tho and rask for saving that scummy slot lol

[drealmerz7]

hooogaboogadoogaadooo

[Transcend]

hooogaboogadoogaadooo

same

[gerryoat]

sesq and rask played well, but town was garbage.

[JaeReed]

Neighbourhood and Scum thread will be released once all members agree or after 48 hours of no objections. Whichever comes first.

Mod Thread:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=69352

Dead Thread:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=69474

[JaeReed]

Night actions:

Night 1:
gerryoat docs Transcend.
Transcend activates 1-shot Bulletproof.
ironstove strongman kills Transcend. (Success: Transcend dies)
Lil Uzi Vert follows shannon. (Success: shannon took no action)

Night 2:
Titus Gunsmith checks Impoetic. (FAILED: NO RESULT)
Raskolnikov roleblocks Titus. (SUCCESS)
Sesq kills drealmerz7. (SUCCESS)
gerryoat docs Titus. (SUCCESS)

Night 3:
Rask kills TTTT (success)
Rask rolecops shadonra (success: Vanilla)

Night 4:
Raskolnikov kills shannon

[Transcend]

Night actions so far:

gerryoat docs Transcend.
Transcend activates 1-shot Bulletproof.
ironstove strongman kills Transcend.

bad dog

[Titus]

Spoiler: was gonna push shannon even harder d2, decided against it

Regarding transcend/rb and how shannon plays into it

First mention is in 394, to kohai saying he has a problem with transcend's fluffyrabbit townread. Shannon's answer is wishy-washy but concludes he might be right [about it being weird]. Then a mention that she played with transcend and luv before but lacks any memory of those games.
Now this is so far okay as a basis for a read.
But follow this through: shannon soon strong townreads fluffyrabbit too. Of note is the later 859 shannon has the early fluffy posts as screaming town to her, the same ones transcend got his early from which were too early. Possibly an oversight, but if this was the basis of the read you'd think she'd reconsider. And minor, but she doesn't revisit that previous game or meta (i.e. go back and read your own game you were a part of) when she later struggles "reading" transcend.

Now around this point transcend started to scumread shannon for a forced post, and then to rb starting that push, with 751 saying [rb] and other scum most likely being shannon and kohai(gerryoat).
813

My personal thoughts on Transcend lean towards scummy, but I take the word of people earlier in the game who said it's basically impossible to tell D1. Given that he can also apparently be really good as town, I don't think we should lynch there today, based on a cost/benefit thinky thing.

Now the thing is this shannon is expressing a mild scumlean here with the caveat that she shouldn't lynch him today. But I don't understand the pickyness when shannon didn't seem to have other scumreads; this prioritization makes sense if you have an alternative scumread that isn't a potentially good town player (you vote that person instead) but not really otherwise.

Interesting about RB's image macros potentially being a tic. Catch of the game if RB flips scum.

This is the first rb mention, although an indirect one as it's more talking about transcend and transcend's read on rb.
What I find interesting is the "transcend strong player" concept. Not first brought up by shannon but somewhat adopted- and from shannon scum perspective the view absolutely makes sense: transcend calling out RB that early based on image usage along with shannon in 751. The thing is this wouldn't even be an overly conscious decision, but rather just the truth to her pov, with transcend looking like a legitimately great town player her view actually makes sense if you think about it. It only looks odd because at that time she wouldn't have that much reason to think like that about pretty much her only scumread, and before rb flip you wouldn't necessarily be thinking about how impressive transcend's catch was. I think if shannon's scum she didn't want to vote right here out of a sort of self-conscious fear; I could see why she'd hesitate voting transcend right after he says rb/shannon. Also theorize that around this time she may have already been thinking of transcend in nightkill terms given the "respect" view and the (for scum shannon pov) accuracy.

814 to 824 is an exchange between transcend - shannon.
815 is awkward and the treating of transcend doesn't match the read (she said she doesn't want to lynch transcend as she isn't sure on him flipping scum)
816 has, after her townreads, the lone scumread, "Scum but not lynching for reasons stated: Transcend" which makes sense in about no situation.
Transcend rightfully wonders why shannon doesn't just come at him and her response being it's a read solely on bad vibes and questioning the rb wagon stuff as alignment-indicative.
Finally he asks why she doesn't just wagon him for the sake of clarifying the "bad vibes" read and says her play is too careful and tactical with the response in 824 kind of just mocking it
Read altogether shannon's approach regarding her read is absurd and answers to transcend ridiculous.
It's even awkward for scum, but I think what happened is shannon didn't expect to be pressed on her read or probed too far into it. Her townreads generally either townread transcend and/or thought he was good and you wouldn't expect any of them to have a problem with that sort of read because of her not-lynching caveat. It's only really transcend himself who could've challenged that and questioned the lack of vote because of how middle of the road it was.

852, 854, 859
I don't see why as town she wouldn't feel like quoting her scumread and try to back that up but happily does so for a townread. If anything I tend to get the opposite with describing townreads being pretty boring (and tends to get them killed).
She casts more shade here for tone and transcend switching styles but holds vote. The logic being that transcend acting seriously to push and justify a wagon isn't the same behaviour as he had in rvs. Around this point the rb wagon is starting to pick up.

911
Thing to note here: the "anti-town" angle regarding transcend's call for hammer. Good vs bad manners. I agree waiting for a claim d1 is generally correct play, but in that situation if my top scumread did that I would simply find it scummy rather than bad etiquette. It's a subtlety of phrasing but shannon is pushing this moreso that it's improper or anti-town than that its scummy and that transcend is scum for it. There is a sort of shock in the tone, but instead of the town sort of shock that your scumread is acting that scummy, this reads more of a shock that rb could get lynched without claim as the focus rather than transcend himself.
The transcend theory after that is actually not so bad and has depth of thought to it, I can see that being a legitimate fear. The only problem being she introduced it as "Actually, I can see a way that Scum Transcend makes this play:" which gives the feeling she herself doesn't seem to buy into it; there just isn't quite the conviction behind it.

1089
This is after rb and then transcend claim.
Shannon says the crumbs were very obvious (kind of) and it was her reasoning for not pushing him. I didn't think much of this at first beyond finding it OTT, but on review I do buy this, it makes perfect sense for her actions. But being true doesn't mean it's town. Either align can definitely pick up crumbs but naturally scum (or PR, but shannon confirms lil's "didn't visit anywhere" result) will look a lot harder, and shannon was the only one who made it out as she already knew. On top of that though she said it was incredibly obvious too. I can't personally judge this part that well given almost every crumb looks obvious in hindsight because of, well, hindsight. It is true the JK claim didn't really counterclaim BP so I don't have a problem with that analysis; again though the thing is she's pushing transcend for being wrong or acting anti-town moreso than being scum.

1278
Emphasis is on "case". At no point does shannon commit to a townread onto rb and in fact barely mentions him. It's the lack of case shannon has a problem with, the process, the urgency. And on transcend the gut/bad vibes, the change of tone (why is he being serious and using actual reasoning?) and the handling of claims as anti-town and bad manners. Nothing about the read, and town shannon would absolutely talk more about her own rb read here instead of focusing on this angle. Generally people don't take that much issue with a lynch of someone they don't townread, even if they're against it's kind of whatever but shannon is adamant about having it dismissed.

Altogether I think transcend was on the money regarding rb AND shannon, which was part of why shannon gained the notion of him as a very good player here (despite not remembering their game) and also why she wanted to discredit the case on rb without straight up townreading him. Shannon interaction with rb is almost non-existant.

Probably a good move.

If I got the impoetic lynch, I would have been all over you.

An uncontested scum lynch d1 means bussing scum or lurker/ineffective scum. Lurker scum is eliminated if Shad is town. Thus, hard bus.

I couldn't really say that with the hammer and driving.

[mhsmith0]

wrt VCA...

Basic VCA

gerryoat

(5): TTTT, ssbm_Kyouko, shadonra, Sesq, shannon -- LYNCH!
ssbm_Kyouko (3): Drone, Titus, gerryoat -- L-2!
Drone (1):

Raskolnikov

For ANYONE townreading kyouko at all, that guy sitting out the day's lynch when it's town v town? That's scum with substantial probability.

More basic VCA

rb

(7):

Transcend, drealmerz7,

ssbm_Kyouko, Sesq, gerryoat, ironstove,

TTTT

-- LYNCH!

day 1 scum lynch, days 2-4 town lynch = rb was bussed, probably by both buddies (if he hadn't been bussed, then why did town suddenly become so ineffective after a day 1 scum lynch?)

and honestly, that's a reasonable conclusion to draw BEFORE the failed day 4 lynch. especially given a goon flip and rb having held strong as the day 1 lynch leader even given (IIRC) titus's attempts to save him.

Good VCA could have been a useful tool in solving the game. Crappy VCA probably wouldn't have helped at all.

[JaeReed]

So something I'm going to formally acknowledge now that the game is over is that I wasn't clear enough to Titus on how her role actually functioned.

The idea was the Universal Backup was 1-Shot in order to not punish the scumteam too hard or potentially reward town for really bad play. I did not effectively manage to communicate this to Titus and it potentially influenced the game (I don't know if she still would have taken the shot that night or held on to it, for example). For that I'm sorry.

Thank you to all the replacements and players for playing.

[Kohai]

Gg guys. Sorry for having to replace out.

Irony: Town doctor having to replace out due to health reasons.

[Titus]

266, both wagons on town.

Thus, scum likely avoid or have one on either.
Rask off wagon.

I didn't know SSM was town though given their anti-town pushes.

[JaeReed]

Raskolnikov - Mafia Jack of All Trades
TTTT - Vanilla Townie
Sesq - Mafia Goon
Transcend - Town Jack of All Trades
gerryoat - Town Doctor
ssbm_Kyouko - Vanilla Townie
Lil Uzi Vert - Town 2-Shot Follower
Titus - Town 1-Shot Universal Backup Neighbour
rb - Mafia Goon
shannon - Vanilla Townie
Drone - Town Neighbour
shadonra - Vanilla Townie
drealmerz7 - Vanilla Townie

^ Role list.

I do want to say shadonra did a really good job replacing into a slot that I thought was pretty much doomed, and I specifically received the request from him to be put on the replacement list after Impoetic said she'd most likely replace out, and he mentioned he thought she was town. He did a really good job to recognize that and had Rask stressing out at one point when he fingered the team. I was really impressed with him.