Mini Normal 1857 (Game Over - Mafia Wins!)

[Raskolnikov]

If I got the impoetic lynch, I would have been all over you.

Wouldn't have ever let you lynch impoetic unless I intended to nightkill you same-cycle, people tend to have clarity after being proven wrong.

Before she replaced out I really wanted to bring her as a lurker to lylo anyways. Widely scumread lurkers are honorary scum, wouldn't ever wanna bus them if possible.

I really suck at PR reading though, I wanted to bring gerryoat to lylo too, it was lucky he was hammered without getting to claim.

[rb]

Rask + Sesq OP scum

[Raskolnikov]

Our cohesion and synergy was pretty off, association kind of obvious if anyone looked; straight up ignored each other. I probably should've said I townread her at least so it wasn't totally bare, but I wasn't sure how to do it in a way that didn't look shallow.
Town were too distracted by the whole PR clusterfuck though so we never got any serious pressure or eyes on either of us until too late.

[Raskolnikov]

If every 2p-neighbourhood really is town/town then that shit's broken, you can just assume 2 town and easily win any of those games.

Need some games with 1-town 1-scum hoods and get that sorted out

[Raskolnikov]

Original plan for lategame was getting rid of drone+titus in the same cycle (lynch 1 kill 1) because I thought neighbour logic would clear him like that. Was absolutely not planning on killing shannon lol, she was one of my take-to-lylo picks earlier. Was funny she posted that bah too, I did see her online before the flip and imagined her all prepared and eager to solve the lylo, absolutely not expecting to get killed, and then being so disappointed

[mastin2]

Also kinda annoyed that Titus didn't explain she could only inherit town roles because that was one of the reasons I thought her claim was fake, was that she might inherit strongman

You apparently don't have a good grasp on the definition of Universal Backup.

In Normals at the very least--if not the whole site--"Town Universal Backup" means "any town role", and "Scum Universal Backup" means "any scum role". This is because if you just said Town Backup, there's a connotation that the Backup is for a specific role: Town Doctor Backup (e.g. Nurse), Town Cop Backup (e.g. Deputy), you get the idea. "Universal" means not "any alignment", but "any role".

This is the case across ALL Normals. It's right there in the wiki.

Universal Backup (if self-aware) is considered Normal on mafiascum.net. A Universal Backup can be of any alignment,

but it should only activate upon the first death of a power role

of their own alignment

. A power role in this case is any role that is not Vanilla (so not a Vanilla Townie or a Mafia Goon).

(The underlined clause is the important part.)
It is also the case in every theme game I've ever played.

[Titus]

Mastina, did you approve the phrasing of the role PM for the Universal Backup? If so, we will have words.

That stuff wasn't clear and I did my best to avoid throwing JaeReed under the bus as their implementation is creative.

[Raskolnikov]

In that scenario couldn't you just PM mod for more clarification? At least that's what I'd have done. I think in normal queue there's an expectation of people to at least know what their role does with little-to-no ambiguity?

[mastin2]

Unless RB was double bussed the team isn't sesq/Rask though.

By the way, basic theorycrafting here.

When you lynch scum on D1, it's not an all-town wagon.
Period.

Scum bus, and there's a 50% chance of a double-bus.

On D2 and later, it's more ambiguous. You can get all-town wagons going. (It's still rare, but it's possible.) On D1, though, 95/100 times, if you lynch scum, it's because scum helped you lynch scum.

Going into advanced theory crafting: "How to tell that this isn't the 5%"...
...I laid this out in the dead PT, but think about the circumstances behind the lynch.
Namely?

rb claimed a power role which was counterclaimed.
rb did nothing to fight his wagon.
rb did nothing but lurk around both preclaim and postclaim.

What do these factors tell you?
They tell you that rb is scum, sure. But they also tell you that rb's claim was not done to save his life. It was done to get a counterclaim. (You can posit this thanks to knowing said roleclaim? Transcend? Was the N1 nightkill. So the basic assumption here is, scum claimed a role to get a counterclaim, got it, and killed said counterclaim because they got what they were after.)

Okay. So if rb's claim wasn't done to save his life, what does that tell you about the wagon on him?
rb's claim was done to get a counter, not to save his life...which tells you...scum had no interest in saving his life.
If scum had no interest in saving his life, this presumably would mean scum were not on a counterwagon.
This was supported by...there basically BEING no counterwagon to rb. There were a couple of small things, but never a full, true, proper counterwagon to rb.

So the simple conclusion to draw from these facts: rb knew he was going down. His TEAM knew he was going down. Because his TEAM knew he was going down, they had incentive to...
...Bus!

Placing this game in the 95%. Where to lynch scum, you needed scum.

Now granted, determining that it was a double-bus is harder than determining scum bussed. But this was visible as early as D2. Every town flip only strengthened this. It was stronger on D3. It was stronger on D4. Every day, you had more reason than the last to suspect scum were on the wagon, because that's what real VCA does. It doesn't arbitrarily make a blind assumption, of lynching scum = town and lynching town = scum. It looks at the circumstances behind it, to determine positioning.

[drealmerz7]

PRs don't matter

scum or town

what mattered was manipulating of the views of the situation through the game and letting town squirm on its reliance on the PRs, which when lied about, become worthless and makes scums job SO much easier

town should never, ever, ever lie - there is like, maybe okay time for it once ever 5 years in the land of all mafia, and it already happened this past year so don't even think about it, ever, okay?!

[mhsmith0]

If every 2p-neighbourhood really is town/town then that shit's broken, you can just assume 2 town and easily win any of those games.

Need some games with 1-town 1-scum hoods and get that sorted out

Those exist. Scum CRUSH those.

[drealmerz7]

and yes, making the rb lynch take that long made the wagon become almost worthless as well
everything just kind of becomes a gloss-over fuzzzzzzzz, it only helps scum build piles of poo, quick D1s are healthy most of the time - you can usually "feel" it if you need more time, and then you just take it - don't get scared because things seem simple, sometimes they are

no one was proposing any better wagons/lynches, when that happens and there is a good case with confident people that you aren't totally scum-reading, go ahead and go with it unless you are super-TRing the slot

and none should have been TRin rb in the slighest

[mhsmith0]

Now granted, determining that it was a double-bus is harder than determining scum bussed. But this was visible as early as D2. Every town flip only strengthened this. It was stronger on D3. It was stronger on D4. Every day, you had more reason than the last to suspect scum were on the wagon, because that's what real VCA does. It doesn't arbitrarily make a blind assumption, of lynching scum = town and lynching town = scum. It looks at the circumstances behind it, to determine positioning.

^anyine who interprets vca as "lynching scum = town and lynching town = scum" is simply bad at vca. In related news, many people are bad at vca

[mastin2]

Mastina, did you approve the phrasing of the role PM for the Universal Backup? If so, we will have words.

It came up, but that might've been a slight oversight on our part: looking at the review thread (currently not public but will presumably be made public), JaeReed mentioned making a change to the Universal Backup PM that mhsmith had recommended, but we never actually

saw

the change, which would've been the proper procedure as a formality. There was the concern about wording in the review thread, we just thought it had been addressed as much as possible before the game had begun.

[JaeReed]

I think what I found most amusing was Uzi lied about his role here AFTER being lynched in Questionable Content mafia for claiming he was flat unkillable at night as an ascetic inventor.

[JaeReed]

@mastin second from the last here is the final role PM, not sure if you checked in the mod thread.

Role PMs

Spoiler:

Welcome to Mini 1857, Sesq!
You are a

Mafia Goon

. Your partners are ironstove, a

Mafia Jack of All Trades

, and rb, a

Mafia Goon

.
You may talk with your team, day or night, in this thread.
Your team possesses a factional kill which any of you may perform during the night phase.
You win when mafia constitutes 50% of the remaining players with no other anti-town players not aligned with your faction alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini 1857, rb!
You are a

Mafia Goon

. Your partners are ironstove, a

Mafia Jack of All Trades

, and rb, a

Mafia Goon

.
You may talk with your team, day or night, in this thread.
Your team possesses a factional kill which any of you may perform during the night phase.
You win when mafia constitutes 50% of the remaining players with no other anti-town players not aligned with your faction alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini 1857, ironstove!
You are a

Mafia Jack of All Trades

. Your partners are Sesq, a

Mafia Goon

, and rb, a

Mafia Goon

.
You may talk with your team, day or night, in this thread.
Your abilities are:

1-Shot Strongman

– You may perform this along with your factional kill in order to bypass any protective or roleblocking abilities that would otherwise prevent your kill from succeeding.

1-Shot Rolecop

– You may choose a player to investigate at night for what role they are.

1-Shot Roleblocker

– You may choose a player to cause their action that night to fail.
Your team possesses a factional kill which any of you may perform during the night phase.
You win when mafia constitutes 50% of the remaining players with no other anti-town players not aligned with your faction alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini 1857, TTTT!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini 1857, ssbm_Kyouko!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini 1857, shannon!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini 1857, Impoetic!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini 1857, drealmerz7!
You are a

Vanilla Townie

.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini 1857, Kohai!
You are a

Town Doctor

.
During the night you may target one player to protect them from being killed that night.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini 1857, Transcend!
You are a

Town Jack of All Trades

.
Your abilities are:

1-Shot Bulletproof

– You may activate this at night to make yourself impervious to one killing action that night.

1-Shot Jailkeeper

– You may choose a player to jail at night, causing any actions by them or on them during that night phase to fail.

1-Shot Gunsmith

– You may choose a player to investigate for a gun that night. Possible results are “Has a gun”, “Does not have a gun”, and “No result”.
You may activate only one ability per night.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini 1857, Lil Uzi Vert!
You are a

Town 2-Shot Follower

.
During the night you may target one player to learn what type of action, if any, they performed. Possible results are “No Action”, “Blocking”, “Protective”, “Jailkeeping”, “Role Investigative”, “Action Investigative”, “Killing”, “Miscellaneous”, and “No Result”.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini 1857, iamafluffyrabbit!
You are a

Town 1-Shot Universal Backup Neighbour

.
You are neighbours with Drone, and can talk with them here at any time during the day or night phase.
You will inherit the role of the first town PR that dies. However, your inherited ability will be converted to a 1-shot power.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

Welcome to Mini 1857, Drone!
You are a

Town Neighbour

.
You are neighbours with iamafluffyrabbit, and can talk with them here at any time during the day or night phase.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is still alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role and alignment.

[mhsmith0]

One small note on something I think you should change to be clearer

On UB role PM, please change
You will inherit the role of the first town PR that dies, for one time use only.

to
You will inherit the role of the first town PR that dies. However, your inherited ability will be converted to a 1-shot power.

(and then if the UB inherits JOAT, sent a role PM clarifying that the UB can only choose ONE of the JOAT powers, not that he can use each JOAT power once). Also in that case clarify which powers were already used and can't be used again (unless you want to allow him full selection)

[Raskolnikov]

If every 2p-neighbourhood really is town/town then that shit's broken, you can just assume 2 town and easily win any of those games.

Need some games with 1-town 1-scum hoods and get that sorted out

Those exist. Scum CRUSH those.

Interested in seeing where drone got his "pretty much all 2p neighbours are town/town" statistics from then. I asked during the game too but he didn't answer, and I figured I probably shouldn't bring it up again

[Raskolnikov]

Re: 3166

Does this mean titus never actually had JK? Might not have lynched/killed her then tbh.

[JaeReed]

The change to the role PM that smith suggested was made word for word.
The mod error was in assuming that Titus understood my PM clarification that she could only use one of the remaining powers, not both, instead of double checking with her. Ideally I should have been a bit annoying and bugged her some more on that with trying to make sure I had communicated it effectively, as in hindsight it could be interpreted as the usual "one per night" thing.

[JaeReed]

Re: 3166

Does this mean titus never actually had JK? Might not have lynched/killed her then tbh.

Yeah she was only able to use 1 shot of the inherited power. Because of it not being as clear as it should have been she did think she had the JK shot until she tried to jailkeep ssbm.

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw the miscommunication wasn't why town lost, so while unfortunate I would file under "stuff that happens", just my $0.02 tho.

[Raskolnikov]

Of course not, I just wondered if I would've still lynched titus there if she had no shots of anything left.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Damn Sesq got me good

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Well played