In Memory

[Frozen Angel]

why you want to pressure them?

You said that after expressing your surprise.

[Vaxkiller]

No, I want more pressure on DEO.

I should have wrote

"I want more pressure here

:

Vote DEO""

[KuroiXHF]

Alright. Three days. We should be consolidating.

VOTE: DEO

[ɀefiend]

Also may I (again) remind everyone (but mostly zefiend) that if you scumread The DEO because you believe they faked their push on Lycan then you're buying that:

a) Math would

damn near stalker level creepy

This is horrible and creeps me the hell out.

I am creeped out right now and very disappointed in these vote moves.

Its posts have me feeling so damn creeped out right now. [...] I will not be told that it's okay to ignore someone blatantly using my meta or as town randomly stalking a player not in the game.

continually accuse someone of doing something they deemed horribly creepy and pretend it was making them extremely uncomfortable in order to campaign for that person's lynch, while knowing that person had done nothing wrong.

b) Continue to AtE about it after they were dead posts like

I don't see any other option and that is what freaks me out about this game. I am a bullheaded hated player. No one listens or follows what I do. It is why I can't get invested because every time I try I get creeped out when I reread.

~~Math

to try and emotionally manipulate people into townreading them.

If a person, as scum, were to honestly build their entire case on another player around them having done something "stalker-level creepy" and persistently AtE about it, I would find that ludicrously obnoxious and would never want to play with that person again.

You keep saying I'm ignoring this, but I've already stated my position on meta, MathBlade, the ethics of tactics, etc.

I know I haven't been giving this game much attention, but RadiantCowbell's most recent post is definitely related. There are too many players in this <redacted> that overlap in other <redacted> and it's making things very <redacted> for me.

I'm going to shut up now so I don't get modkilled or force-replaced but if anyone tries to push meta at me again I'm gonna have to quit this game. KEEP IT TO THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME WHEN TALKING TO ME, PLEASE.

I'm going to try and jump back in by reading FA's iso later.

[Postie]

the ethics of tactics

Actually I don't remember you telling anyone about this at all. If you have, please point me to it, otherwise I want to know

exactly

what you think of MathBlade supposedly doing this.

[Postie]

Alright. Three days. We should be consolidating.

VOTE: DEO

This isn't happening. Move your vote somewhere else.

[KuroiXHF]

Alright. Three days. We should be consolidating.

VOTE: DEO

This isn't happening. Move your vote somewhere else.

Votes need to condense. If a condensation happens on a better lynch, I'll move there.

[Postie]

Vax is an infinitely better lynch.

[JaeReed]

I'd rather no lynch than lynch DEO.

[JaeReed]

Vax is an infinitely better lynch.

+

[KuroiXHF]

Vax is an infinitely better lynch.

I'd rather no lynch than lynch DEO.

Goodie. I can ask the same question for both posts. Perhaps I'm missing something - why?

[Postie]

2222 / 2224

[KuroiXHF]

...That can easily be faked. It seems like you're trying to legitimize your gut feel.

[JaeReed]

Vax is an infinitely better lynch.

I'd rather no lynch than lynch DEO.

Goodie. I can ask the same question for both posts. Perhaps I'm missing something - why?

DEO is obvtown. Their pushes have always been righteous. I already gave my case for Vax lynch. You all ignored it, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[JaeReed]

...That can easily be faked. It seems like you're trying to legitimize your gut feel.

It's not gut at all. There is no chance The DEO flips scum here. None.

[Postie]

...That can easily be faked.

The question is not whether or not it can, but whether or not Math is shitty enough person to do so. I believe not.

[KuroiXHF]

Vax is an infinitely better lynch.

I'd rather no lynch than lynch DEO.

Goodie. I can ask the same question for both posts. Perhaps I'm missing something - why?

DEO is obvtown. Their pushes have always been righteous. I already gave my case for Vax lynch. You all ignored it, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I'm asking you to point to it, please. You have a lot of posts and it's difficult to navigate.

...That can easily be faked. It seems like you're trying to legitimize your gut feel.

It's not gut at all. There is no chance The DEO flips scum here. None.

...I disagree.

[drealmerz7]

I really think vax is town - the Ttyll game I was in with him he played the exact same way and it's not a meta-read it's just a "that's him making crap cases as town" - I suppose I should go find some links from that game of posts he made similar to posts here and how scummybadtown they are

[Postie]

I really think vax is town - the Ttyll game I was in with him he played the exact same way and it's not a meta-read it's just a "that's him making crap cases as town" - I suppose I should go find some links from that game of posts he made similar to posts here and how scummybadtown they are

What's stopping him from playing the same way as scum?

[JaeReed]

Thanks for the torture while I'm on my phone.

Here, Kuroi.

I can try to give a soft case if it'll help?

Go for it.

So far it's just what I've noticed early on in the game.

Alright, Gamma scumread around the push on Clemency.
Reasoning: 51 followed by 54 and 56. Hanlon's razor. Titus towncred for 57/59 given that.
By page 5 in my reread I was at Gamma scum, DEO town. Creature and Creeps I was on the fence about as I disliked both of their votes on S_S.
I agreed with 113 and 128

Enter Vedith in 137 with a post that is awful in a way I can't really describe because words. But it's a bad post and there's a reason that I can't articulate right now.

169 still by far the worst hop on I think given Deimos post prior in 154. That said I always misread Klingon and she bubbled KTS and I can't see why she'd do that from a scum perspective. Especially as she's still passing on information from him, which means he trusts her to do so, which means she's not omitting things on him. (Trust is evident in the fact that he's obviously still talking in the PT)

184 again from Vedith is really bad in light of how things have gone down. I don't like the push away from Gamma here. I don't believe it's town motivated, regardless of Gamma's alignment. There's no reasoning why that doesn't make Gamma scum.

205 I again dislike from Vedith. S_S had a clearly expressed scumread on Gamma and possibly on DEO (started with DEO then dropped that in favour of thinking Gamma was the most likely scum on his wagon). I don't like the off-handed dismissal of Gamma being scum without any reason why at all. The reads on Rach and Kuroi are again both dismissive and indicate he doesn't want to read them. Then the characterization of drealmerz in order to justify a scumread there as though people can't have quieter games pings me. The last two lines "The rest, who knows as of yet? Now your turn." comes across as grandstanding. Like he's trying to make a point of "I've been pro-town here".

Thanks for that. Yeah actually 205 pings me really hard. I'd be fine with Vax I think.

My problem is that I've been interrogating Gamma in our PT and he always find really vague and unhelpful ways to answer all of my questions. I've been asking as many, specific, questions as possible, but I can't get a single thing out of him that isn't ridiculously generic. And with Titus apparently wanting to use him to pass messages to me because RC would ~never~ put two scum in a 3p neighbourhood, keeping him alive could be potentially disastrous if Titus starts giving him important role info or some bullshit.

Then don't tell him anything useful. I don't think Titus is likely to derp that hard.
We also don't know boring's alignment, and I can't see a pro-town reason for her flip to be hidden and no one to have outed themselves as the culprit yet. This means it was either scum or her own role. The way she was talking to me indicates that she actually thought she was going to flip. I think it's more than likely that boring was actually town, and scum janitored the flip in order to hide that fact so we'd mislynch Lycan. drealmerz fucked it on them by shooting him.

The way I'm seeing it:
Gamma may or may not be scum, but if he is, then it's most probable that his partner is Vaxkiller anyway. If he isn't then that was scum whiteknighting town.
I'd rather go for the one I have more confidence in flipping scum with either scenario.

Spoiler: D1 VCs

Votecount 1.02:

The DEO (2):

Shadow_Step

, KuroiXHF
ɀefiend (2): Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald (1): Clemency
Clemency (1): The DEO

Not Voting: Postie, drealmerz7, RachMarie, Creature, Vedith, ɀefiend, Klingoncelt, Deimos27,

LycanFire

, Creeps20

With 15 alive it takes 8 votes to lynch.

Votecount 1.03:

The DEO (2):

Shadow_Step

, KuroiXHF
ɀefiend (2): Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald (1): Clemency

Shadow_Step

(1): The DEO

Not Voting: Postie, drealmerz7, RachMarie, Creature, Vedith, ɀefiend, Klingoncelt, Deimos27,

LycanFire

, Creeps20

Votecount 1.04:

The DEO (2):

Shadow_Step

, KuroiXHF
Clemency (2): Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald (1): Clemency

Shadow_Step

(1): The DEO
Creature (1): RachMarie

Not Voting: Postie, drealmerz7,, Creature, Vedith, ɀefiend, Klingoncelt, Deimos27,

LycanFire

, Creeps20

Votecount 1.06:

Shadow_Step

(6): The DEO, Creature, Creeps20, drealmerz7, Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency,

Shadow_Step

The DEO (1): KuroiXHF
Creature (1): RachMarie

Not Voting: Postie, Vedith, ɀefiend, Klingoncelt, Deimos27,

LycanFire

Votecount 1.07:

Shadow_Step

(6): The DEO, Creature, Creeps20, drealmerz7, Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency,

Shadow_Step

The DEO (1): KuroiXHF
Creature (1): RachMarie

Not Voting: Postie, Vedith, ɀefiend, Klingoncelt, Deimos27,

LycanFire

Votecount 1.08:

Shadow_Step

(5): The DEO, Creature, Creeps20, drealmerz7, Klingoncelt
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency,

Shadow_Step

, Deimos27
Postie (2): Gamma Emerald
The DEO (1): KuroiXHF
Creature (1): RachMarie

Not Voting: Postie, Vedith, ɀefiend,

LycanFire

Votecount 1.09:

Shadow_Step

(5): The DEO, Creature, Creeps20, drealmerz7, Klingoncelt
Gamma Emerald (3): Clemency,

Shadow_Step

, Deimos27
Postie (2): Gamma Emerald
The DEO (1): KuroiXHF
Creature (1): RachMarie

Not Voting: Postie, Vedith, ɀefiend,

LycanFire

Votecount 1.10:

Shadow_Step

(5): The DEO, Creature, Creeps20, drealmerz7, Klingoncelt
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (2): Vedith,

Shadow_Step

Postie (2): Gamma Emerald
The DEO (1): KuroiXHF
Creature (1): RachMarie

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend,

LycanFire

Votecount 1.11:

Shadow_Step

(5): The DEO, Creature, Creeps20, drealmerz7, Klingoncelt
Postie (3): Gamma Emerald, RachMarie
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (2): Vedith,

Shadow_Step

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend,

LycanFire

, KuroiXHF

Votecount 1.15:

Shadow_Step

(4): The DEO, Creature, Creeps20, drealmerz7
RachMarie (3): KuroiXHF, Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (2): Vedith,

Shadow_Step

Postie (1): RachMarie
Vedith (1):

LycanFire

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend, Klingoncelt

Votecount 1.18:

RachMarie (3): KuroiXHF, Gamma Emerald
Postie (3): RachMarie, Creature, Creeps20

Shadow_Step

(2): The DEO, drealmerz7
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (2): Vedith,

Shadow_Step

Vedith (1):

LycanFire

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend, Klingoncelt

Votecount 1.19:

RachMarie (4): KuroiXHF, Gamma Emerald, The DEO
Postie (3): RachMarie, Creature, Creeps20
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (2): Vedith,

Shadow_Step

Vedith (1):

LycanFire

Shadow_Step

(1): drealmerz7

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend, Klingoncelt

Votecount 1.20:

Creature (3): KuroiXHF, Gamma Emerald
Postie (3): RachMarie, Creature, Creeps20
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (2): Vedith,

Shadow_Step

Vedith (1):

LycanFire

Shadow_Step

(1): drealmerz7
RachMarie (1): The DEO

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend, Klingoncelt

Votecount 1.21:

Creature (3): KuroiXHF, Gamma Emerald
Postie (3): RachMarie, Creature, Creeps20
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (2): Vedith,

Shadow_Step

Vedith (1):

LycanFire

Shadow_Step

(1): drealmerz7
RachMarie (1): The DEO

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend, Klingoncelt

Votecount 1.23:

Creature (3): KuroiXHF, Gamma Emerald
Postie (2): RachMarie, Creature
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (2):

Shadow_Step

, Vedith

Shadow_Step

(2): drealmerz7, Creeps20
Vedith (1):

LycanFire

RachMarie (1): The DEO

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend, Klingoncelt

Votecount 1.25:

Creature (3): KuroiXHF, Gamma Emerald

Shadow_Step

(3): drealmerz7, Creeps20, The DEO
Postie (2): RachMarie, Creature
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (2):

Shadow_Step

, Vedith
Vedith (1):

LycanFire

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend, Klingoncelt

Votecount 1.27:

Shadow_Step

(7): drealmerz7, Creeps20, The DEO, Gamma Emerald, Creature, Klingoncelt
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (2):

Shadow_Step

, Vedith
Postie (1): RachMarie
Creature (1): KuroiXHF
Vedith (1):

LycanFire

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend

Votecount 1.28:

KillTheStory

(7): drealmerz7, Creeps20, The DEO, Gamma Emerald, Creature, Klingoncelt
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (2):

KillTheStory

, Vedith
Postie (1): RachMarie
Creature (1): KuroiXHF
Vedith (1):

LycanFire

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend

Votecount 1.30:

KillTheStory

(4): drealmerz7, Creeps20, The DEO, Creature
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (2):

KillTheStory

, Vedith
Postie (1): RachMarie
Creature (1): KuroiXHF
Vedith (1):

LycanFire

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend, Gamma Emerald, Klingoncelt

Votecount 1.32:

KillTheStory

(4): drealmerz7, Creeps20, The DEO, RachMarie
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (1): Vedith
Creature (1): KuroiXHF
Vedith (1):

LycanFire

KuroiXHF (1):

KillTheStory

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend, Gamma Emerald, Klingoncelt, Creature

Votecount 1.33:

KillTheStory

(5): drealmerz7, Creeps20, The DEO, RachMarie, Creature
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (1): Vedith
Creature (1): KuroiXHF
Vedith (1):

LycanFire

KuroiXHF (1):

KillTheStory

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend, Gamma Emerald, Klingoncelt

Votecount 1.35:

KillTheStory

(6): drealmerz7, Creeps20, The DEO, RachMarie, Creature, Klingoncelt
Vedith (3):

LycanFire

, Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (1): Vedith
Creature (1): KuroiXHF
KuroiXHF (1):

KillTheStory

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend

Votecount 1.36:

KillTheStory

(9): drealmerz7, The DEO, RachMarie, Creature, Klingoncelt,

LycanFire

, Creeps20, Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (1): Vedith
Creature (1): KuroiXHF
KuroiXHF (1):

KillTheStory

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend

Votecount 1.37:

KillTheStory

(9): drealmerz7, The DEO, RachMarie, Creature, Klingoncelt,

LycanFire

, Creeps20, Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald (2): Clemency, Deimos27
drealmersz7 (1): Vedith
Creature (1): KuroiXHF
KuroiXHF (1):

KillTheStory

Not Voting: Postie, ɀefiend

So on D1 both Kuroi and Vedith stay off KTS and I don't think they joined a proper counterwagon.
Clemency's vote doesn't move from RVS, and Deimos voted on Gamma at a time that made him a counterwagon to Shadow_Step early I think? Then also ends up voteparked (went on vacation though).
Then we have Lycanfire for the most part voteparking on Vedith, which I thought was interesting given the kill, but now less so given it's claimed to be a vig shot.

Gamma's vote makes reading the VC movements kinda hard because it skews the balance. :/ Especially so given I don't think I'm particularly good at this in any case. Anyways...

So we have Postie and RachMarie as competing wagons for a bit when the Shadow_Step wagon died out. Postie got voted up after RachMarie hit the 2nd highest wagon mark in competition with Shadow_Step. Unfortunately without knowing what RM's alignment was there's not much to be drawn from that I think? If RM!scum it would point to Postie!town but I don't believe it necessarily works in the reverse (as in RM!town making Postie!scum) as from what I remember of it, the wagon on RM was pretty well justified whereas the wagon on Postie wasn't, and was in fact based off a rubbish "scumslip" push.
Becomes Creature and Postie for a bit but mainly because of Gamma voting Creature.
Creeps moves back to Shadow_Step, DEO follows, then the wagon is active again.
KTS wagon dies down a bit when he replaces in, he votes Kuroi and wagon starts trickling back. I'd kind of expect it to happen a lot faster if Kuroi were scum here and KTS correctly fingered him?
Vedith hits 3 votes from Gamma's influence and Lycanfire moves over to KTS.

So my thoughts on D1: Vedith was staying off the wagons too much. I don't like it, and I think he's a good candidate for scum based on that also.
Kuroi did the same but again, I'd kind of expect the KTS wagon to have exploded if he was correctly fingering Kuroi there, rather than a gradual incline. I need to double check the actual votes and reasonings for them individually to see if everything holds up to my thoughts of this (macro to micro blah blah blah).
Creature and Creeps have awful records with regards to voting and reasonings for doing so as far as the S_S and Postie wagons but I'm not entirely sure that's AI for them, either.

Also, on D2 Vedith voteparks Lycanfire. That's a thing that happened.

[ɀefiend]

the ethics of tactics

Actually I don't remember you telling anyone about this at all. If you have, please point me to it, otherwise I want to know

exactly

what you think of MathBlade supposedly doing this.

I mentioned that I have witnessed people do some pretty unbelievable stuff to win mafia games.

Anything within the confines of the rules -- I don't put it past anyone on this site. Like kuroi said, I don't see anything besides your convictions that show MathBlade couldn't fake their push against lycan.

[drealmerz7]

I really think vax is town - the Ttyll game I was in with him he played the exact same way and it's not a meta-read it's just a "that's him making crap cases as town" - I suppose I should go find some links from that game of posts he made similar to posts here and how scummybadtown they are

What's stopping him from playing the same way as scum?

well it doesn't seem plausible to me - you have to have an awareness to do this and if as town he's only a mediocre player he's not even going to recognize how or have the ability to replicate that mediocrity of his town game as scum

[JaeReed]

Maybe if you tried looking at the motivation of their pushes rather than how hard they pushed it and what was pushed on you'd figure out that they're town >.>

[drealmerz7]

I wouldn't think

"oh yeah as town I make cases that are weak based on far-fetched things because I like to seem like I know what I'm doing and really figured something deep out and so I have to pretend to do that as scum"

no, if you have that awareness, your town game improves, I think?

[JaeReed]

I really think vax is town - the Ttyll game I was in with him he played the exact same way and it's not a meta-read it's just a "that's him making crap cases as town" - I suppose I should go find some links from that game of posts he made similar to posts here and how scummybadtown they are

What's stopping him from playing the same way as scum?

well it doesn't seem plausible to me - you have to have an awareness to do this and if as town he's only a mediocre player he's not even going to recognize how or have the ability to replicate that mediocrity of his town game as scum

What?

You're arguing "as town he looks like scum but would need awareness as scum to look like scum"?

What Postie is saying is if he's bad town what is stopping him from being bad scum here? He could just look like scum regardless of alignment. That's something you can certainly factor in but in the end you have to look at the motivation. When I asked you about what you thought of my bit on his predecessor you ignored me. There's more to it than "Vaxkiller looks scummy".