Open 669 - Nightless Vengeful Mayhem [Game Over]

[mozamis]

so scum is in: UD, Lucca, Superhans, Revan, Fitz. Ok thats over half the playerlist but still!
Doom stop voting town!
We need town united.

[mozamis]

VOTE: Friend Computer

Think this is L-1

Superhans is scummy, anyone trying to divert us off the Sesq/FC wagons with WIFOM nonsense is scummy.

This actually looks quite town to me. It's bold, it's out here, it's not blending in.

[mozamis]

So for time being UD is going into "null-town". as in, not quite my unlynchable town block, but i'd rather look elsewhere for now.
So sum in: Lucca, Superhans, revan, Fitz.
And lucca's last post seemed quite reasonable and attempting to catch scum (although i think he's wrong in his conclusion).
So scum is Superhans, Revan, Fitz.
Game solved lol
Although joking aside, why the fuck not?

[mozamis]

UNVOTE

Looking at his ISO,
Superhans look scummier than Fitz. I mean, Fitz could just be scum trying harder than Superhans.
But superhans ISO is eally weak. Not many reads and a lot of fluffy, theory bollocks.

VOTE SUPERHANS

Basically I am up for lynching revan or superhans.
I'm unsure about the last scum. Could be Fitz but his ISO is quite strong...

[mozamis]

superhans/revan team makes sense for panic dk day 1?

[Revan]

You can't scumread the both of us.

[lucca261]

why?

[Revan]

I guess you'll can, if you think I'd bus Super as scumz

[Ultimate Despair]

Sesq was an awful shot what the heck.

Anyway, we've got 3 town deaths so it's time to reread the game again and draw associative tells. I'm a little behind due to exams but I'll get a good ammount in this weekend.

I'm a bit torn on this. WG had pushed against the Sesq wagon, including making an explicit town read there, but hadn't really put the kind of major effort into eliminating it that might have actually convinced FC to not shoot Sesq in the event that he flipped town. I guess it's probably ok in the context of him having actually expressed a TR there, even if it's the sort of thing that didn't relaly need to be said or do much good.

-M

[Superhans]

UNVOTE

Looking at his ISO,
Superhans look scummier than Fitz. I mean, Fitz could just be scum trying harder than Superhans.
But superhans ISO is eally weak. Not many reads and a lot of fluffy, theory bollocks.

VOTE SUPERHANS

Basically I am up for lynching revan or superhans.
I'm unsure about the last scum. Could be Fitz but his ISO is quite strong...

ISO Revan and you'll want to swap your vote. Revans ISO is 100% fluff.

[Superhans]

Also y is Doom now guaranteed town?

[Ultimate Despair]

My Superhans vote was because I'm not townreading him.

The Sesq flip does strengthen my read on him, because it narrows down my lynchpool.

That's a pretty weak reason to be voting someone though, barring a strong set of confident town reads. Do you in fact have such a set of townreads? I don't think i've seen you discussing your town reads in such a way as to justify essentially POE-voting elsewhere.

didnt really like Fitz's opening post.
he seemed a bit oo knowledgeable "Not many scum on that lynch, i dont think".
This is not a "we must lynch fitz now" vote.
It IS a "he MIGHT be scum, lets get some pressure on him vote".

vote HAVINGFITZ

ps sorry sesq

What is the point of a pressure vote if you're admitting to it being pressure as you vote?

They say that Mozamis is a scumlean for him. They say that Superhans is scummy. He votes for Friend. They says that anyone distracting people from the Sesq wagon is scummy. I believe they think that Revan is scummy too.

That alone are five scumreads. Potentially more when they are talking about the wagon.

This, together with the fact that UD haven't responded to my case on them, especially when they are such an active player, makes me think that UD is scum.

Why do you think it's scum-indicative to have a bunch of scumreads?

What part of your case in particular did you think we weren't responding to? I don't think we'd responded to 476 but had responded to earlier items. wrt 476 in partiuclar, I'm a bit surprised that you had at that point stated that associations made us scum if sesq was scum (due to us "wanting off the wagon"), but now that sesq flipped town, we're still scum for... reasons? Like you now say you felt like we knew that FC/Sesq were both flipping town, but don't support that beyond "UD has a bunch of scumreads", which is pretty much a non sequitur to the theory that somehow we knew FC/Sesq were flipping town.

I guess I'd like a clearer theory from you about what exactly your'e seeing from us that makes us scummy at this point, because I'm having trouble following your thought process.

superhans/revan team makes sense for panic dk day 1?

Not sure. FC/Sesq both being town screws with my gmae state read, trying to wrap my head around how it makes sense given those flips.

I guess you'll can, if you think I'd bus Super as scumz

Why wouldn't you bus Super as scum? The day 1 environment would have been fantastic for distancing, since FC/Sesq were pretty much always the likeliest wagons to go through after the dayvig, which means that you can potentially get a lot of value on a push on a buddy at that point. What exactly about that disqualifies such a pairing, especially with daychat to coordinate and discuss?

-M

[doomfeathers]

Nuts. I was hoping to draw scum hoping for a mislynch on a valuable player. Oh, well. (Not that I blame you guys for refuting my faulty reasoning.)

UNVOTE: MagnaofIllusion

@wgeurts: If you didn't want Sesq dead, why didn't you say something when we were wagoning her?

[Ultimate Despair]

Prodge. Haven't caught up yet, but me and Mukuro both think Revan is a promising lead.

[Ultimate Despair]

@Doom,
Sesq didn't look all too much like scum in my opinion, but he's dead so it's irrelevant now anyways. I had him as someone we should have kept alive until later, if anyone I would have shot one of the wildcards such as Revan to avoid awkward scenarios later.

Not game relevant but I think Sesq is a she

[Revan]

Super hand attacking me instead of defending himself is terrible.

This is scum, let's do this now.

[havingfitz]

Doom...you've claimed to have went for reaction tests at least twice now. Do you do that a lot and has it ever paid dividends for you?

Also...can you explain why you say Magna is valuable to town?

[havingfitz]

(is Fitz okay?)

Sure.

[karnos]

Vote Count 2.2

Superhans

(2): Revan, mozamis

Ultimate Despair

(1): lucca261

Not Voting

(6): havingfitz, Ultimate Despair, MagnaofIllusion, wgeurts, Superhans, doomfeathers

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

(expired on 2017-02-04 09:00:01) until deadline.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok back from V/LA …

First thing I have done in my re-read was to look over Hawk’s ISO. Because now that we know both FC and Sesq were Town I wanted to see where his suspicions lay. Based on his ISO I’d say the strongest candidates just are Moz (149) and Doom (multiple votes during the Day). Nothing I’d base a case on but a good reminder.

--

My Superhans vote was because I'm not townreading him.

Looking at his ISO,
Superhans look scummier than Fitz. I mean, Fitz could just be scum trying harder than Superhans.
But superhans ISO is eally weak. Not many reads and a lot of fluffy, theory bollocks.

Both of you need to explain why Hans as scum would go out of his way to be bothered about his (incorrect) perception that I was trying to tie him to FC and Sesq given both were Town.

--

I actually thought someone might use that comment as a negative (I can't recall the name of the tell) but I'm surprised it's you. If you're town your radar needs calibrated.

It is a variant on the “Congratulate the Doc” tell – your reaction was effectively “Man that was bad for Town” which is understood. It is superfluous (obviously both players being Town is bad for Town) that only serves to show how LAMIST your feelings are.

Your followup at 541 furthers my suspicion. You attempted to buddy up to me pretty hard Day 1 (yes, I noticed) but the second I look askance at you there is an undercurrent of “Hmmm, MoI could be scum” in your posting.

--

Alright doom is town, and you'll have to lynch me before I tolerate someone going after him.

Please elaborate on why you feel Doom is “so Town” based on those posts / interactions.

--

This actually looks quite town to me. It's bold, it's out here, it's not blending in.

Please elaborate what about an “Here’s an L-1, oops hammer” vote by UD looks quite Town.

superhans/revan team makes sense for panic dk day 1?

No, not at all. Neither were under significant pressure that would justify blowing a limited resource Daykill that early.

[Revan]

He would try to tie you down to try and get you mislynched.

Or to try to appear town, that's what makes the most sense.

[karnos]

Apologies for anyone who saw before the last edit, I was trying a vote counter and it didn't catch all the votes correctly, the previous vote count (2.2) should be accurate now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

He would try to tie you down to try and get you mislynched.

Or to try to appear town, that's what makes the most sense.

Given that he immediately revoked his accusation after I called him out the first explanation doesn't hold water.

As to "appearing Town" - why do you think that looks like a Town move?

[havingfitz]

First thing I have done in my re-read was to look over Hawk's ISO. Because now that we know both FC and Sesq were Town I wanted to see where his suspicions lay. Based on his ISO I'd say the strongest candidates just are Moz (149) and Doom (multiple votes during the Day). Nothing I'd base a case on but a good reminder.

Curious...were there any others you noticed potentially benefitting from the Hawk dayvig?

I actually thought someone might use that comment as a negative (I can't recall the name of the tell) but I'm surprised it's you. If you're town your radar needs calibrated.

It is a variant on the "Congratulate the Doc" tell - your reaction was effectively "Man that was bad for Town" which is understood. It is superfluous (obviously both players being Town is bad for Town) that only serves to show how LAMIST your feelings are.

That tell name didn't sound familiar so I had to look. It's also called the "Wow that sucks" tell. Whatever the name...I knew that sort of opening comment was considered scummy by some but I wasn't too concerned because:

1) I wasn't NOT going to say what I was thinking because of it, and
2) I was curious if anyone would make a big deal out of it.

Do you, MOI, put a lot of credence in well-known standard tells?
Have there been any other tells that have caught your eye? WRT the one you accuse me of...it seems like a few other people lamented the D1/N1 outcome as well. Do you find those comments a negative also?

Your followup at 541 furthers my suspicion. You attempted to buddy up to me pretty hard Day 1 (yes, I noticed) but the second I look askance at you there is an undercurrent of "Hmmm, MoI could be scum" in your posting.

By buddying you "pretty hard" do you mean my initial catch up post were I state agreement with two of your early posts (27 or 46, or saying I like you for town?
Was I buddying Hawk too in that same post when I said I thought he was town?

Or perhaps in my continuation catchup post when I grumble over lucca's assessment of your post 27 that I had just previously stated agreement with? Was that buddying on top of buddying?

Surely you didn't see my [sarcasm]postquotefail response[/sarcasm] to you in Post 380 as buddying?

I'm not seeing any "pretty hard" buddying towards you but I'm guessing that's another standard tell you've uncovered towards me. I'll remember if I'm ever scum (or town for that matter) in a game with you to not agree with anything you say.
Do you see anyone else buddying you "pretty hard." Ex. Doom w/"valuable to town" or Revan w/"you'd be a mislynch" to paraphrase two just from memory.

As for the undercurrent you refer to...if FC and Sesq had flipped town and one of them was the mafia's dayvig I'd have anointed you the Mayor of Towny Town. But as they did not...you are most certainly in the "could be scum" category. Along with everyone else not named havingfitz. Also...my post 541 which you link to above with your concerns is not a negative towards you in any way. It is merely trying to understand Doom's comment that you are "valuable to town." Aren't you curious why he would say that given your curiosity in the similar comments made here:

Alright doom is town, and you'll have to lynch me before I tolerate someone going after him.

Please elaborate on why you feel Doom is "so Town" based on those posts / interactions.

This actually looks quite town to me. It's bold, it's out here, it's not blending in.

Please elaborate what about an "Here's an L-1, oops hammer" vote by UD looks quite Town.

I mean...I love being townread as much as the next person but if you are going to call someone out for thinking you were town (i.e. me)...why not question everyone who does so?

[Revan]

Why doesn't it hold water? He could've been trying for a mislynch, but then realized it was going to be really hard so then he went back on it.