Open 669 - Nightless Vengeful Mayhem [Game Over]

[Ultimate Despair]

...

This is objectively wrong by the way. "Oh it's twilight let's wait and sit on our hands to see what the flip is" is utterly useless behavior. His hammer looked suss, and I pushed him on it. It is BETTER to make that kind of push in an environment where it's unknown what the flip would be; see who seems confident that it was still scum, see who might know it's town and potentially out themselves in the discussion. Of course our mod decided to quick post the flip and end that possibility (which is kind of annoying btw), but that's a productive environment for that line of enquiry.
Ps what about the hammer seemed especially genuine to you? And what about my enquiry, other than the fact of its existence, seemed knowing?

My god if you are Town this is terrible, terrible posting. Hans’s hammer is presented exactly as yours was Day 1 – “Oops I thought that was an L-1 vote”. The cognitive dissonance flowing from your slot is bad if you are suggesting that hammer was sketchy (and possibly scum) and yours came from Town.
Furthermore the only player who “outed” that they might know Moz was flipping Town was you. So floating “I was looking for scum” netted yourself as the only viable suspect. Floating that you were obv-Town for doing so is just plain bad.

Is this a joke or what?

1)

Floating that you were obv-Town for doing so is just plain bad.

Citations DESPERATELY needed for that nonsense. Fitz suggested in 897 (what I responded to) that I somehow slipped knowledge that Moz was town, and that the reason I slipped knowledge was that I'd pushed hans in twilight (i.e. not anything where the nature of my posting or questioning seemed knowing, but rather the mere EXISTENCE of my questioning suggested that I knew the flip in advance). That is utterly garbage reasoning, and the post that you quoted explained why it was bullshit.

You are also ignoring the POTENTIAL for said questioning to have outed knowledge of a flip. That no one outed any such knowledge is not meaningful, because the mod shut down that possibility by quick-flipping (fwiw, as a mod I have an unofficial policy of keeping twilight open at least 30 minutes even if I see a hammer, because people SHOULD have some amount of time to react, and "is the mod around right now" is kind of a crappy luck element to dump into a game).

So telling me that no one outed themselves in the questioning process, and pretending that this means anything at all, is ridiculous. No one did anything at all in response to my push before the flip, so the fact that no one outed themselves in the process is not just meaningless but OBVIOUSLY meaningless.

2) What cognitive dissonance? Ignore for a second that it was my hydra partner who couldn't count (blah blah hydra dissonance as if that means anything in this context), and explain to me why one person derp-hammering AFTER ANOTHER PERSON DERP-HAMMERED AND IT WAS PUBLICLY DISCUSSED (and hans was sufficiently involved in the game that he couldn't have missed that it had been a point of discussion) is not itself worth pushing and questioning.

Hans, if town, ignored the fact that derp-hammering already happened (and the normal town process after it had been discussed would be to be more careful with voting), AND the fact that a mere two posts above his own vote, someone else dumped in a vote (and a sub who had just come in and cast a flagrantly sheeping vote at that), and basically just said "yeah fuck it I'm voting there". That is a questionable town process and should always be questioned (regardless of moz flip by the way). Giving me shit about questioning him for it is ridiculous.

3) For the record, if you want to talk about empty twilight posting

And now we wait for a flip ...

would be a solid example. "Hey, look at me, I don't know whether moz is scum and I sure hope I get a flip soon". Talk about stuff that didn't need to be said, that has no merit in advancing the game, and is lazy posting as town or LAMIST if scum.

...
Given that these were all on the same page, can you explain how you failed to realize that your vote was hammer?
-M

Especially given that a hammer screwup had already happened this game, and had been discussed?
-M

is a pair of posts that COULD come from scum pretending to scum-hunt, but is at least substantively useful since it's an actual question. Since you seem interested in looking at peoples' twilight posts, why don't you tell us what the point of posting your twilight fluff was? Are you normally that lazy in twilight?

4) Now that I've further explained my process, please justify

My god if you are Town this is terrible, terrible posting.

since that's very clearly not the case

-M

[Superhans]

also I don't see you trying to pair together three scum in far more cases you're also only linking partners.

[Superhans]

at MOI, can you give an example from your ISO when you mention 3 mafia potential pairings over 2 mafia potential pairings.

[Superhans]

lol i meant @MOI

[Ultimate Despair]

again, the tone: "I'm better than you and never make mistakes."

1) so the two people were doom, who already stated he didn't mean that and magna on the middle of D2? okay.

2) it's not a strong post just for the scumslip stuff. it's a strong post because he's looking for scum and his views on posts reminds me of things I was thinking when I was reading them. he is viewing stuff from a town point of view. also, scum make a lot of mistakes. if scum didn't, there would be no way to scumhunt them, and that could be a possible mistake on your part.

3) do you think I'm town?

Actually the tone is "stop wasting my time with meaningless bullshit". Probably inherent in that is "I'm better than you", which, for the record, is a fairly obvious and common town tell, unless you think I'm doing it in a way that suggests that I'm just scum gloating (and you DEFINITELY need citations if you want to sell that one). I don't think I ever claimed to never make mistakes (among other things, I've been on two town lynch wagons, so obv this isn't my greatest game ever), but if you want to argue that I'm showing off my ego, sure. Probably am. Now if you think I'm scum, argue why it's scummy instead of villagery.

1) Magna asked me two stupid questions and then voted me apparently because I didn't answer his stupid questions. Doom already acknowledged that it was reasonable to read his question in the way I did. And yes, that's two people. What's your point here?

2) His actual argument is dumb though. Given that his argument is dumb, the question is whether he believes it. Do you believe that he believes it? Why or why not?

3) Not sure. Do you think you've done something strongly indicative this game? You've produced content, which is itself something somewhat positive, but I don't know why you deserve to be a strong read in either direction. If I've missed something important wrt your alignment, feel free to enlighten me.

-M

[doomfeathers]

No matter who we scumread, we seem to agree that scum are somewhere in (Superhans, Revan, UD). Why don't we lynch one of these more scumread players? That way, we're more likely to hit scum, so we'll have more breathing room while going after others.

You do realize that it's MYLO right? One mislynch = game over? This seems like a bizarrely relaxed perspective given the game state. Do you think it's SH/Revan/us exactly? Are you somehow not concerned about picking wrong in that group? If the latter, please explain why you're not concerned about what could potentially be a game-ending decision.
-M

I'm just saying that everyone seems to agree that there is scum in that group, so we're more likely to hit scum if we lynch from this pool. Yes, it's still important that we pick the right lynch.

@lucca216: The "threatening" thing was a Monsters, Inc. quote that I couldn't resist sticking in. I know you're not really threatening me.

@MoI: Are you ready to state your reasons for actually threatening Revan yet?

Is Superhans' jump onto the Magna wagon opportunistism or townish paranoia? Is it possible that Magna looks to scum like a possible mislynch, or that scum just don't want to be on any real wagons at the moment?

No matter who we scumread, we seem to agree that scum are somewhere in (Superhans, Revan, UD). Why don't we lynch one of these more scumread players? That way, we're more likely to hit scum, so we'll have more breathing room while going after others.

You're still hard town reading MOI, I'm guessing?

I'm analyzing.

Maybe Superhans is scum but he's not today's lynch for reasons that I will get into. That's a good catch but don't vote him or condone anyone else doing so.

Interesting. Will you reveal your reasoning if I push the button?

[Nahdia_Superfan]

No, I will vote you until you unvote. I am only asking for 24 hours here and there's no real deadline. Give me my time.

[Superhans]

we don't have a deadline Doom, no serious time pressure.

[doomfeathers]

Probably inherent in that is "I'm better than you", which, for the record, is a fairly obvious and common town tell.

I'm not seeing the reasoning here. Could you explain it? I've read a lot on the wiki, and I've never come across anything like that.

Doom already acknowledged that it was reasonable to read his question in the way I did.

No, I didn't. I merely acknowledged your clarification.

No, I will vote you until you unvote. I am only asking for 24 hours here and there's no real deadline. Give me my time.

I missed where you asked for 24 hours. I'm fine with that.

[Superhans]

No matter who we scumread, we seem to agree that scum are somewhere in (Superhans, Revan, UD). Why don't we lynch one of these more scumread players? That way, we're more likely to hit scum, so we'll have more breathing room while going after others.

You do realize that it's MYLO right? One mislynch = game over? This seems like a bizarrely relaxed perspective given the game state. Do you think it's SH/Revan/us exactly? Are you somehow not concerned about picking wrong in that group? If the latter, please explain why you're not concerned about what could potentially be a game-ending decision.
-M

I'm just saying that everyone seems to agree that there is scum in that group, so we're more likely to hit scum if we lynch from this pool. Yes, it's still important that we pick the right lynch.

But why have to narrow it down to those there players at all? Whats the point in restricting ourselves?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Citations DESPERATELY needed for that nonsense

Do you think just throwing insults helps you? It doesn’t …

The scum motivation for me to draw attention to myself my pushing Hans there before the flip is at most wifom, while the town motivation is obvious. "

Gee that wasn’t hard to find was it? Your implication and inference here is “My behavior is obvious Town because there is at best only WIFOM on why my scum motivation was”. Words have meaning and just because you didn’t string together the exact phrase “I’m obvious Town” doesn’t mean you didn’t make that claim via inference in your posting.

You are also ignoring the POTENTIAL for said questioning to have outed knowledge of a flip. That no one outed any such knowledge is not meaningful, because the mod shut down that possibility by quick-flipping (fwiw, as a mod I have an unofficial policy of keeping twilight open at least 30 minutes even if I see a hammer, because people SHOULD have some amount of time to react, and "is the mod around right now" is kind of a crappy luck element to dump into a game).

So your premise is that you’d as Town call the lynch (which you were on) into question in hopes of eliciting scum to post so as to incriminate themselves. Yet why couldn’t Town do the same? I mean – your whole premise is that you yourself are Town who specifically called the hammer into question. So why couldn’t your “tricksy trap” catch another Town player who had a Town read on Moz instead of scum? The fact that you are ignoring this possibility shows stunning cognitive dissonance.

Again – the fact that the second a hammer was throw you immediately went on the offensive against the hammerer on a wagon yhou were on seems pretty damn suspect.

2) What cognitive dissonance? Ignore for a second that it was my hydra partner who couldn't count (blah blah hydra dissonance as if that means anything in this context), and explain to me why one person derp-hammering AFTER ANOTHER PERSON DERP-HAMMERED AND IT WAS PUBLICLY DISCUSSED (and hans was sufficiently involved in the game that he couldn't have missed that it had been a point of discussion) is not itself worth pushing and questioning.

Cognitive Dissonance can be boiled down to the following – when someone’s actions contradict their own stated beliefs it is a sign they are lying. I don’t recall anyone saying that said hammer wasn’t worth discussing. Yet you are suggesting you are Town who made a mistake (or in this case trying to apply Hydra Dissonance as an excuse) but your stance is that Hans can’t be Town who made the same mistake. The Dissonance is clear – you did exactly what Hans did yet can’t apparently see any reason why it couldn’t be the same supposed Town mistake you made.

The whole paragraph below outlines this –

Hans, if town, ignored the fact that derp-hammering already happened (and the normal town process after it had been discussed would be to be more careful with voting), AND the fact that a mere two posts above his own vote, someone else dumped in a vote (and a sub who had just come in and cast a flagrantly sheeping vote at that), and basically just said "yeah fuck it I'm voting there". That is a questionable town process and should always be questioned (regardless of moz flip by the way). Giving me shit about questioning him for it is ridiculous.

And your “Hey, want to talk about empty twilight posting” follow-up is weak. Specifically you are saying “You were not drawing conclusions before there was more information”. Well, duh. Until the Mod flipped Moz there was no information to be had. Again – the only person in a position to draw conclusions about the lynch itself (and Hans’s hammer) were the Mafia who know Moz was flipping Town. Your “EMPTY TWILIGHT POSTING GRAAAAA” stance only serves to try to turn the focus away from that fact and keep yourself from being on the defensive.

[Ultimate Despair]

I'm not seeing the reasoning here. Could you explain it? I've read a lot on the wiki, and I've never come across anything like that.

Tone reading. I'll reference
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p8468554
as an example, specifically the section

...
Cron was working super hard at developing his reads and he had the proper emotional investment in what he was doing. I don't feel like pulling up his posts to cite specific examples, so let's just talk again about the Trundle thing.

He soulreads a guy as a wolf based on one post and has four reasons for it, and he's super proud of himself and patting himself on the back for it. Wolves aren't trying that hard to develop quick reads and they tend to struggle to come up with that level of insight and they aren't good at getting the subtle emotions right. And his whole day was full of things like that. Cron has played several wolf games on this site and his posting was bland and forgettable each time

.

…

I don't have time to adequately respond to that post but one thing I can say quickly is that when I'm talking about emotions, I'm specifically excluding anger. It's the easiest emotion to fake and it's one that is often not alignment-indicative even when it is genuine, unless it can be traced to an origin in something distinctly villagery.

Emotions like pride, paranoia, surprise, suspicion, etc, are more difficult to fake. Wolves often fail to even identify spots in which emotion should be present in their posting, and their efforts at actually displaying more complex emotions are often quite clumsy, for example by stating their supposed feelings rather than displaying them.

But in the case of Cron, a lot of what was clearing for him was just the sheer depth and breadth of his reads and interactions. It's just hard to fake that much content so quickly and make it sound good. And few wolves are ever going to stalk other players' online statuses in order to catch lurkers.

In general, emotions that genuinely flow through someone's postings are likelier to come from town, because town have an honest approach to the game and that includes proper emotional investment and reactions.

That's different than AtE, most notably because I'm talking about the emotion that comes naturally in someone's posting over the course of a game, not about emotion in response to getting pressure that could reasonably just be an attempt to dodge rope.

[Ultimate Despair]

Doom already acknowledged that it was reasonable to read his question in the way I did.

No, I didn't. I merely acknowledged your clarification.

Sorry for not being clearer earlier.

I didn't mean for you to have to quote all your posts about mozamis.

Either that was an empty apology or you understood that it was reasonable for me to have read your post in the way that i did. I presumed the latter.

-M

[lucca261]

@superhans - didn't you vote Magna first, hans? and when people give you shit for it you voted Revan? also, I'm not automatically reading Magna as town. I had a lot of thoughts about his slot at D1, and his play made me think he's town. I don't know what you see about his play.

@magna, 940: that's not true. I pushed Hans and Mozamis a lot. even Sesq. stop being paranoid. UD is scum.

@doom, 942: your play is starting to concern me. first you say: "hey, I'm worried that scum is slipping past me", then you say: "hey, let's just lynch the most common scumreads". these two statements together don't fit.

@magna, 947: this is why Magna is town. hey, considering this, what do you think of my Doom/Hans L-2/L-3 stuff?

@nahdia, 948: if hans is scum, lynch this.

[lucca261]

again, the tone: "I'm better than you and never make mistakes."

1) so the two people were doom, who already stated he didn't mean that and magna on the middle of D2? okay.

2) it's not a strong post just for the scumslip stuff. it's a strong post because he's looking for scum and his views on posts reminds me of things I was thinking when I was reading them. he is viewing stuff from a town point of view. also, scum make a lot of mistakes. if scum didn't, there would be no way to scumhunt them, and that could be a possible mistake on your part.

3) do you think I'm town?

Actually the tone is "stop wasting my time with meaningless bullshit". Probably inherent in that is "I'm better than you", which, for the record, is a fairly obvious and common town tell, unless you think I'm doing it in a way that suggests that I'm just scum gloating (and you DEFINITELY need citations if you want to sell that one). I don't think I ever claimed to never make mistakes (among other things, I've been on two town lynch wagons, so obv this isn't my greatest game ever), but if you want to argue that I'm showing off my ego, sure. Probably am. Now if you think I'm scum, argue why it's scummy instead of villagery.

1) Magna asked me two stupid questions and then voted me apparently because I didn't answer his stupid questions. Doom already acknowledged that it was reasonable to read his question in the way I did. And yes, that's two people. What's your point here?

2) His actual argument is dumb though. Given that his argument is dumb, the question is whether he believes it. Do you believe that he believes it? Why or why not?

3) Not sure. Do you think you've done something strongly indicative this game? You've produced content, which is itself something somewhat positive, but I don't know why you deserve to be a strong read in either direction. If I've missed something important wrt your alignment, feel free to enlighten me.

-M

and you say you're not disregarding stuff I post. I'm curious why you need to proclaim you as town in every single post that you make. it's always: "hey, this thing I did is obv-town", "hey, this thing I did is a town tell'. I'm saying you use this tone to disregard stuff that other people post about you. It's not just on me, it's on Magna as well. every time people accuse you, you start to say that you're better then than, and that you are obvtown.

1) it's just that it's curious you waited the start of D3 to answer magna "stupid" questions. you waited until they were a problem. if Magna/Doom hadn't pushed you about it, you wouldn't answer this.

2) again. the argument is dumb. I think he believes it. I think you're scum. He probably does as well. I'm reading him as town. I think he believes.

3) that is not my point. my point is that, if you're not sure I'm town, you saying: "3) stop looking for scumslips, start looking for actually scummy behavior. "Scumslips" are bullshit the bulk majority of the time and mainly an excuse fir lazy scumhunting." makes no sense. in this you assume I'm town 100%, not even considering I might be doing this for scum reasons. if you were town on this game, you wouldn't be so sure of my alignment.

[doomfeathers]

Doom already acknowledged that it was reasonable to read his question in the way I did.

No, I didn't. I merely acknowledged your clarification.

Sorry for not being clearer earlier.

I didn't mean for you to have to quote all your posts about mozamis.

Either that was an empty apology or you understood that it was reasonable for me to have read your post in the way that i did. I presumed the latter.

-M

Oops, misread. I must have skimmed it, because I thought you were talking about MoI's posting. Never mind. Sorry.

@doom, 942: your play is starting to concern me. first you say: "hey, I'm worried that scum is slipping past me", then you say: "hey, let's just lynch the most common scumreads". these two statements together don't fit.

Yes, I'm worried that scum is slipping past me. That's why I'm trying to be careful not to lynch someone others are not also scumreading. I figure that someone we all agree on is more likely to be scum. By this post, I was intending to caution us against lynching someone who might or might not be very good scum rather than someone who is most likely scum, if poor scum.

[lucca261]

FOS: UD

I'm sick of this bullshit. consider this a vote. they're scum.

[lucca261]

and his point about scumslips makes me think that he's scum caught from the wrong reasons, and now is fuckin' angry about it.

[Ultimate Despair]

Citations DESPERATELY needed for that nonsense

Do you think just throwing insults helps you? It doesn’t …

Your post was nonsense, I acknowledged it as such. I also justified why I saw it that way. Do you think just handwaving it away as "just throwing insults" helps you? It doesn't...

The scum motivation for me to draw attention to myself my pushing Hans there before the flip is at most wifom, while the town motivation is obvious. "

Gee that wasn’t hard to find was it? Your implication and inference here is “My behavior is obvious Town because there is at best only WIFOM on why my scum motivation was”. Words have meaning and just because you didn’t string together the exact phrase “I’m obvious Town” doesn’t mean you didn’t make that claim via inference in your posting.

Actually I was pointing out that scum-reading me for it was dumb. "The town motivation is obvious" means that there very obviously was potentially town motivation. Maybe I did do it for the WIFOM as scum. Maybe there was some other benefit that hasn't been discussed or isn't obvious. You're stretching here, especially since LITERALLY IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH (that you chose to cut off for whatever reason) I was making the point that fitz's argument was dumb, NOT the point that it made me obvtown.

You are also ignoring the POTENTIAL for said questioning to have outed knowledge of a flip. That no one outed any such knowledge is not meaningful, because the mod shut down that possibility by quick-flipping (fwiw, as a mod I have an unofficial policy of keeping twilight open at least 30 minutes even if I see a hammer, because people SHOULD have some amount of time to react, and "is the mod around right now" is kind of a crappy luck element to dump into a game).

So your premise is that you’d as Town call the lynch (which you were on) into question in hopes of eliciting scum to post so as to incriminate themselves. Yet why couldn’t Town do the same? I mean – your whole premise is that you yourself are Town who specifically called the hammer into question. So why couldn’t your “tricksy trap” catch another Town player who had a Town read on Moz instead of scum? The fact that you are ignoring this possibility shows stunning cognitive dissonance.

I called the HAMMER into question. Did you see me give a "oh no moz was town oh woe is me" spiel? Did you see anything OTHER THAN my calling the hammer into question there? If so please demonstrate.

Or please demonstrate how a twilight questioning of the hammerer is only useful given a town flip. If Moz flipped scum, would questioning that hammer somehow be meaningless?

Again – the fact that the second a hammer was throw you immediately went on the offensive against the hammerer on a wagon yhou were on seems pretty damn suspect.

How? You SAY it's suspect but your reasons are bogus. It looked like a potential scum-hammer (whether or not it was on a buddy), so I went after it. I don't need to wait for the mod to tell me the flip to be useful.

2) What cognitive dissonance? Ignore for a second that it was my hydra partner who couldn't count (blah blah hydra dissonance as if that means anything in this context), and explain to me why one person derp-hammering AFTER ANOTHER PERSON DERP-HAMMERED AND IT WAS PUBLICLY DISCUSSED (and hans was sufficiently involved in the game that he couldn't have missed that it had been a point of discussion) is not itself worth pushing and questioning.

Cognitive Dissonance can be boiled down to the following – when someone’s actions contradict their own stated beliefs it is a sign they are lying. I don’t recall anyone saying that said hammer wasn’t worth discussing. Yet you are suggesting you are Town who made a mistake (or in this case trying to apply Hydra Dissonance as an excuse) but your stance is that Hans can’t be Town who made the same mistake. The Dissonance is clear – you did exactly what Hans did yet can’t apparently see any reason why it couldn’t be the same supposed Town mistake you made.

That's pretty much bullshit though. I QUESTION his hammer under the assumption that it is UNLIKELY that he as town made that mistake given that it already happened, AND that there was another vote on Moz (and a sketchy looking vote at that) immediately before his vote. Please explain where I imply, much less state, that it is somehow an impossible town process. The paragraph that you cite below is COMPLETELY consistent with the reasoning as I explain it. No assumption that it is impossible as town exists.

The whole paragraph below outlines this –

Hans, if town, ignored the fact that derp-hammering already happened (and the normal town process after it had been discussed would be to be more careful with voting), AND the fact that a mere two posts above his own vote, someone else dumped in a vote (and a sub who had just come in and cast a flagrantly sheeping vote at that), and basically just said "yeah fuck it I'm voting there". That is a questionable town process and should always be questioned (regardless of moz flip by the way). Giving me shit about questioning him for it is ridiculous.

And your “Hey, want to talk about empty twilight posting” follow-up is weak. Specifically you are saying “You were not drawing conclusions before there was more information”. Well, duh. Until the Mod flipped Moz there was no information to be had.

Again – the only person in a position to draw conclusions about the lynch itself (and Hans’s hammer) were the Mafia who know Moz was flipping Town.

Your “EMPTY TWILIGHT POSTING GRAAAAA” stance only serves to try to turn the focus away from that fact and keep yourself from being on the defensive.

That's nonsense. The only people who can draw conclusions immediately (that directly relate to the flip0 may be those who know the flip, but since there was going to be a flip, literally everyone in the game could draw conclusions from twilight postings after the flip was subsequently made public. And no one needed to know moz's flip to think that hans's hammer looked sketchy; that much was obvious regardless of moz's alignment.

And to be clear: I was not accusing you of failing to draw conclusions, I was accusing you of fluff posting. Your post was not useful to advance the game in ANY way; pretending as if my issue was simply that you failed to draw conclusions is lazy at best, dishonest at worst.

[Ultimate Despair]

again, the tone: "I'm better than you and never make mistakes."

1) so the two people were doom, who already stated he didn't mean that and magna on the middle of D2? okay.

2) it's not a strong post just for the scumslip stuff. it's a strong post because he's looking for scum and his views on posts reminds me of things I was thinking when I was reading them. he is viewing stuff from a town point of view. also, scum make a lot of mistakes. if scum didn't, there would be no way to scumhunt them, and that could be a possible mistake on your part.

3) do you think I'm town?

Actually the tone is "stop wasting my time with meaningless bullshit". Probably inherent in that is "I'm better than you", which, for the record, is a fairly obvious and common town tell, unless you think I'm doing it in a way that suggests that I'm just scum gloating (and you DEFINITELY need citations if you want to sell that one). I don't think I ever claimed to never make mistakes (among other things, I've been on two town lynch wagons, so obv this isn't my greatest game ever), but if you want to argue that I'm showing off my ego, sure. Probably am. Now if you think I'm scum, argue why it's scummy instead of villagery.

1) Magna asked me two stupid questions and then voted me apparently because I didn't answer his stupid questions. Doom already acknowledged that it was reasonable to read his question in the way I did. And yes, that's two people. What's your point here?

2) His actual argument is dumb though. Given that his argument is dumb, the question is whether he believes it. Do you believe that he believes it? Why or why not?

3) Not sure. Do you think you've done something strongly indicative this game? You've produced content, which is itself something somewhat positive, but I don't know why you deserve to be a strong read in either direction. If I've missed something important wrt your alignment, feel free to enlighten me.

-M

and you say you're not disregarding stuff I post. I'm curious why you need to proclaim you as town in every single post that you make. it's always: "hey, this thing I did is obv-town", "hey, this thing I did is a town tell'. I'm saying you use this tone to disregard stuff that other people post about you. It's not just on me, it's on Magna as well. every time people accuse you, you start to say that you're better then than, and that you are obvtown.

What EXACTLY am I disregarding here? I note that what you're accusing me of (arrogance) is actually town-indicative, and then ask you to demonstrate why you think it's scum-indicative. You turn it around and act as if I'm proclaiming myself obvtown (when I haven't), and ignore the QUESTION I asked you of why this behavior is scum-indicative (which you know, is ACTUALLY disregarding something the other person is saying).

1) it's just that it's curious you waited the start of D3 to answer magna "stupid" questions. you waited until they were a problem. if Magna/Doom hadn't pushed you about it, you wouldn't answer this.

I answered because there were now two people who (seemingly) wanted me to answer the question, even though it was a dumb busywork question in the first place, and so I just did it. Why do you think this is indicative?

2) again. the argument is dumb. I think he believes it. I think you're scum. He probably does as well. I'm reading him as town. I think he believes.

What about his argument as presented makes you think he believes it? Substantively, all you're doing here is saying "I agree with his argument, therefore I agree that he believes it". That's lazy. Presume I'm town (which obviously you don't want to do). UNDER THAT MODEL, do you think that he believes what he's saying? Why or why not?

3) that is not my point. my point is that, if you're not sure I'm town, you saying: "3) stop looking for scumslips, start looking for actually scummy behavior. "Scumslips" are bullshit the bulk majority of the time and mainly an excuse fir lazy scumhunting." makes no sense. in this you assume I'm town 100%, not even considering I might be doing this for scum reasons. if you were town on this game, you wouldn't be so sure of my alignment.

Actually I think you're being bad regardless of alignment. I SUSPECT you're town and am trying to educate you in order to be less bad. I could be wrong, but until I have solid reason to think you're scum, I'm going to talk to you as if you're town. That's not even slightly indicative on me, unless you think you have some magic way to differentiate from someone who THINKS you're town and someone who KNOWS you're town (and if you are town, perhaps this game will teach you how dumb that approach is).

[Ultimate Despair]

and his point about scumslips makes me think that he's scum caught from the wrong reasons, and now is fuckin' angry about it.

"caught for the wrong reasons"
or
"town who thinks that the case against him is bullshit"

What exactly differentiates the two in your mind? And what makes you think I'm angry about being caught, as opposed to contemptuous towards the seemingly dumb player who actually believes this crap?

-M

[MagnaofIllusion]

at MOI, can you give an example from your ISO when you mention 3 mafia potential pairings over 2 mafia potential pairings.

Did you not think I could do this?

In case I suddenly die while on V/LA –

Lynch Moz. If they flip scum then UD is almost assuredly a partner. But my death via Daykill means the Moz slot has to be solved BEFORE LYLO and that would be today's lynch.

Lucca and Superhans are very likely Town in that circumstance so don’t lynch them unless you get to a 3 person LYLO and then really examine their posting the whole game before commiting to a scum read there.

Aside of Moz and UD I’d place approximate weight of other scum with Moz as follows …

Revan > Wgeurts / Doom > Having but there isn’t a ton of difference between the tiers there at this stage.

Now if Moz is somehow Town then all bets on my reads are off and I can't help you there.

I mean it was trivially easy to find this. Of course given Moz was Town the whole relational alignment assessments are out the window but here clearly I am looking for three scum players.

And you are (purposefully, I guess) missing the point – it is not that you aren’t putting together three way pairings. It is that the entirety of your posting to this point (now that I’ve explained what I was seeing all bets are off since you know) was about looking for two scum. Never saying “I think all three scum is in X, Y,Z, and Q”. Always saying “Player X plus Player Y”.

[Ultimate Despair]

@magna: it seems like the example you cited is of someone who, with the unique knowledge that scum was a 2-man team, had postings that inadvertently reflected that mindset . Here, Hans is only looking for two scum, in a game where there are three. You talk about it being something you'd expect from a less experienced player; can you come up with a couple useful examples in your experience when less experienced scum have exhibited this tell?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – Will be V/LA from 4:30pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend V/LA

@MoI: Are you ready to state your reasons for actually threatening Revan yet?

I wanted to see if he would actually move back to Moz since I was pretty certain Moz was getting lynched. His movement (or lack thereof) might have been very useful in in helping to determine whether he was likely scum. Unfortunately both Nhadia and Super made that a moot point.

--

This is unproductive and worthless thinking. Superhans being a new player doesn't make him incapable of detecting experienced scum nor does it make his pushes less valuable unless they're legitimately bad.
I will not be pushing MOI today but I'm not a fan of you dismissing Superhans outright for suggesting it.

Other than absolutely trying to make sure Super doesn’t get votes I eagerly await your input given that you basically fence-sit both myself and Having here.

Maybe Superhans is scum but he's not today's lynch for reasons that I will get into.

Nope. You cannot have information that means one scum lynch is better than others. That’s the nature of this open set-up.

--

Your post was nonsense, I acknowledged it as such. I also justified why I saw it that way. Do you think just handwaving it away as "just throwing insults" helps you? It doesn't...

Yawn … I mean just repeating insults over and over doesn’t make them true. Appeal to Repitition is a logical fallacy scum use for a reason but it is easy to identify.

Actually I was pointing out that scum-reading me for it was dumb. "The town motivation is obvious" means that there very obviously was potentially town motivation. Maybe I did do it for the WIFOM as scum. Maybe there was some other benefit that hasn't been discussed or isn't obvious. You're stretching here, especially since LITERALLY IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH (that you chose to cut off for whatever reason) I was making the point that fitz's argument was dumb, NOT the point that it made me obvtown.

But again – there really wasn’t Towm motivation. Or more correctly Town motivation that makes a lick of sense. Having’s points were not by any means off the wall. Supposed Town you should have no reason to say “Hey that was a stupid hammer must be scum motivated” since Town you should not know Moz was flipping Town. Given all you’ve said about how you were Town who Derp-hammered Day 1 there are realms of possibility where Town Hans derp hammers Moz scum there. Yet you didn’t given that a second thought and immediately went on the attack.

I called the HAMMER into question. Did you see me give a "oh no moz was town oh woe is me" spiel? Did you see anything OTHER THAN my calling the hammer into question there? If so please demonstrate.

Or please demonstrate how a twilight questioning of the hammerer is only useful given a town flip. If Moz flipped scum, would questioning that hammer somehow be meaningless?

And now you are back-tracking. As I just said above – again you really didn’t have any reason to question the hammer before the flip as Town. Post flip? At least then you can logically scum-hunt knowing it was a hammer on Town.

How? You SAY it's suspect but your reasons are bogus. It looked like a potential scum-hammer (whether or not it was on a buddy), so I went after it. I don't need to wait for the mod to tell me the flip to be useful.

Nope. Your stance is predicated on a flip Town you should not have known. No way around that. Again repeating that my logic is bad doesn’t make it so. Sorry for you on that.

That's pretty much bullshit though. I QUESTION his hammer under the assumption that it is UNLIKELY that he as town made that mistake given that it already happened, AND that there was another vote on Moz (and a sketchy looking vote at that) immediately before his vote. Please explain where I imply, much less state, that it is somehow an impossible town process. The paragraph that you cite below is COMPLETELY consistent with the reasoning as I explain it. No assumption that it is impossible as town exists.

Nope. Your thought process that Hans was scummy before hypo-Town you could know it was a bad hammer combined with the fact that you refuse to acknowledge his “crime” is exactly the same as yours but his isn’t likely to come from Town while yours totally did means you are just playing “Nah nah nah nah nah your are stupid” games at this point.

The one good thing about this exchange is that I probably can rule out you and Hans as being partners. So that’s helpful.

[Ultimate Despair]

Nope. Your stance is predicated on a flip Town you should not have known. No way around that. Again repeating that my logic is bad doesn’t make it so. Sorry for you on that.

Play hypothetical: mozami flips scum. How, in that world, is my questioning nonsensical? To be clear, your logic here is apparently predicated on both of the following presumptions:

1) It is unreasonable to question that hammer given a scum flip (literally what you're claiming here)
2) It is unreasonable to instinctively react to that hammer and think the derp is likely fake and want to push on it

I don't agree with either of those presumptions, much less both.

-M