Civilization Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Vecna]

Drixx just entered the game straight at the top of my scumlist

Announcing youre going to pick Treestump? REALLY?

Its just basicly scum knowing theyll need an excuse to not be nk'd yet in the endgame announcing to the world why theyre not getting NK'd. Guys guys! The reason im still alive is because im treestump and scum doesnt want subpar nightkills! I swear its not because Im scum that planned ahead.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

@PV: Yeah and 4 out of those 5 have potential to go seriously wrong.

Really? How so?

- Scum can act like they're a PR by bread crumbing or lay lowing and can trick a town who choose the doctor power to protect them
- Scum benefit if they get to neighborize someone or someone neighorizes them since they not only get information they might have not had but also get to manipulate in private
- Scum can use the cop on death to get an idea of who to kill
- Scum can try to act as vigilante bait and get the vigilante killed

These seem to be based on the idea that town is dumb. And yes, scum getting PRs is bad and town getting them is good, it's not rocket science.

K that's a lie I do have reads. Like Leon, dude, did it really not occur to you why outing every single PR would be a bad idea? Cause normally town just thinks about that by default, and scum have nothin to fear.

I hadn't read how the wonders worked when I posted that, I was mostly thinking about build priority and stopping scummy players from getting PRs.

We've some smart players for sure but as a unit I wouldn't be surprised if we failed.

[The DEO]

245 is not a problem to me. It's consistent with his mindset that science will fuck us. The optimal best option, in a lack of information position, is the one that gets the most of our townreads. I'm townreading Spiffeh's general entrance as a whole, scumhunting and trying to persuade as to what he thinks he's best. I just feel he's wrong and acting out of fear. That doesn't make him scummy though. People carry their own baggage and those who are transparent with it help.

I think you're making the same mistake that those who disagree with you are indeed scum. Sure, scum disagree sometimes, but sometimes they agree. Looking at the depth of logic tells more.

~Titus

[The DEO]

Drixx just entered the game straight at the top of my scumlist

Announcing youre going to pick Treestump? REALLY?

Its just basicly scum knowing theyll need an excuse to not be nk'd yet in the endgame announcing to the world why theyre not getting NK'd. Guys guys! The reason im still alive is because im treestump and scum doesnt want subpar nightkills! I swear its not because Im scum that planned ahead.

Silly Vecna.

Drixx is for town.

(Sung to Trixx cereal).

[Yuri]

You read about how build priority works and that scum could get PRs, but didn't read how the wonders worked? What info were you missing?

And A&K what's the prob with 245. That's classic Spiff, and besides don't see scum being real obvs about denying town more time to discuss this when he's settled on what the "right" choice is. This isn't a lynch vote. (Which, by the way, I also sorta want to get to because voting people is the fun part)

Pedit: the quote miles

[Yuri]

First sentence above is to Leon

[Fro99er]

Scum will only have daychat if one of their team decides to build the wonder that allows it.

Why wouldn't they? It seems quite optimal for scum to pick daychat in a game where they would want to coordinate picking powers as well as manipulate town out of picking those powers during a day phase. The good thing is, scum won't have daychat on day 1.

That person then has to survive, which makes them easier to spot

How? Just because the player pool is narrowed from kills and claims? I guess, but I'm not sure that's a reason *for* picking science.

Wait. Since scum don't have daychat today it doesn't really let them coordinate D1 wonders even with knowledge of D2 wonders. On D2 they can coordinate based off D2 and D3, but the player pool will be much smaller so the pool will be much narrower for them to pick scum utility and evade a massclaim.

That makes me less worried about the daytalk issue.

As an added bonus, whenever the mid game mass claim arrives, that person has to lie.

And yeah, this is a good point. That adds to that.

pedit: so many pedits

UNVOTE:
VOTE: science

[Maxous]

Don't publicly announce what you're building pls.
There's no need to at this stage

[Akane and Nebby]

Titus I wouldn't be surprised if I am, but I seriously don't like the None wagon. I think I'ma talk more time to sort the people who are voting None in a bit.
-Nebby

pedit: tbh I never played with spliff before.

[Leonshade]

You read about how build priority works and that scum could get PRs, but didn't read how the wonders worked? What info were you missing?

And A&K what's the prob with 245. That's classic Spiff, and besides don't see scum being real obvs about denying town more time to discuss this when he's settled on what the "right" choice is. This isn't a lynch vote. (Which, by the way, I also sorta want to get to because voting people is the fun part)

Pedit: the quote miles

The sign-up thread. It doesn't say that wonders are just regular PRs.

[Fro99er]

People getting on drixx for declaring stump intent is

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Leon's new avi is miles better than his old one.

[The DEO]

Titus I wouldn't be surprised if I am, but I seriously don't like the None wagon. I think I'ma talk more time to sort the people who are voting None in a bit.
-Nebby

pedit: tbh I never played with spliff before.

Spiffeh is very skilled as town. I haven't played with scum Spiffeh in awhile (if ever), but I can attest to the Spiffeh not wanting to plan is his genuine concern.

I don't mind Drixx being a treestump. It's a little suboptimal to claim it, but I can see why he did.

[Leonshade]

Let me rephrase why science is bad for town: Scum is going to have daychat. As soon as they know what wonders come up during the next day, they have -5- persons to strategize how to obtain the most powerfull wonders for themselves.

Any vote for a resolution is a scumvote from here on out.

it is so decreed by me, vecna

Scum will only have daychat if one of their team decides to build the wonder that allows it. That person then has to survive, which makes them easier to spot (assuming we don't do the usual thing where lurkers get allowed to lurk the first few days for no fucking reason). As an added bonus, whenever the mid game mass claim arrives, that person has to lie.

And umm... limit 1 wonder per player means a scum team of

(wait ... you know it's 5???)

your indicated size will get to strategize exactly N-1 times all game (I'm assuming scum take daychat). I can see that being an advantage to them, sure, but there's way more town than scum. Further, scum are the informed minority. Sciences gives everyone extra info and thus closes the information gap. In other words ... your logic needs work.

Bolded: Oh come on, this is just ridiculous.

You seem to understand this setup better than most, and provide my viewpoint more eloquently than I could, but the people want "minimal scum power" over optimal play.

[Fro99er]

People getting on drixx for declaring stump intent is

It's something so easy to jump on, and shows they know nothing about drixx. Just an easy way to throw shade.

[Akane and Nebby]

Titus I trust you.
-Nebby

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Drix read my mind on Tree Stump honestly. I mean it's still a gamble but way less of a gamble than the other Wonders.

[Yuri]

The sign-up thread. It doesn't say that wonders are just regular PRs.

How does them being regular PRs over... actually, what was the alternative here? What did you think they were?

[Vecna]

Scum will only have daychat if one of their team decides to build the wonder that allows it. That person then has to survive, which makes them easier to spot (assuming we don't do the usual thing where lurkers get allowed to lurk the first few days for no fucking reason). As an added bonus, whenever the mid game mass claim arrives, that person has to lie.

Someone sure has been giving a lot of thought to optimal scum picks and how to survive with them

And umm... limit 1 wonder per player means a scum team of (wait ... you know it's 5???) your indicated size will get to strategize exactly N-1 times all game (I'm assuming scum take daychat). I can see that being an advantage to them, sure, but there's way more town than scum. Further, scum are the informed minority. Sciences gives everyone extra info and thus closes the information gap. In other words ... your logic needs work.

You just directly contradicted your earlier point. So what is it, are you and your buddies gonna take it or not? Trying to signal what should or should not be done? Also youre comparing apples to oranges, scum isnt informed about what is coming so claiming town is catching up to them in this regard is nonsense. Both gain the extra advantage, scum can coordinate this advantage better, even if they do not take daychat

Finally, we have Titus in game, and once we know we can trust Titus, that's the biggest reason to advocate for more info. For anyone who isn't aware of how absurdly good she is at synergizing town roles, go mosey on over to Suikoden mafia and watch as she takes a few seemingly weak roles and gets them working together and

gets the entire fucking scum team right on day one, with no town on her scum list, except the 2-man mason team who were giving a false positive (and included me, who Titus notoriously distrusts)

. Yeah ... I'm going to say we play the odds that Titus is more likely town than not and we close the info gap.

Thanks for trying to shove your shitty logic down our throats though. Also, will be watching since that certainty of scum team size might be a slip. on you!

So you say my logic is shitty, but your entire argument why yours is better is because we should play the odds that titus isnt scum? Laughable.

VOTE: Science

The fact that Titus is not acknowledging the concerns for Sciences that a few of us have raised and keeps harping on "but we could do this with these roles!!!" is concerning.

Spiffeh you're better than this. Titus is absurdly good with information and if people will let her do her thing. Throwing shade on her for doing exactly what one would expect her to do as town ... not so good.

@Titus I refuse to go another game coordinating night actions unnecessarily after The Thing Mafia. The Thing was different in that everyone's role was public knowledge so it made sense to coordinate night actions and even then, scum had a pretty easy time slipping through the cracks because of every night action being public.

What you're suggesting gives scum a roadmap as to how to proceed during the night JUST like it did in that game.

I still have PTSD
~Maria

Well, that's an issue and if you feel that way, I don't think my words will stop you. It hinders my towngame to have less information, so that is why I said it is a personal choice. I still feel town coordinate better than scum if we keep asking the why factor, something that was missed in The Thing after we died.

That being said, anyone who makes an argument about scum can coordinate too is *side eye*. Of course scum can, but that reeks more of denying info to town boogeyman. Saying town sucks at coordinating is different.

If I can identify town early, I am good at optimizing us.

Yet others do not play like that as a whole.

So we're going to play sub-optimally because a couple of people screwed up in a different game with different players with different mechanics? What kind of reasoning ends up with that as an end point? Wake up sheeple ... each game is a unique entity. Take what's useful from it and leave the rest behind.

Suboptimal is adjusting our entire strategy to one person that could just as well be scum, and turn the entire idea against you.

Right now, scum have to choose whether or not to pick one of the existing wonders.

Why do people want to pick science that will tell them that better scum powers are coming?

Because we outnumber scum greatly and it closes the information gap.

More semantics to try and justify a subpar option. It doesnt do anything to close the real gap since scum still know who is scum and who is town and we still dont. There is no closing of any gaps, there is just an entirely different type of information and scum can utilize it far better

I think the tree stump power is arguable the best one depending on who takes it.

Agreed. I am tempted to just declare I'm going to take it, as I unilaterally did in Space Dandy 2 ... but that kind of caused a shitstorm.

Intent to build tree stump wonder. Any objections?

allready responded to this, but the entire use of treestump is to get nightkilled so that we know its coming from town. That wont happen if you announce it. Only scum have reasons to announce this nonsense since it allows them a fake town-cover where they have an excuse for not getting NK'd if theyre performing properly

No wonder powers so far have been 1-shot actions either so I also don't feel like playing around that either. (Also if we see a blocked cop whoever takes a roleblocker power would obviously be conf scum.)

Also I am assuming whoever takes the treestump power is scum and will ignore them.

That's why a townie should try to take it, to block scum from getting it.

Tree stump in the hands of an engaged active town player who is good in the mid and late game is like ... crazy optimal.

Even more crazy optimal for a scum to take it and claim it

Yuck. The only player that should claim tomorrow is Stonehenge and Treestump. Maybe not Stonehenge.

Why should the Treestump claim? If town, the Treestump drawing the night kill would be better than anyone else.

Treestump hides flip. That's a negative utility that gets claimed. It should only go to people who we insist stay at endgame. There's only one person who has posted that I feel confident as town with that ability (not us).

Agreed. Treestump claims due to the negative utility associated with it. This isn't normal treestump where you KNOW that the person is town because they flipped and you basically have a voteless IC. Whomever stumps this game will only be as powerful as their ability to build town cohesion and earn trust. Also ... probably should be someone who is good at the end game.

The list of people who can do both of those things effectively (from among whom I've played with recently enough to be confident I know them well) isn't tremendously long.

[Yuri]

Drix read my mind on Tree Stump honestly. I mean it's still a gamble but way less of a gamble than the other Wonders.

Uzi could you explain your point in calling those roles a gamble again? Like what action do you want to be taken

[Leonshade]

Let me rephrase why science is bad for town: Scum is going to have daychat. As soon as they know what wonders come up during the next day, they have -5- persons to strategize how to obtain the most powerfull wonders for themselves.

Any vote for a resolution is a scumvote from here on out.

it is so decreed by me, vecna

Scum will only have daychat if one of their team decides to build the wonder that allows it. That person then has to survive, which makes them easier to spot (assuming we don't do the usual thing where lurkers get allowed to lurk the first few days for no fucking reason). As an added bonus, whenever the mid game mass claim arrives, that person has to lie.

And umm... limit 1 wonder per player means a scum team of

(wait ... you know it's 5???)

your indicated size will get to strategize exactly N-1 times all game (I'm assuming scum take daychat). I can see that being an advantage to them, sure, but there's way more town than scum. Further, scum are the informed minority. Sciences gives everyone extra info and thus closes the information gap. In other words ... your logic needs work.

Bolded: Oh come on, this is just ridiculous.

You seem to understand this setup better than most, and provide my viewpoint more eloquently than I could, but the people want "minimal scum power" over optimal play.

This is unnecessarily douche-y, and I can see the viewpoint for None, but I don't agree that limiting information helps town here. Or maybe more accurately, I don't consider the advance information on Wonders a big deal anyway, as like Drixx said, scum will be picky anyway (and there's only five scum, so town will get more abilities anyway).

[Fro99er]

allready responded to this, but the entire use of treestump is to get nightkilled so that we know its coming from town.

And the alternative is drixx doesn't get killed and lives to end game, which is also good if drixx is town.

[Nero Cain]

First of all -- All of these could have town or scum usages. To deny a resolution simply because it has a way for scum to use it is ridiculous.

1) Sciences if scum get daychat does have the issue Vecna is proposing.
2) Arts scum could get a wonder that helps them vote differently.
3) None denies potential benefits to town because we play off fear.

Instead of looking at what scum COULD do and then trying to avoid that we should be picking the one we believe gives town the best benefit. Because all of them can be made to "look" scummy. But what matters is what is actually protown.

My two cents but I want to talk with Titus head before voting a particular way.

~~Math

Since I'm too lazy to write words I'll just say that I agree with this. I am leaning Sciences since it seems like the lowest risk.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Drix read my mind on Tree Stump honestly. I mean it's still a gamble but way less of a gamble than the other Wonders.

Uzi could you explain your point in calling those roles a gamble again? Like what action do you want to be taken

See 228.

Honestly? None. All of this is just noise.

[Yuri]

Drixx how is certainty of scum team size anything close to a slip? It's pretty normal to imagine a certain size based on the number of players. It's a point that's easy to throw shade on, same as you announcing the Tree Stump.

Pedit yeah i read 228, this noise bothers me lmao it doesn't make a lot of sense as spec and it's useless by your own admission