Civilization Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Vecna]

Im wondering if Math's play is a stratagem for survival

They are either town playing good cop bad cop with their heads, or they are scum, or they are town and Math is the worst ever non-newbie I've ever played with

It does create for a refreshing/interesting dynamic either way.

[Fro99er]

How do you feel a Yuri scumflip reflects on Spiff?

(@frog)

not all that good considering how he resisted it for so long.

Although he did make a couple of good points that I didn't make in regards to yuri when he finally did respond. So not as bad as it would have been.

[Fro99er]

Im wondering if Math's play is a stratagem for survival

They are either town playing good cop bad cop with their heads, or they are scum, or they are town and Math is the worst ever non-newbie I've ever played with

It does create for a refreshing/interesting dynamic either way.

It's not refreshing whatsoever. It's frustrating as hell

[Vecna]

Hmmm im even considering bidding on the stump myself by now. The only thing holding me back is self-knowledge that my towngame without being able to rely on solid mechanic discussion is rather hit and miss.

[The DEO]

That may be what YOU do better. But you're actively not listening to your TOWNREADS that say they do better with more information. So if you are town you actively hampered your town reads based on what YOU do better. This is very anti town at BEST. However I think this comes from scum wanting to limit the choices we have. What is better for town is not what necessarily better for you. It's what the majority of your townreads want unless they are actively saying something crazy like removing all PR roles or shoot the innocent child. In this case the latter occurred so I am scumspecting those that said to actively remove power from the Town game solvers without scumreading the setup speccers. Especially when you're big point as to why I'm "confbiased" is when I am not 'listening to the townreads'.

I don't think you actively said you townread everyone else in that list. Most of the time you ignore them except for a defense. In the first 11 pages you're more concerned about not being scumread for the "slip" (which I think was but it's definitely weak so I didn't mention it) and trying to force NONE down our throats. I don't see the town "game solving" from you at the start of the game. It's not an active plan. As demonstrated scum don't have day chat. It's a matter of there's an active clear push for none from scum over the loudest town players that wanted it. If you think LUV's vote on None is town then I don't know what to say to that. He didn't have an opinion then all of a sudden it's a "bad idea". It's more he hoped town would pick none on their own but didn't want to risk Science/Arts taking off.

I think town pokes and scumhunts obviously but there's a different feel. I feel like you've inexplicably not hunted certain people. You decided they were town on things that they should not be townread for. (E.G. LUV townread before post 74. And if you say you don't townread him then post 74 gets infinitely worse). I don't see where you scumread Spiffeh at all except recently in just like the past hour or two. I would love your thoughts on Spiffeh and Yuri.

Spiffeh absolutely is a panicker. =26341]Source He freaks out over player lists that can catch him. He also has limits of how he interacts with partners based on how he interacts with Smart.

Scum starting more wagons is very suspicious at that point of time. There were 5-6 wagons at that point in time. Getting more wagons like that would raise a lot of suspicion especially if Nahdia did a votecount there. Notice took off and died. It was a bad push. And pointing out someone is an alt is a good way to avoid reads. If LUV was town they'd case Yuri out. All they do is say they have a scumread. There's no reasons why they are an alt and they know based on meta. I don't believe in alt outing and know of alts I will take with me to the grave per request. Therefore there is nothing interactable. There are no reasons why LUV does. With LUV's vote flopping I don't see them invested in Yuri scum. They just gave up on Notice because no traction. They wanted a mislynch of Notice. If he truly believed Notice slipped he'd tunnel Notice hell or high water or explain how he was convinced Notice was town. Instead he just says to vote Yuri.

Yuri scumflip is practically a townfirm of Notice. If Yuri flips town I don't want to touch Notice. I know JaeReed. Outside of games I talk with JaeReed on Skype. This is JaeReed town. I also don't like how you are saying that the majority of scumreads are going to be in the town then throw shade at the person suggesting a scum team outside the townreads. Between that and threatening to kill me multiple times it feels like you honestly know the scum are in Titus's reads here. If you think the scum are going to be in the townreads you need to look at which and why. Otherwise I feel like you're just excusing things when you aren't forced to be on Yuri.

Maxous as scum discredits attempts to solve as "too complicated". (See Undertale several times) And pitches alternate theories to try to get out of pressure. This post and Undertale. He's just not doing that here. Instead he stays hyper aggressive. That's not scum Maxous.

Couldn't stay on Beeboy. It wasn't a valid lynch that was going to happen. Also I did address Notice town before. Admittedly I haven't talked about Beeboy that much because of #beeboy2017 Beeboy is town because as scum Beeboy is always active. He was the main active head in the hydra. I can pick out beeboy scum rather easily. Here's meta for you for it. In Mass Effect Mafia he had a lot of time but since then his activity has gone down all over the board and this game is going so fast. Source

If Beeboy or Maxous or Notice are scum they will be caught. But right now there just isn't anything to lynch there.

About the hiveminding specifically Titus cut all that stuff out...Said it was too rambly and hard to understand

LOL I get scumread as town if I'm right or I attack them or their understanding of the world. That's what happens. People never want to adjust in mafia. You have to take your scumreads and lynch them by force. Titus disagrees with me fundamentally on style but she's hoping to rub off me but I'm hoping to show her you take the bull by the horns. You force people to talk about shit. You do it til you get an answer you're satisfied with or your scumread is lynched. It's what you do as town. Compromising no where near end of day is what causes town to be lynched. If I ever vote a townread fucking lynch me.

ABR I townread because of the crumbing of his opinions he did in the first post. ABR is also being a lurk sack because the game is moving too fast. ABR likes slower moving games he can snark and control as town. He's lurking this shit out. 100% I expect him to make a prod dodge and try to keep his slot. Maybe throw in a snark read or two but ABR is probably town. Again if he isn't then this will easily be sorted when he does post.

Leonshade is just attacking everyone from the outset. If Leonshade isn't town he deserves a scummy. When I was making my case before I had him as a light townread. Having to reread his posts solidifies that. He's making conscious thoughts from the start and asking questions. I'd be shocked if Leonshade isn't town.

You've been saying it's anti town to vote anything other than none because it helps scum. But I don't feel you explored the town benefits or listened to anyone else. It feels like you had an agenda and pushed it with complete disregard for what your townreads were saying.

Then don't claim there's one. Help me hunt it. If it is the town block Titus says it is and I'm derping pressure helps that. If it isn't then we found what's bugging you or you're bussing. Poke please.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Hmmm im even considering bidding on the stump myself by now. The only thing holding me back is self-knowledge that my towngame without being able to rely on solid mechanic discussion is rather hit and miss.

DONT YOU DARE. THAT IS DRIXX'S.

That's something me and Titus agree on.

~~Math

[The DEO]

Im wondering if Math's play is a stratagem for survival

They are either town playing good cop bad cop with their heads, or they are scum, or they are town and Math is the worst ever non-newbie I've ever played with

I have a > 60% scum win rate. I'm waiting on Frozen Angel to freaking calculate it. I can count the scum losses on ONE hand. In a game of 42 I was widely townread and identified the entire scum team coached them then had all the undead fucking murder them. Please stop calling me a newb. It's annoying. I am swingy. Sometimes I'm really right (Undertale) and (Thing Mafia -- MoI and DGB) but sometimes I'm really wrong PyP. But in PyP people only called me idiots. They didn't explain what was wrong about my theory the town block was deceiving people. And I was right that was happening. Vecna was scum and drealmerz was scum. I had the wrong people but I was right the town block was a piece of shit. My townrate is a piece of shit but that happens when you're evaluating and no one interacts and just calls you dumb or confbiased all the damn time.

~~Math

[The DEO]

What is interesting is Frogger's switch to sciences which I call out in my PT.

OH GOD FROGGER SWITCHED!

Tell me exactly what the hell is wrong with switching a vote. FOR A FUCKING RESOLUTION

Because it creates the illusion that not all the scum plopped on none.

And as for your four players bus. That's in my wall. I've even done it before in 1800. What people don't expect works.

And that game perfect game with 90% of my posts advocating for my buddy's lynch.

I know how to win as scum. If you don't think that then you need to eventually play a game with scum with me. If you're asking why would scum do/not do something you're already going about scum hunting me wrong certainly. It's more of what benefit scum get from doing something not why. And the benefit is scum are pinned so that is the natural response.

~~Math

[Vecna]

Hmmm im even considering bidding on the stump myself by now. The only thing holding me back is self-knowledge that my towngame without being able to rely on solid mechanic discussion is rather hit and miss.

DONT YOU DARE. THAT IS DRIXX'S.

That's something me and Titus agree on.

~~Math

So you continue to scumread me, but you do appeal to me to work with you? This makes no sense, you cannot have it both ways.

[Vecna]

Also stating I was hampering my townreads with my none choice: Nonsense, most my townreads at that time voted right alongside me.

[The DEO]

Hmmm im even considering bidding on the stump myself by now. The only thing holding me back is self-knowledge that my towngame without being able to rely on solid mechanic discussion is rather hit and miss.

DONT YOU DARE. THAT IS DRIXX'S.

That's something me and Titus agree on.

~~Math

So you continue to scumread me, but you do appeal to me to work with you? This makes no sense, you cannot have it both ways.

I do scumread you. Titus says I have to try to see things from your perspective. So this is me trying. I think it's all horse manure and you're scum pulling the wool over her eyes. Pretty much today I'm going to let Titus do her thing. I'm trying to listen to her but from her lackluster win rate IMHO Titus's play just doesn't generate wins. I know my play doesn't here but with my Aspie friends it does. Rather convincingly. I've been slowly adapting it to get better. It's not perfect by any means and some things I can't talk about but I am getting better. Have I sucked before, absolutely. I don't deny it. But by going through this agonizingly painful process of hydraing with Titus I'm trying to get better. But to be fair there's 0 reasons for the town block that have formed and all I see is antitown bullheaded play from you Vecna at the start then lynch shopping afterward then Frogger starts a bus and the rest of you are pinned. It's a common strategy actually to bus early in mafia. It works out a lot because people don't expect D1 busses.

~~Math

Pedit: You townread Drixx and myself and PV. We all wanted non town answers. Your townreads (which you never stated FYI) were against it. And you never once seemed to take it into consideration.

[The DEO]

non none* fuck autocorrect

[Vecna]

You've been saying it's anti town to vote anything other than none because it helps scum. But I don't feel you explored the town benefits or listened to anyone else. It feels like you had an agenda and pushed it with complete disregard for what your townreads were saying.

I have actually admitted there were possible townreasons as well for voting Science, after Drixx brought up a list of them.

All in all im not really sure what youre expecting of me here. Youre pretty much announcing to the world youre going to keep tunneling me no matter what, and I dont really see any way to change your mind in more of a capacity than what ive been attempting. All this will accomplish in the long run is that one of us has to die before lylo, but im quite sure scum is going to see to that regardless.

I think ive provided strong reasoning for everything ive done this game, bar my vote on Yuri (allthough here I have also stated I agree with the case that was presented on him, AND that I feel it holds valuable information regarding JaeReed).

Ill continue to attempt and ease your suspicions, but im not going to give up my reads to do so - unless other events give me cause to do so. Continue your crusade against me if you must, but in the end youre going to be proven painfully wrong (on account of ME at least).

[Vecna]

I have NEVER townread Drixx. Everytime someone has been stating a TR on that slot ive called them out on it.

Noone has been able to provide ANY reasoning for it, besides him announcing he'd like a treestump.

[Vecna]

And indeed I did not have a strong list of town-reads during the Resolution phase. So what, anyone that did at that point was full of shit. As for after that:

This would be my christmas tree: I like the coherance of the story this is telling, allthough it does point towards it either going way too smoothly or a portion of the people barking up the completely wrong tree.

Yuri (5):

Lil Uzi Vert

,

The DEO

,

Akane and Nebby

,

Vecna, Fro99er

Akane and Nebby

(5):

Yuri

,

Maxous

,

beeboy

,

Nero Cain

,

Albert B. Rampage

beeboy

(4):

ssbm_Kyouko

,

PeregrineV

,

Spiffeh

,

Creature

NoticeMeSenpai

(1):

Elbirn

The DEO

(1):

Sondam

Fro99er

(1):

Leonshade

Sondam

(1):

Drixx

Not Voting (3):

Caesar Wills It, ooba,

NoticeMeSenpa

Vecna-reads

Towneads that I feel are almost certainly not faking it up:
LUV, PeregrineV,

Strong townreads of which I still feel could be faking it and be scum:
A&N, Frogger, DEO, Elbirn, Spiffeh

Group of nulls - im suspicious of anyone having strong townreads within this group
Leonshade, Creature, Ceasar, Sondam

The suspicious but not quite scumread group:
Albert, Maxous, Beeboy, Drixx, Ssbm, Ooba, Nero

Scumreads, would love to lynch:
NoticeMeSenpai, Yuri

Barring unforeseen devellopements, im gonna say now ill only want to lynch in the last 2 at this stage. Feel free to ask me for reasoning if you feel so inclined.

VOTE: NoticeMeSenpai

[Vecna]

Anyways im just going to do the cocky thing here.

Youre not going to get me lynched. 75%+ of the population has a decent - strong townread on me. Besides that, youre wrong on me. You'll be completely UNABLE to get me lynched, so do the practical thing and focus elsewhere.

Im not going to turn a blind eye to your other reads since I cannot rule out with utmost certainty that youre wrong on those. Ill be availlable to discuss anything. Consider this my olive branch to you; ill not shade you, ill not personally attack you, but I wont blindly agree with everything you say either unless I agree with the reasoning beyond it.

[The DEO]

Pedit

Spoiler: Pre Olive Branch

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=66833

FYI here's 1800.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=67413

There's Gistou (where I am a good scum hunter in that one -- See the scum PT. I nailed Wayward Thinker and Cephir and RAM hydra dead to rights). Wayward killed me.
Undertale (where I nailed the one scum on replace in with 14 alive. {{It was a weird game. }}) Which I did so through information and everyone thought I was nuts. I kept asking the questions that lead me to Maxous scum repeatedly. The culting caused my his flip caused me to implode because I couldn't shake SirCakez town. If I had been able to I would have been able to turn on Gio for voting me again.

~~Math

Pedit: See that's the problem. You don't have townreads so no one can based on you not having reads in the resolution phase. It's crap. If you're town stop this. People form reads at different points. What matters is their thought process which is what must be diagnosed.

Especially I don't believe how you don't have a townread on someone in the resolution phase then ask them to stop defending you. It's crap because it cuts discussion. You could have easily seen who thought it was and wasn't a slip instead out of self preservation you cut that off. Any experienced player knows that telling a scumread to "stop it" for anything is an exercise in futility so either you do it to see how they react or because you townread them. Given the subject matter it has to be the latter and there is just not enough to support it. You were bullshitting IMHO from day one and I'm having a hard time shaking it.

Titus said I could have til 3 am to post but now I'm required to step out based on an agreement I have from her. If I have to tomorrow I will demonstrate further you actually townread our slots and then disregarded it for your own selfish idea that "none" is better. Because I don't see town you completely disregarding what everyone wants but you and then coming back and suspecting me for supposedly doing the same thing.

~~Math

Fine let's olive branch this shit out. Lynch Yuri today. You make a case. Push Yuri to be lynched. Then the next day we push Spiffeh hard see what comes out of the tree. If I'm right and those two are scum then I was right for pushing Titus's block that had Spiffeh on it and you keep giving me benefits of doubts til I'm wrong. When I'm wrong I'll sheeple Titus til Kingdom come or my reads get fixed after talking more with Titus.

~~Math

[Vecna]

Ill keep an open mind about Spiffeh. I would like to hear Titus input on Jaereed she was talking about though, since she saw what I noticed with the connection between Jaereed <--> Yuri but stated she had a different conclusion in mind.

And yes, a Yuri scumflip looks worse on a select few people from my pov, of which spiffeh sort of is one of them.

[Vecna]

And im not sure me making a case on Yuri after ive allready commited to the wagon will result in anything but conf-bias. Lets just say I agree and subscribe to the points brought forward by Frogger.

Also, if yuri does flip scum, my townread on Frogger will grow even stronger - because I do not agree that pushing so hard as a bus on D1 has any merit as scum at all in a setup like this.

[Vecna]

Also, my biggest townread starting in the resolution phase was LUV. Thought process about mechanics is easily faked.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Admittedly I haven't talked about Beeboy that much because of #beeboy2017 Beeboy is town because as scum Beeboy is always active. He was the main active head in the hydra. I can pick out beeboy scum rather easily. Here's meta for you for it. In Mass Effect Mafia he had a lot of time but since then his activity has gone down all over the board and this game is going so fast. Source

Super super drunk atm (weekends are bad for me always sorry) but I wanted to add beeboy's town meta in our lover game supports his town game being disinterested and uninvolved as far as the aggressiveness meta stuff ppl are bringing up.

[Creature]

Vecna, you had me as strong town earlier, what happened?

[Creature]

Don't feel inclined to oppose Yuri wagon anymore.

[Sondam]

That was a good break from the thread....holy shit 22 pages fcuk that
~Maria

[Sondam]

Give me the tldr
~Maria