Umlaut's Micro Normal

[Nexus]

Hey Nexus,

Can you find a review team for this?

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Normal Game modding
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:14 am
From: Umlaut
To: Radja

Hi, Radja. Re. the first list:

1. Yes, I'll be ready to run the game as soon as it's approved.
   
2. This is a 9-player game.
   
3. I have no backup or co-mod.
   
4. I have previously modded Open 661. Currently I have no other modding commitments and am playing in two games.

My game is already designed, here are the goods.

---

Setup

1x

Mafia Ninja

1x

Mafia Strongman

1x

Town Watcher

1x

Bulletproof Townie

5x

Vanilla Townie

Ruleset notes:

• The Mafia win condition is to constitute at least half the living players, so the bulletproof can be endgamed.

---

Opening posts

Micro ###: Just Mafia

The Players

#PLAYER1
#PLAYER2
#PLAYER3
#PLAYER4
#PLAYER5
#PLAYER6
#PLAYER7
#PLAYER8
#PLAYER9

(Asterisks denote prods. Strikeouts denote a replaced player in the same slot.)

Spoiler: The Living

Everyone!

Spoiler: The Dead

No one... yet.

Spoiler: The Shamed

(modkilled)

No one!

Vote Counts

(none yet)

Rules and Setup

(None of these rules supercede or contradict the Universal Sitewide Rules, all of which are in full force.)

GENERAL RULES

• Orange
  is my color. Avoid using it. Multicolored read lists and possibly some other special cases are fine; use common sense.
  
• Don't discuss the game outside of the game until I say it's over.
  
• Don't flame. Don't harass. Don't use insults that target minority or disadvantaged classes. Attack the slot, not the person. If you have a personal problem with another player, deal with it privately or bring it to the moderator or a site mod.
  
• Don't directly quote, misquote, or pretend to quote private communications from the moderator. You may paraphrase. Specifically do not reference the time stamp on your or anyone else's role PM.
  
• Don't use encryption, tiny/hidden/unreadable text, or anything that could be easily confused for such.
  
• Don't game the rules, pretend to break the rules, or test my limits. I have no patience for this behavior. If you have a question about what is acceptable, ask.
  
• Don't argue with me in public. If you take issue with my moderation, PM me.

VOTING, ABILITIES, AND DEADLINES

Day

• Days will last two real-life weeks (14 days).
  
• During the day, all living players may talk in the game thread and vote for a player to lynch, or vote for no lynch.
  
• Votes can be made using either bolded text of form "
  Vote: <playername>
  " or "
  VOTE: <playername>
  ", or (preferably) the vote tag: "[vote]<playername>[/vote]" or "[v]<playername>[/v]". I will interpret shortened or mistyped player names according to my own discretion. In general, if it looks like a vote, I will probably count it as a vote.
  
• When more than half the votes are for for the same player, that player will be lynched. Everyone (including the lynchee) may continue to post in twilight until I process the lynch.
  
• When at least half the votes are for No Lynch, or when the deadline is reached without a majority, the game will proceed to the night phase without a lynch.
  
• If you have a day ability you wish to use, please submit it via PM.

Night

• Nights will last two real-world days. During the night, if
  every living player
  consents via PM or in a private thread, the game will immediately move to the day phase.
  
• During the night, no one may talk in the public thread.
  
• If you have a personal night ability you wish to use, please submit it via PM. Factional abilities should be submitted in the factional thread.
  
• Unless otherwise specified, use of night abilities is optional, and if not submitted will not occur.

ACTIVITY REQUIREMENTS

• Players who do not post for 48 hours in a game-day will incur a prod.
  
• Players who do not post for 24 hours following a prod will be force-replaced.
  
• Players who incur three prods will be force-replaced.
  
• At my discretion, excessive prod-dodging may result in a mod warning and subsequently in disregard of future prod-dodges.
  
• If for any reason you are temporarily unable to meet these requirements, you may declare V/LA status
  in thread
  and be excused.
  
• If you anticipate being completely unable to post for an extended period, consider voluntarily replacing out.
  
• These are minimal requirements for activity, not recommendations; please keep the game active.

SETUP INFORMATION

This is a normal game with two factions:

Town

and

Mafia

. There are no third party roles.

This game uses Natural Action Resolution to resolve night actions.

All Town-aligned players have the following win condition:

You win when all living players are Town.

All Mafia-aligned players have the following win condition:

You win when half or more of living players are Mafia.

One or more players will receive the following role PM:

Spoiler: Vanilla Townie Role PM

You are a

Vanilla Townie

!

Win Condition

You win when all living players are Town.

Abilities

You have no special abilities. Your weapons are your voice and your vote.

---

Role PMs

Spoiler: Mafia Ninja

You are a

Mafia Ninja

!

Your partner is #NAME, a

Mafia Strongman

.

Win Condition

You win when half or more of living players are Mafia.

Abilities

• You and your partner share a private thread in which you can talk and strategize during the pregame and night phases.
  
• Every night, either you or your partner may carry out a kill on one player.
  
• If you carry out a kill, you will not be detected doing so.

Spoiler: Mafia Strongman

You are a

Mafia Strongman

!

Your partner is #NAME, a

Mafia Ninja

.

Win Condition

You win when half or more of living players are Mafia.

Abilities

• You and your partner share a private thread in which you can talk and strategize during the pregame and night phases.
  
• Every night, either you or your partner may carry out a kill on one player.
  
• If you carry out a kill, nothing can prevent it from going through.

Spoiler: Town Watcher

You are a

Town Watcher

!

Win Condition

You win when all living players are Town.

Abilities

• Every night you may choose one player to watch, thus discovering who if anyone targeted that player during the night.

Spoiler: Bulletproof Townie

You are a

Bulletproof Townie

!

Win Condition

You win when all living players are Town.

Abilities

• You cannot be killed except by lynching. (You can be endgamed.)

Spoiler: Vanilla Townie

You are a

Vanilla Townie

!

Win Condition

You win when all living players are Town.

Abilities

You have no special abilities. Your weapons are your voice and your vote.

---

"Hidden" information (result PMs)

The setup is closed, so the distribution of roles is hidden information.

The watcher can get either of the following two result PMs.

If the target is not visited at all, or is only visited by the Ninja:

You did not see anyone visit your target during the night.

If the target is visited by someone other than the Ninja (which in this setup can only be the Strongman):

You saw #NAME visit your target during the night.

[mykonian]

I think there was some movement to put in the opening topic whether there was daytalk. Might make it more clear if you state that people have nighttalk only unless there's some ability in play.

The game would be normal as is. The role pm's are fine. The game as is isn't balanced. Scum gets way too many toys, to the point that if you made them two goons I still think town has worse than average chances of winning the game. The watcher is potent, the bulletproof isn't.

[Firebringer]

I agree with Myko
I think you could potentially have a one shot strongman or one shot ninja but not with current town roles.

Bulletproof just isn't that powerful.
If it was JK and Watcher it would be better and you could put the Ninja or strongman I think

[callforjudgement]

In terms of daytalk, it needs to be mentioned in the opening post unless it's from an Encryptor. That's an actual rule now, not just a movement. As for other rules things, the "please PM me day abilities" rule is out of place in a Normal (where Day abilities don't exist) and might just confuse people. Role PMs look fine.

The setup is definitely scumsided. I'm not 100% sure what the balance of a Watcher + 6 VT versus 2 Mafia Goons is, but I could believe it's win/loss balanced. (It's very swingy either way; the Watcher does literally nothing if they don't predict the kill, and outright catches scum if they do. Large amounts of swing tend to make the actual balance irrelevant.) Here, though, the scum have so much more strength than that! (Note that the Bulletproof Townie doesn't actually help town at all in this setup, as they have no way to get back to odds.)

As such, town are going to need more strength (and possibly scum are

also

going to need less strength) before the setup becomes approvable. I think Firebringer's idea of adding a Jailkeeper is along the right lines here, although I'm not immediately sure how that'd be likely to play out.

[Firebringer]

I think a JK+Watcher is a pretty balanced with a 1 shot Strongman or 1 shot Ninja.
Ninja can counter watcher
Strongman counters Jailkeeper

Watcher effectively will only get one guilty since Jailkeeper jails them.

Strongman might be better to balance out that then a Ninja, since Ninja is just preventing a guilty, whereas Strongman ensures a death.

[Umlaut]

Would one shot of each be too powerful? So it would be JK/Watcher vs. 1-Shot-Ninja/1-Shot-Strongman?

How does doctor compare to JK in power, here?

[Firebringer]

Would one shot of each be too powerful? So it would be JK/Watcher vs. 1-Shot-Ninja/1-Shot-Strongman?

How does doctor compare to JK in power, here?

Doctor would be too powerful since it creates a scenario of follow the cop (even though its watcher)
Jail keeper balances it because watcher no longer gets results.

As far as 1 shot ninja and 1 shot strongman.....ehhh its in the right direction. I think thats still scum-sided.
But not by as much as original setup.

[mykonian]

I don't think 1 shots help enough here given the easiest way for scum to win only takes 2 nights. I don't think you can cheat the town roles (which also face having to claim on an impending lynch, so won't last the whole game) by taking away ~half their power just like that.

And sorry CFJ, I didn't want to claim a rule where there wasn't one Wasn't sure.

[Umlaut]

I think an unopposed watcher is more dangerous than an unopposed JK, so if I'm choosing between them I'd rather keep the Ninja than the Strongman.

I'm confused about the balance because my understanding is that one JK as the only power role would be balanced (this is one of the newbie setups, right?) It seems like giving town a full watcher with only a 1-shot counter to that should lead to a game that's townsided in comparison. Is there any more fine tuning I can do on this?

[callforjudgement]

I actually think it's possible that full Watcher + full JK versus full Ninja + full Strongman is townsided. If the same member of scum always does the kill, we have a relatively balanced setup (town have one useless power role, plus one full-powered power role that balances the game by itself). As such, if the scum mix things up, it's likely that the game will still be closed to balanced, because we're changing between two power roles with fairly similar win/loss balance every night. Once one scum dies, the town are aware of which power role will work, but that doesn't change things much. However, what

does

help out town a lot is a massclaim; when both town power roles claim, the setup should be fairly evident (especially if a scum has died or there's evidence of an action being interfered with, like a Watcher watching nobody kill their target, or a Jailkeeper's target dying). That's an advantage they don't have in the 1-power-role setup.

However, there's a fairly nasty twist here: once the Ninja dies, if town don't predict the existence of a Strongman, then they may end up accidentally confirming the Strongman as town via the JK action ("I blocked player X but the kill went through anyway, they must be town"). That's something that adds a notable amount of skew (i.e. onesided swing); in most cases nothing will happen, but we get a very lopsided result if that (fairly unlikely) situation actually comes up. Given that Watcher is highly swingy anyway (based on whether they hit), and Jailkeeper is also somewhat swingy (the role gets more powerful as the game goes on, so there's swing based on how long it takes the Jailkeeper to die), we're talking a pretty nastily swingy setup here, possibly too much so.

[Umlaut]

I'm going to wait until you all agree on which direction the setup is unbalanced before I submit another.

[callforjudgement]

It's unbalanced in the direction of being too swingy, which makes the win/loss balance almost irrelevant (because it's likely to be overwhelmed by random events).

[Firebringer]

Limit the Watcher?

[mykonian]

eh, swing in a micro. The lynches are still more swing than the roles here.

I looked through those newbie stats, JK alone does surprisingly well, comparable to a cop alone. Not quite 50% for town, but that's something. It does plummet with a real scum power though. Now the watcher is no cop, he has a target less to get a guilty on, doesn't get innocents. Say he's half a cop. A cop alone makes up about 15-20%. There's no obvious synergy of the watcher with the JK that I can think of, so say a rough estimate of the setup JK/Watcher vs Goons is ~55% for town. That's fair game for me, for ages we passed setups which were apparently 45% for town, but leaves room to give scum something to play with if you'd like. If you give scum a full role, I think you'll just make your work undone. Given there are only so 3 nights to play with, that'd mean a one shot ninja or strongman, if we stick with that idea.

I tend to dislike the ninja, but in this case it can't create a false inno which is about the best case scenario for it. The strongman is fine for claim situations, might be quite potent. Your preference for me. Or you leave it be.

[callforjudgement]

A Watcher is easier to aim than a cop is, but on the other hand it gives town no benefit at all if it misses (whereas a Cop gets a confirmed inno). It's therefore probably weaker than a Cop is, although it's possibly worth more than half? Very swingy, though, because the success case is so much more valuable than the fail case is.

[Umlaut]

Thoughts on JK + 1-shot Watcher + 1-shot Strongman?

[callforjudgement]

I like that, actually. The main issue is that the Strongman can override the JK once their buddy is dead, thus making town think they can't possibly have performed the kill and thus must be town. Perhaps you could make the other scum a Strongman Enabler, so that the Strongman shot can't go off when there's only one scum left?

Not completely willing to sign off on balance just yet (I'm too tired for that), but this is definitely going in the right direction.

[Umlaut]

It just seems like so much has to coincide for that to happen. The goon has to die first, then the JK has to target the strongman on the same night the strongman uses his one shot. I feel like if the Mafia can orchestrate that sequence of events they kind of deserve the win. But I'll wait to hear from the others.

If there was some way the goon's flip could advertise "there's a strongman" without his actually being an enabler, that would resolve your concern as well, but I don't see how to do that within the normal guidelines.

[Firebringer]

Thoughts on JK + 1-shot Watcher + 1-shot Strongman?

I think this is a lot better.
CFJ always has the best words to put into place why these things work out better though.

[mykonian]

uhm, I'm not so sure about this.

Making the watcher one shot means it's all or nothing, now if swing would somehow be the problem, that's hardly a solution. And the one full PR town gets is undermined by a scum PR. This feels very clearly scumsided.

[callforjudgement]

I mean, what we have here is a situation where both of the power roles

normally

do nothing. (Although note that if the scum fakeclaim VT, the 1-shot Watcher is fairly valuable for town purely on the basis of claim believability at lylo, even if they miss,) And the problem with power roles that normally do nothing is, do you balance as though they do nothing, or as though they do something? (It should be noted, incidentally, that the Strongman is much more likely to hit than they would be in a larger setup; smaller player counts make hitting with any role easier, and a 1-shot Strongman is best saved until you have concrete setup spec evidence that this is the right time to use it, which would most likely lead to it being used N3 in this setup. I think that's where mykonian's unease comes from.)

Most of the time this is just a JK+6 versus 2 setup (which is known to be balanced), except with random chances of a huge boost to one side or another from one power role or another, and where town has a slightly better claiming situation. The claiming situation can be fixed via giving scum a low-powered normally-town role (so believable as town alongside a JK, against unknown scum power) which doesn't do anything in context; they'll likely claim it, and the town won't have enough information to know which claims are genuine. The random swing spikes, though, are harder to fix. Overall I'd say this setup is normally moderately townsided, with a small chance of being hugely scumsided, and an even smaller chance of being hugely townsided. Is that acceptable? Probably not, but it's likely to need fewer changes than the previous setups did.

[mykonian]

I think that's where mykonian's unease comes from.

Sorta.

It's much easier to get use out of the strongman than the 1 shot watcher. While both have to guess where the opponent will target, the watcher doesn't know if he'll last the night, is more pressed to actually get their shot in. Further, the JK's power is in situations where you took out one scum. Here in half of the cases, the remaining scum still gets to choose who to shoot despite the JK claiming who they are going to block (the strategy to create inno's), potentially actually giving away the game where town think they have it on lock as a false inno is created.

It's the same thing you run in to every time, scum PR's are so much easier to wield, are so much easier to create impact with. JK alone is balanced, but still slightly scumsided. JK/1shot watcher vs 1 shot strongman has to be way worse in my opinion.

I think if you want to play with the strongman, town can't rely on the JK the way you'd want to, and they should get a full watcher. If you want to play with the 1 shot watcher, the strongman just is too scary for me. The second should be in the 50/55 range, a one shot role and a claim (but no longer in an open game) is going to be within 5% winrate gain. The first setup can't be far off.

[Umlaut]

Out of the setups we've gone over so far, which is the closest to approvable?

[Firebringer]

I am kind of warming up to something like this:

Watcher
2 shot Jailkeeper
5 VTs
1 shot Strongman Goon
1 Goon

or
1 Watcher
1 shot Jailkeeper
5 VTs
1 shot Ninja
1 Goon

[Umlaut]

I can take the latter of those as is, if everyone finds it acceptable.