Fro99er's Mini Normal Review

[Nexus]

Current proposed setup:

1. Town Odd-Night Rolecop (Town 2-shot Rolecop)
2. Town Even-Night Rolecop (Town 2-shot Cop)
3. Town 1-shot Roleblocker
4. Town 1-shot Rolestopper
5. Town Motion Detector (Town Miller)
6-10. VTs

11. Mafia Weak Doctor
12. Mafia Goon
13. Mafia Goon

Mafia will NOT have daytalk, but that will not be announced.

The purpose of this setup is to make people scumhunt, instead of setup speculate. I foresee the Weak Doctor getting rolecopped at some point and surviving to LyLo, which should make people question why the doctor is in LyLo. Rolecops, Roleblockers, and Rolestoppers are often considered more likely to be scum than town.

I have an alternative setup proposed, where 10 of the roles are the same, but three of the town roles are different, in parenthesis if the NRG wants to consider that as a better setup should the first not suffice (I'll change the role PMs if they decide to go that route). Still serves a similar purpose, but let's the cop get a guilty on the doc possibly. Can still see a lylo with a doc/miller/3rd town player.

The weak doctor is basically a goon (they can't protect a scum buddy, because then they die), unless they want to protect a town player for town cred (knowing their team will shoot someone else, but it'll be interesting in mass claim when they keep protecting the wrong player).

1.

Opening posts:

Post 0:

Complete Playerlist

1. Player 1
   
   
2. Player 2
   
   
3. Player 3
   
   
4. Player 4
   
   
5. Player 5
   
   
6. Player 6
   
   
7. Player 7
   
   
8. Player 8
   
   
9. Player 9
   
   
10. Player 10
    
    
11. Player 11
    
    
12. Player 12
    
    
13. Player 13
    
    
    
    +
    = prodded

Alive

Spoiler: 13

1. Player 1
   
   
2. Player 2
   
   
3. Player 3
   
   
4. Player 4
   
   
5. Player 5
   
   
6. Player 6
   
   
7. Player 7
   
   
8. Player 8
   
   
9. Player 9
   
   
10. Player 10
    
    
11. Player 11
    
    
12. Player 12
    
    
13. Player 13

Dead

Spoiler: 0

1. Nobody

Votecounts

Spoiler:

Post 1:

RULES

(taken from

GuyInFreezer

and modified for this game)

General Rules:

1. This game was reviewed for normalcy and balance by [names].
   
   
2. Site-wide rules always apply here.
   
3. If you have a question for me, you can always PM me. If you need to talk to me in thread,
   please bold your question like this so I can see it
   
   
4. You may not use hidden or encrypted text. I decide if the text is small enough to be count as hidden text.
   
5. If you have a power to edit/delete your post, don't do it. If you scumslip, just accept it and eat rope.*
   
6. Play nice. Insulting players with using any form of racial/sexual slur or any kind of derogatory languages or excessive harassing in any way will result in immediate force-replacement.*
   
7. There will be strict adherence to the site policy about prohibiting discussion of ongoing games, which can be found here*
   
8. This means do not discuss other ongoing games in this thread AND do not discuss this game elsewhere.
   
9. Do not quote the PM that moderator sends you. Paraphrasing is fine until a certain level.
   If you're not sure about it, you're always welcome to ask me first before you post.
   *
   
10. Do not use provable randomization in this game. Saying that you rolled a dice is fine, using dice tag is not.
    
11. This is my color (Yellow). Don't use it or colors closely resembling it.
    
    
12. If I find the certain factors/actions damaging the state of the game, I will intervene and/or take action.
    
13. Keep the personal complaint, whatever they may be, outside of the wrong VC/information, private by PMing me.
    
14. If you break these rules, I have full rights to punish you at my will. This can range from simple warning to modkill/force-replace.
    
15. I will always consult a list-mod before performing any modkill.
    
16. VIOLATING THE RULES WITH A STAR (*) WILL CAUSE AN IMMEDIATE FORCE-REPLACE NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCES!
    
    
17. If I feel like it, I always have a full right to add/modify the rules. If I do, I will fully explain the reason behind such action.
    
18. Most importantly, have fun!

Voting and Lynching:

1. You vote by either using bold tag([
   b]Vote: Fro99er[/b
   ]) or using vote tag ([
   vote]Fro99er[/vote
   ]) as such
   Vote: Fro99er
   or VOTE: Fro99er
   
2. Unvote is not required to change your vote. Also, if it looks like a vote for someone, I will count it. No tricking me!
   
3. A player is lynched when the majority votes the same player. Once the player is lynched, the lynchee and the living players may talk until I get back and post the flip.
   
4. If the deadline is reached before the lynch has reached, the day will end with
   No Lynch
   .
   
5. If you're nightkilled, you may post one information-less "bah" post.

Activity and Deadline:

1. Deadline for each day phase is:
   10 days (240 hours)
   .
   
2. If you're on V/LA, please tell me beforehand by either posting it in thread (bolded) or PM to me.
   Any V/LA that lasts longer than 120 hours (=5 RL days, =1/2 of a game day phase) will be a force replace.
   
3. If you don't post here for
   48 real hours
   , I will prod you. Failure to receive prod within
   24 hours
   will cause force-replacement.
   
4. Three prods overall will equate to a force replace.
   
5. If you do not submit an action before the night ends, it will count as
   No Action
   .
   
6. There will be
   deadline extensions
   given in this game only upon the moderators discretion.

Sample Role PM

• You are a
  Vanilla Townie
  .
  
  
  Abilities:
  • You possess no special abilities other than your vote and your voice.
  Win condition:
  
  You are aligned with the
  Town
  and win when all threats to the
  Town
  have been eliminated and at least one
  Town
  -aligned player is alive.

Post 2:

Game Information:

1. This game features 10

Town

aligned players and 3

Mafia

aligned players.
2. Please re-read the rules for activity and deadline. I do not use the standard 14 day, 2-3 night deadlines.

Role PM

• You are a
  Vanilla Townie
  .
  
  
  Abilities:
  • You possess no special abilities other than your vote and your voice.
  Win condition:
  
  You are aligned with the
  Town
  and win when all threats to the
  Town
  have been eliminated and at least one
  Town
  -aligned player is alive.

---------------------------------

Role PM

• You are a
  Town Odd-Night Rolecop
  .
  
  
  Abilities:
  • On odd-numbered nights, you may PM the moderator a targeted player to investigate.
    
  • You will be told either your target's full Role Name or
    No Result
    .
  Win condition:
  
  You are aligned with the
  Town
  and win when all threats to the
  Town
  have been eliminated and at least one
  Town
  -aligned player is alive.

---------------------------------

Role PM

• You are a
  Town Even-Night Rolecop
  .
  
  
  Abilities:
  • On even-numbered nights, you may PM the moderator a targeted player to investigate.
    
  • You will be told either your target's full Role Name or
    No Result
    .
  Win condition:
  
  You are aligned with the
  Town
  and win when all threats to the
  Town
  have been eliminated and at least one
  Town
  -aligned player is alive.

---------------------------------

Role PM

• You are a
  Town 1-shot Rolestopper
  .
  
  
  Abilities:
  • Once per game, at night, you may target one player to Rolestop.
    
  • If successful, that player will be immune to any actions, including kills, performed on them, unless the kill is a strongman kill.
    
  • You will not be told if your Rolestop attempt succeeds.
  Win condition:
  
  You are aligned with the
  Town
  and win when all threats to the
  Town
  have been eliminated and at least one
  Town
  -aligned player is alive.

---------------------------------

Role PM

• You are a
  Town 1-shot Roleblocker
  .
  
  
  Abilities:
  • Once per game, at night, you may target one player to roleblock.
    
  • If successful, that player will not be able to use any Night Actions that night.
    
  • You will not be told if your Roleblock attempt succeeds.
  Win condition:
  
  You are aligned with the
  Town
  and win when all threats to the
  Town
  have been eliminated and at least one
  Town
  -aligned player is alive.

---------------------------------

Role PM

• You are a
  Town Motion Detector
  .
  
  
  Abilities:
  • Once per night you may target a player.
    
  • You will be told either
    You saw motion
    ,
    You did NOT see any motion
    , or
    No Result
    .
  Win condition:
  
  You are aligned with the
  Town
  and win when all threats to the
  Town
  have been eliminated and at least one
  Town
  -aligned player is alive.

---------------------------------

Role PM

• You are a
  Mafia Goon
  .
  
  
  Abilities:
  • You share a Private Topic with your fellow
    Mafioso
    , [names, roles]. You share a PT with them located [link], which you may use prior to game start, and at night.
    
  • Once each night your team has a factional night kill, meaning one of you may target a player to perform a night-kill.
  Win condition:
  
  You are aligned with the
  Mafia
  and win when the
  Mafia
  controls at least 50% of the town.

---------------------------------

Role PM

• You are a
  Mafia Weak Doctor
  .
  
  
  Abilities:
  • You share a Private Topic with your fellow
    Mafioso
    , [names, roles]. You share a PT with them located [link], which you may use prior to game start, and at night.
    
  • Every night phase you may PM the moderator to target ONE player to protect from ONE kill.
    
  • You will not be told whether your protection succeeded, and your target will not know they were targeted or protected.
    
  • If you successfully target a player not aligned with town, you will die.
    
  • Once each night your team has a factional night kill, meaning one of you may target a player to perform a night-kill.
  Win condition:
  
  You are aligned with the
  Mafia
  and win when the
  Mafia
  controls at least 50% of the town.

[mhsmith0]

So town has five mediocre roles, scum has two goons and a troll role. Not sure about balance off the cuff, will mull it over.

[Fro99er]

Yeah, this was the thought behind it

Mafia will NOT have daytalk, but that will not be announced.

The purpose of this setup is to make people scumhunt, instead of setup speculate. I foresee the Weak Doctor getting rolecopped at some point and surviving to LyLo, which should make people question why the doctor is in LyLo. Rolecops, Roleblockers, and Rolestoppers are often considered more likely to be scum than town.

I have an alternative setup proposed, where 10 of the roles are the same, but three of the town roles are different, in parenthesis if the NRG wants to consider that as a better setup should the first not suffice (I'll change the role PMs if they decide to go that route). Still serves a similar purpose, but let's the cop get a guilty on the doc possibly. Can still see a lylo with a doc/miller/3rd town player.

The weak doctor is basically a goon (they can't protect a scum buddy, because then they die), unless they want to protect a town player for town cred (knowing their team will shoot someone else, but it'll be interesting in mass claim when they keep protecting the wrong player).

[mastina]

Overall one rolecop (divided into two halves),
A single rolestop,
A single roleblock,
And a Motion Detector.

While I love the setup, and think it is well-designed, I'm a bit concerned with the balance. The town...really doesn't have much.
Like. Anything. And troll scum roles are pretty strong.

Yet the alternative setup I feel actually swings the other way:
2-shot cop, 2-shot rolecop, miller (which isn't really negative utility), a rolestop, and a roleblock is probably slightly too strong for the town. There's too much synergy. The rolecop confirms the miller beyond any shadow of a doubt, the miller confirms the cop, the cop gets protected by the rolestop, basically giving the town a lot of strength against a scumteam which will feel they have no choice but to keep the cop alive.


I'd go with the first setup, but turn the one-shots into two-shots:
Odd-rolecop,
Even-rolecop (overall one rolecop),
2x Rolestopper,
2x Roleblocker,
Motion Detector.

This gives the town a much better level of flexibility: the extra shots mean that the town is actually

rewarded

for stopping a kill. (If the town stops a kill once, basically the maximum allowed by either of the originally-proposed setups, they gain nothing: they don't get an extra lynch and at some point no-lynch, losing their benefit, or are in mylo, with an extra body alive. They need to stop a kill TWICE for it to be worth it.) It doesn't give them anything overwhelming. But it gives them enough where they stand a chance. (It might end up a scum win depending on the skill level of the players involved, but I think it's closer to balanced than the alternatives.) And this seems to be more in line with what you were aiming for.

[Fro99er]

I can totes agree with that.

I wasn't sure about the shits but I like the rolestopper at minimum 2 for a town protective.

[Fro99er]

OMG shots

[Regfan]

Rulelist is fine though I'd probably recommend making the 'majority' point a little more explained. Normalcy wise it all passes and all the role PMs are fine though I may add a "Or nothing can prevent otherwise" type line to the Mafia role PMs. Rolestopper role PM needs to be made a little clearer, same with motion detecter otherwise they're all fine.

Will look at it for balance later.

[Fro99er]

Can you tell me what needs to be clearer about rolestopper and motion detector PMs? I have used those PMs in my past normals so just curious so i can make them better for future games as well

This is the exact rule set I use in all my normals, but I'll update the majority thing

[Regfan]

I think the motion detectors role PM needs to explain that motion means the player either used an action or had an action used on them, it's not completely clear for a newer player or someone inexperienced with the role and while the "Wiki" helps it's better to have people understand their roles based on the role PM's.

The rolestopped one is fine on another go over.

I'll get around to balance in a few hours.

[Regfan]

I don't think counting the even/odds night rolecops as "1 role" is the right way to go about this, it's highly likely that town will be able to discern that they're both town when claims occur or at least one person with the role will likely town read the other upon claiming and think it being "2 roles" all up is more town sided than a singular town role cop. That said I'd agree with both Msmith & Mastin that towns power seems to be spread pretty thin here and I don't think going towards the second setup is the solution and generally prefer to stay away from cop setups if possible.

I like Mastins solution of amending the Rolestopper and Roleblockers to 2 shot and her reasoning behind it with town gain little with 1 blocked kill in comparison with the potential for 2 is a very sound logic that said I worry the amended setup could potentially end up too town sided here since it's going to be rather difficult for scum to mslynch any of the 5 town power roles and information determined from several of the roles could put town in a decent position, I feel a scum lynch D1 inside that setup makes for an almost locked town victory with scum having little wiggle room.

I think my preference is seeing 1 of the 5 roles removed and the others slightly strengthened ie. Remove Odd night rolecop and turn Even night into a full rolecop or remove Roleblocker and turn it into a full Rolestopper, something along those lines.

Curious as to Mhsmith & Mastins thoughts on that as well as your own Frogger.

[Regfan]

Like the way I see it mafia need 4 mslynches inside the game to win, if mafia gets lynched D1 and shoot a VT N1 they've pretty much already lost, to win the game they'd either have to mslynch all 4 remaining VT's or get a PR lynched and with 2 rolecops in play it's pretty difficult for scum to fake claim any role here and get away with it making it pretty hard to get a PR lynched, I think reducing towns PR's by one and thus increasing the VT's by 1 is the solution.

[Fro99er]

My response would be why are you just assuming town will recognize all the PRs as town PRs?

If anything, someone role cops a weak doctor and town normally jump to the conclusion a weak doctor is town. If the weak doctor claims to visit a townie that the motion detector detects, that basically lock towns him from a claim standpoint.

Further, rolestopper and roleblockers are often seen as scum roles more so than town roles. Imagine if the roleblocker blocks the doctor from protecting a townie and claims it.

There's so mny things that could go wrong for town here I'm not seeing why we're just accepting all the town PRs will be recognized as town PRs and all the scum ones recognized as scum.

[Fro99er]

Further, rolestopper and roleblockers are often seen as scum roles more so than town roles.

And rolecop can even be considered so as well

[Regfan]

My argument isn't that town power roles will be read as town via claims and mafia ones will be read as mafia upon claiming, my argument is this setup as it currently stands does not allow scum (The Goons ie. 2/3 of them) to fake claim at all, rolecops are effectively huge counters to fake claims, roleblocker, motion detector and rolestopper are all things that can catch fake claims. This means that the scum doctor is the only real person that'll be among the scum fake claims inside the game, this means that whenever a massclaim occurs town will have a decent idea that majority (if not all) of the power roles claimed are probably town and mean that mafia are predominately going to be relying on mslynching inside the VT's of which I don't think there's enough.

Happy to wait to see where Mhsmith & Mastina land on this.

[Fro99er]

Regfan, I'm curious to your thoughts on the setup of this game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=62192

Town had Odd-night/even-night rolecop, two backup ICs, one encrypto-enabler was all town had vs scum encryptor, backup encryptor, goon

wouldn't that suffer the same problem of the rolecops being able to prevent fake claims from scum? But scum had a perfect win, and everyone said that setup was scumsided, so I'm curious why this is overly town-sided?

[Fro99er]

(relative to that setup)

[Fro99er]

I mean if I just gave scum daytalk does that balance this setup with the two-shot stuff? Is that the difference?

[mastina]

Honestly while I recognize daytalk does have a marginal boost to scum's abilities I mostly see it as net-null because it takes competent scum players to actually take advantage of daytalk and if they don't talk during the day even if they have access to it then there's literally no difference at all. If adding it would satisfy Regfan's fears, then I'd be okay with it but I don't mind either way.

But I do think Regfan underestimates the scum's strength here and overestimates the town's strength here in general. The town has roles which are

situationally

powerful--but for them to exploit this, they not only need to have luck to have the opportunity where that situation will arise, but ALSO the skill level necessary to RECOGNIZE their roles as being situationally powerful. That is exactly the type of town strength I think is good to have. It takes zero skill level (essentially) to aim a cop correctly. It takes incredible skill level to utilize a Motion Detector properly.

Under the assumption of average level of play (as in, neither best case nor worst case for player level skill on either side), I would call the 2x version of the first setup balanced. Even if the town holds significantly stronger players than normal, I don't see them curbstomping the scum: their roles are only situationally powerful, so even a skilled town won't be able to quickly eliminate the scum.

[Regfan]

I think daykill can be very powerful in the right scums hands, that said I don't think daykill does anything to solve the problem for it here.

My fear and huge concern with this setup is that it allows scum very little counterplay to the town, scum are incapable of winning the game via fake claiming with the exception of the Odd night doctors claim since scum are always just going to get caught when fake claiming (Both rolecops are very simple to use, roleblocker and them claiming an action is confirmation they're mafia, rolestoper & motion detector can prove claims fake too), you can state that "People need to use their roles well here" but that's not entirely true when it comes to dealing with scum fake claims at all. When scum have as little options as that and no real actual power themselves town are in a very favourable position, particularly if a VT ever gets shot inside the game. Town will be able to determine there's maximum 1 scum inside the power roles and easily be able to focus in lynching inside the VT-Goon pool.

I really think the amended setup is horrifically town sided and think a role needs to be cut to make this balanced, I'd prefer one of the rolecops being kicked to the curb and wouldn't mind the other one being turned into to a full rolecop since that also solves the problem where they effectively confirm each other as town. I'd also settle with keeping both and removing the roleblocker.

I expect Mhsmith to have a similar thought on this.

[Regfan]

Regfan, I'm curious to your thoughts on the setup of this game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=62192

Town had Odd-night/even-night rolecop, two backup ICs, one encrypto-enabler was all town had vs scum encryptor, backup encryptor, goon

wouldn't that suffer the same problem of the rolecops being able to prevent fake claims from scum? But scum had a perfect win, and everyone said that setup was scumsided, so I'm curious why this is overly town-sided?

I don't think this setup compares to that one at all, town effectively had the odd/even rolecop duo there and 3 named townies which differ quite a lot from rolestopper/roleblocker/motion detector, it also mean that outside of the rolecops scum were able to fake claim whereas here there's plenty more things preventing them from doing so. All that said I'm not even a fan of that setup? I think there's too many attempts at "Trying to be clever" with the modding here and when most people join normal games they just want a straightforward simple game of mafia.

[Regfan]

Daykill should read as daytalk, no idea how that was mistyped.

[Fro99er]

I'll let you guys duke it out I guess?

This doesn't have anything to do with "clever modding" and more to do with focusing on the fundamentals -- scumhunting.

I don't see why the rolecops clear each other either. I've put a scum odd-night and a town even-night of the same role together before

[Regfan]

I don't think you're grasping the point I'm trying to make here which sadly means I'm probably not explaining it well enough so I'll give it one more go.

Mafia have no

actual

power inside this game, the only decision they have to make to deal with town PR's and players is the night kill - fact.
Mafia will have real difficulty fake claiming a power role and getting away with it outside of the Mafia Doctor given town PR's catch fake claims well - fact.
Mafia require 4 mslynches inside the game to win - fact.

So from the above, whenever a massclaim occurs there'll be between 5-6 PR claims in total being Motion Detector/Limited Roleblocker/Rolestopper/Odd & Even Rolecops/Weak Doctor, town will be able to determine pretty easily from that there's really maximum 1 fake claim inside there just from a balance perspective; 4 nerfed roles do not make a town core, this means it's going to be pretty difficult for scum to get a mslynch inside the PR's this game until it ends up being a case of "Find out which PR is fake" and given how Weak Doctor has to "clear" a player nightly if he maintains that claim it's not going to be pretty.

Effectively I think that if just

one

thing goes well for the town; ie Lynching mafia D1, VT dying N1 town flat out just win eventually here.

I think a town PR really has to be removed here and I'm fine with you upping the power from limited from one to full to even it out.

[mastina]

Mafia have actual power, Regfan.
It's called the nightkill, as you yourself note.

That is a VERY strong tool.
VERY, very strong tool.
I don't think you're giving the scumteam's innate advantages due respect here: mafia are the informed minority: they NOT ONLY know which players are town, BUT ALSO know which claims are real and which claims are bullshit.

The town is the uninformed majority: NOT ONLY do they not know who their allies are, BUT ALSO they don't know which role claims to trust--and to be honest. They probably are going to mislynch their own roles. There's a 50/50 chance of a rolecop getting lynched. 75% chance the roleblocker gets lynched. Still a chance the rolestopper gets lynched especially if someone is stupid enough to accidentally think rolestopper = roleblocker. (You'd think that wouldn't happen, but it does. A lot. A LOT, a lot.) This, assuming the town all claim truthfully. If the town tries to hide their modifiers (and many town players when claiming will do so!), it makes them think they're even STRONGER. If instead of "odd rolecop", "even rolecop", "2x roleblock", and "2x rolestop", you got claims of "Rolecop, CCing Rolecop, Roleblocker, Rolestopper", you'd have a town eating itself alive and yet that is not at all an unlikely scenario...

...Because the town is working from an imperfect starting position (lacking information) whereas scum are working from a perfect position. When overlayed with the scum controlling the kill, the scum have a lot of influence on the game.

Mafia do not need a safeclaim outside of their given role--nor should they need one. This is not a theme game. It is a normal game. In a normal game, most players are vanilla. And mafia certainly don't need help. They have plenty. They have the insider knowledge, and they have the nightkill to bolster that. They can influence and control things, how the game goes, because they know who is town and who is scum and what claims are coming from town, all things the town does not have.

Mafia require 4 mislynches.
Yet you're assuming the town can't or won't mislynch their own power roles--and that's simply an unrealistic assumption. And the town can mislynch people outside the power roles even if they have the setup figured out.

I do not think the game will be hard against mafia.
Quite the opposite.
If any alignment will have difficulty, it'll be the town.

[Fro99er]

I don't think you're grasping the point I'm trying to make here which sadly means I'm probably not explaining it well enough so I'll give it one more go.

Mafia have no

actual

power inside this game, the only decision they have to make to deal with town PR's and players is the night kill - fact.
Mafia will have real difficulty fake claiming a power role and getting away with it outside of the Mafia Doctor given town PR's catch fake claims well - fact.
Mafia require 4 mslynches inside the game to win - fact.

So from the above, whenever a massclaim occurs there'll be between 5-6 PR claims in total being Motion Detector/Limited Roleblocker/Rolestopper/Odd & Even Rolecops/Weak Doctor, town will be able to determine pretty easily from that there's really maximum 1 fake claim inside there just from a balance perspective; 4 nerfed roles do not make a town core, this means it's going to be pretty difficult for scum to get a mslynch inside the PR's this game until it ends up being a case of "Find out which PR is fake" and given how Weak Doctor has to "clear" a player nightly if he maintains that claim it's not going to be pretty.

Effectively I think that if just

one

thing goes well for the town; ie Lynching mafia D1, VT dying N1 town flat out just win eventually here.

I think a town PR really has to be removed here and I'm fine with you upping the power from limited from one to full to even it out.

O I get exactly what you are saying


In that other game town had three confirmable roles and two rolecops.

Mafia's only "power" was daytalk. And everyone said it was scumsided


Here I have the same two rolecop setup, no town confirmable roles, and the mafia non-goon role is arguably going to be seen as a town role if rolecopped.