Fro99er/Alisae's Large Normal

[Nexus]

Post 0:

Complete Playerlist

1. Player 1
   
   
2. Player 2
   
   
3. Player 3
   
   
4. Player 4
   
   
5. Player 5
   
   
6. Player 6
   
   
7. Player 7
   
   
8. Player 8
   
   
9. Player 9
   
   
10. Player 10
    
    
11. Player 11
    
    
12. Player 12
    
    
13. Player 13
    
    
14. Player 14
    
    
15. Player 15
    
    
16. Player 16
    
    
17. Player 17
    
    
    
    +
    = prodded

Alive

Spoiler: 17

1. Player 1
   
   
2. Player 2
   
   
3. Player 3
   
   
4. Player 4
   
   
5. Player 5
   
   
6. Player 6
   
   
7. Player 7
   
   
8. Player 8
   
   
9. Player 9
   
   
10. Player 10
    
    
11. Player 11
    
    
12. Player 12
    
    
13. Player 13
    
    
14. Player 14
    
    
15. Player 15
    
    
16. Player 16
    
    
17. Player 17

Dead

Spoiler: 0

1. Nobody

Votecounts

Spoiler:

Rules

General

1. We (Alisae and Fro99er) are the co-mods. We use the hydra Siblings Quarrel for moderating purposes. What we say goes. We reserve the right to change the rules or modkill/force-replace players as I see fit. If this happens, all players will be made aware of this fact.
   
2. If you need to communicate to us in private, please send a PM to the Siblings Quarrel hydra OR to both Alisae and Fro99er.
   
3. We are known to make mistakes. If you see one, let us know.
   
4. Preface all in-thread messages to the mod with
   @Mod
   .
   
5. Punishment for breaking any of the following rules is on a case-by-case basis and is therefore not fixed.
   
6. This is a game. Play to win, and have fun, because what’s the point if it’s not fun?
   
7. DO NOT TALK ABOUT ONGOING GAMES.
   
   
8. All Global Site Rules Apply

Posting and Voting

1. We hereby reserve the colour
   #FF00FF
   for mod use. Don't use it.
   
2. Do not use invisible, encrypted, or ridiculously small text. Everything posted in the game thread should be public.
   
3. All votes must be written in
   bold
   or use the VOTE: Player tag. Unvotes are helpful, but not necessary.
   
4. Votes may
   not
   be contained inside quote, code, area, or spoiler tags.
   
5. A lynch is reached when a majority of all players, half players alive plus one rounded down, are voting for the same target.
   
6. If a majority is not reached by the deadline, a No Lynch will occur.

Activity and Deadlines

1. This game runs at faster pace than typical for Normal games, each day phase lasts 10 in real life days, and nights will last 2 in real life days.
   
   
2. Failure to post within 48 hours without advance notice will result in a prod.
   
3. You have 24 hours to respond to a prod, lest you be replaced. Regardless, three prods will result in a force-replacement.
   
4. If your role gives you access to a Private Topic, you may request that a partner be poked. This will not count as an official prod.
   
5. Please give notice of V/LA in-thread or via PM.
   
6. If you are going to be V/LA for more than half a game day (5 RL days), that will count as a force replace.
   
7. A missed Night Action will result in a No Action.

Game Setup

1. This game will start with 17 players and is confirmed as one town faction and one mafia faction.
   
2. Please see the Normal Game Wiki for further description of what constitutes a normal game on MafiaScum.
   
3. Mafia team has day chat.
   
4. Each player may use at most one action at night, including kills.

Spoiler: Sample Role PM

You are a Citizen You aren't special. You only have your voice and your vote.

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

Setup

Town (13):

2-shot Jailkeeper
2-shot Private Thread Cop
2-shot Gunsmith
Miller Neighbor (Hood A)
Miller Neighbor (Hood A)
Mason
Mason
6 VTs

Mafia:

Traitor Neighbor (Hood B)
Traitor Neighbor (Hood B)
2-shot Rolecop
Traitor-Enabler

If the traitor-enabler dies, the Traitors no longer possess traitor ability (which means they essentially become goons and lose all traitor abilities meaning they

can

make night kills, they join the main mafia PT, they don't get endgamed if they are the only scum alive, and they report as DO have a gun to a gunsmith). I talked this over with mastina -- can we request her as a reviewer?

PMs:

You are a Citizen You aren't special. You only have your voice and your vote.

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

You are a 2-shot Jailkeeper During the night, you may target one other person that is not yourself. If successful, they will be protected from all kills, but will also be roleblocked. This may only be used twice per game.

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

You are a 2-shot PT Cop During the night, you may target one person. If successful, you will learn if they are part of a game-relevant PT. This may only be used twice per game.

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

You are a 2-shot Gunsmith During the night, you may target one person. If successful, you will learn if they have a gun. This may only be used twice per game.

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

You are a Mason You are a Mason with X You may find your masonry here. This topic will be open at all times. You win when all threats to town have been eliminated.

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

You are a Miller Neighbour You will return a guilty result to Cop investigations. You are also apart of a neighbourhood which you may find here. This topic will be open at all times.

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

--

You are a Traitor Neighbour You know X, Y, Z (other traitor) to be mafia aligned, but your mafia identity is unknown to X, Y . As a traitor: If you are the last surviving member of your team, you will be automatically endgamed. You may not submit any factional kills. You return "Mafia" to Cops, "No gun" to Gunsmiths, and "Traitor" to Rolecops. You do not have access to the main Mafia PT. However, you are also part of a Neighbourhood with Z. You may find your neighbourhood here.

You win when your faction controls 50% of the votes. | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

You are a 2-shot Rolecop You are aligned with X who is a Traitor-Enabler . You may talk here at all times. During the night, you may target one person. You will learn their role. This may only be used twice per game. You also know there are two Traitors in the game.

You win when your faction controls 50% of the votes. | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

You are a Traitor Enabler You are aligned with X who is a 2-shot Rolecop You may talk here at all times. You also know there are two Traitors in the game. If you were to die, the Traitors will lose all traitor abilities including joining the main Mafia PT.

You win when your faction controls 50% of the votes. | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay so without talking about balance for the start the setup feels really horrible.
If a traitor scums it the fuck up on day 1 and gets double investigated and cleared they can then basically walk to lylo
I'm not a huge fan of all the potential for false negatives, not a fan of the fact that from mafia's pov the proper move is to hardbus the traitor enabler so they get all their scum as full scum even though it hurts them bad

I'm not sure I'd ever pass this

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I'm okay on principle with the idea of double traitor and I like that but I do not the current mechanic around recruitment and I feel like it's way outside the bounds of what is expected in a normal game.

[mastina]

I don't have concerns with normalcy (I think the traitor enabler works), and on a skim the roles/rules look good.
I'm a bit concerned balance-wise though. The gunsmith is largely useless to the town--by the time it's likely to have its full utility (i.e., the traitor enabler is lynched), it'll have burned its shots.

Similarly, the PT-cop is almost detrimental to the town. It gets a guilty on the masons, and it also will end up pseudo-clearing the traitors if they claim their neighborhood. I realize the intention of the mafia-mafia (well, traitor-traitor in this case) neighborhood is for them to be able to communicate to each other, but while they are technically guilties, they can just truthfully claim they hold a neighborhood and this will likely cause townreads on one or both of them. Furthermore, be it pre-conversion OR post-conversion (doesn't matter), the town is going to see one of them flip and think the other one is almost certainly town. They might (incorrectly) make the assumption that it was traitor-groupscum, but mhsmith has the stats (plus I have my own experience) which tells me otherwise; the town might catch one but won't catch them both.

Even if you made the PT-cop a full rather than 2-shot, that wouldn't fix the problem.
I'd drop the scum-scum neighborhood altogether.

Basically what I'd like to see:
-Make the gunsmith full
-Drop the scum traitor neighborhood
-Make the PT-cop either full or at least three-shot
-Maybe even bump the power of the jailkeeper up.

I just think that in the current setup, the town is hilariously underequipped.

[RadiantCowbells]

A Traitor is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, as long as it:
is Mafia-aligned
knows the identities of all of the Mafia team
identity is not known by the Mafia team, although they should know a Traitor exists
cannot be recruited to join the rest of the Mafia team, and (unless Bulletproof) is killed if shot

EVen if technically as an enabler that would be 'normal' it's not normal. I will not pass this as is.

[mastina]

Oh, I also just noticed the town's neighbors are

miller

neighbors.
Millers return guilties to gunsmiths as well as cops, so that means the same problem the PT cop has also applies to the gunsmith.

Now I'm all for a game where the town's investigative roles get innocents on scum and guilties on town--if the game has the appropriate balance to accommodate that.
But right now literally the only accommodation against that is the 2x jailkeeper, which is ridiculously weak.

I'd maybe call:
Masons x 2
Neighbors x 2
Gunsmith
PT Cop
Jailkeeper

vs.
Traitors x 2
Mafia Rolecop x2 (even then that might be a bit much)
Mafia Traitor-enabler

...As balanced.

I don't have the same problem RadiantCowbells does with the mechanic. But I do think the town absolutely needs far more power than they have in order to support using said mechanic, because even the above might be light on the town's side.

[RadiantCowbells]

If you do as one role the traitor enabler and one role your modified trabler I am willing to pass that counting the traitor as greylist.

Currently the town is a joke too, yeah.

[mastina]

A Traitor is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, as long as it:
cannot be recruited to join the rest of the Mafia team, and (unless Bulletproof) is killed if shot
EVen if technically as an enabler that would be 'normal' it's not normal. I will not pass this as is.

The counterpoint to this:

An Enabler has no active abilities, but are told what kind of power role they enable. If they die, that type of ability may no longer be used.

This effect applies to all players with the enabled ability. A Doctor Enabler's death will cause every Doctor in the game to become useless.

Normal Guidelines

This role modifier is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, both with and without its primary role present. Enablers should be used for specific roles, not types of roles (e.g., Doctor instead of protective) and must be self-aware.

From the Enabler page. If the enabled ability is 'traitor', then a traitor ceases to be a traitor.
If a traitor ceases to be a traitor, then they become traitor - traitor. A mafia-aligned player that is without abilities = goon. So traitor, minus being a traitor, creates a goon.

This is why I don't have an issue with normalcy.
I do have an issue with balance though.

[RadiantCowbells]

Sure. It's technically normal. But, no.

[RadiantCowbells]

If you bring it to Nexus and he okays it I'll go with it but I really, really, really don't think this belongs in the normal queue.

[RadiantCowbells]

In fact it's not technically normal.

cannot be recruited to join the rest of the Mafia team

This should take precedence. Most players' idea of what normal is would have this take precedence.

[RadiantCowbells]

It's true that most of the real abuse cases only occur after a traitor enabler flip: aka town already knows that bullshit happened

but in general it's really questionable to have a slot give a false inno and then be required to be lynched for endgame wincon. it makes all your innos worthless.

traitor being inno is fine because you can win without lynching the slot, but it eventually being added to the must-be-lynched-for-win group is bad.

[Fro99er]

If you bring it to Nexus and he okays it I'll go with it but I really, really, really don't think this belongs in the normal queue.

I asked nexus about this several weeks ago and said it seemed right (what mastina's saying)

[Fro99er]

In fact it's not technically normal.

cannot be recruited to join the rest of the Mafia team

This should take precedence. Most players' idea of what normal is would have this take precedence.

that's not a recruitment though

when the traitor-enabler dies, the traitors are then goons, so it's not a recruitment of a traitor, but the traitor losing it's abilities

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay, but it's just bad.

This feels like a way to backdoor in a godfather.

[Fro99er]

how so?

[Fro99er]

Anyway, here's also what mastina said when I asked about this a month or so ago

However, if the Mafia Traitor is just a Mafia Traitor, and your intention is in fact that upon the death of the traitor enabler for the traitor to stop being a traitor, then I believe the traitor would join the mafia team and become a goon. I mean. Alignment changes aren't allowed in Normals, so it's not like the traitor can become a vanilla townie upon the death of the traitor-enabler. Yet the traitor's abilities are:
-Not being able to kill (natural immunity to gunsmith)
-Not being able to communicate
-Being endgamed if the last scum alive thanks to not being able to kill
-Knowing who the scumteam are.

These are the things which I think of as being enabled by a traitor-enabler.
So upon the death of the traitor-enabler, all but the last would go away I'd think...leaving a traitor who is, in fact, now a Vanilla Mafiate...aka, a Goon.

tl;dr: Ambiguous, but if it's what the mod wants, the answer

should

be yes.

[mastina]

Anyway, here's also what mastina said when I asked about this a month or so ago

However, if the Mafia Traitor is just a Mafia Traitor, and your intention is in fact that upon the death of the traitor enabler for the traitor to stop being a traitor, then I believe the traitor would join the mafia team and become a goon. I mean. Alignment changes aren't allowed in Normals, so it's not like the traitor can become a vanilla townie upon the death of the traitor-enabler. Yet the traitor's abilities are:
-Not being able to kill (natural immunity to gunsmith)
-Not being able to communicate
-Being endgamed if the last scum alive thanks to not being able to kill
-Knowing who the scumteam are.

These are the things which I think of as being enabled by a traitor-enabler.
So upon the death of the traitor-enabler, all but the last would go away I'd think...leaving a traitor who is, in fact, now a Vanilla Mafiate...aka, a Goon.

tl;dr: Ambiguous, but if it's what the mod wants, the answer

should

be yes.

And I stand by that answer, but I also stand by my stance that the setup you've given containing this mechanic is as it currently is horribly, tremendously, scumsided and that the town needs a severe boost in power and the scum a nerf in power in order for the mechanic to work.

To put it another way--I think that the mechanic you've created,

in of itself

, is enough power for the mafia altogether. The town doesn't need negative utilities to lessen their powers (miller); the town doesn't need gated roles to lessen their powers (2x); the scum don't need roles to boost their power (neighborhood, maybe rolecop). Because the mafia already have an innately strong, powerful mechanic at their disposal.

[Fro99er]

Oh I never disagreed with your assessment it's scumsided.

[RadiantCowbells]

The answer is that I don't think that traitor should be enabled just like I don't think innocent child or mason should be enabled. It's a fundamental property of a role with different informational requirements that you can't just change midgame. If it weren't for the interplay between the investigative roles and the traitors it wouldn't be such a big deal but I don't think this setup is at all fair for town simply because of how far from normal the traitors currently function, unless you just throw a shitton of power onto town to make up for it in which case it's hardly a normal game at all.

[RadiantCowbells]

I will never change my mind on this. If Nexus says that it's okay I'll step down from reviewing this and bring this up in the NRG because I don't like this mechanic in a normal game whatsoever.

[Fro99er]

alright, we'll abandon the game

[RadiantCowbells]

At the very least all the information about this mechanic would need to be public knowledge.

[Fro99er]

nah we'll just scrap it

[Nexus]

wait so what is the problem

you want a traitor enabler which would make a traitor a 'mafia x' if it dies?

no.