Newbie 1806 - The Ffery Garden: GAME OVER!

[Miles Edgeworth]

Thanks guys. Was definitely a fun challenge over here. Peri was a wonderful partner and y'all were a great set of opponents

[RadiantCowbells]

I honestly hadn't read it man. I just wanted everyone to lay off and give me a few days.

[fferyllt]

Mod Notes: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=72261
Dead/Spectator Thread: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=72394
Mafia Thread: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=72262

[Miles Edgeworth]

Also sorry for cheesy looking VLA. I wasn't gonna say anything and just play but since the game is over, no need. Would have ended Monday.

[PersephoneSidekick]

Okay, topic of Wheme: Frustratingly unhelpful != scum. The last minute vote that everybody is upset about is relatively consistent with his stated opinions. He, like me, thought the scumteam was Una/Why so he didn't care that much which one was lynched first. I think he declares and votes on reads, without explaining them; this is anti-town but NAI. The actual reads themselves are plausible reads. I see him as very very null and since I actively scumread Una, he's a much safer lynch to me.

I townread Whale and Miles and mildly scumread Miles, so Wheme loses out by a bit. If Una is cleared, then by POE Wheme is guilty with Miles and I'd be willing to vote him. But for now, I'm very worried that lynching Wheme might lose the game.

I'll make a post about Una soon after I finish a short meeting.

I was actually expecting rc to lynch persp based on the slip here.

What'd I do?

[RadiantCowbells]

Anyway, well played to both scum. I wish I got to play lylo.

[mhsmith0]

Subject: Newbie 1806 - Gaia's Humor, Gardener's Bane

I find mhsmith's lack of discussion of the BP-claim strategy very compelling evidence that he is a Town Cop or Town Doctor.
mhsmith didn't actively propose the BP-claim strategy at any point, and only very passingly mentioned it during day 1.

I find this to be compelling evidence because:

1: The BP-claim strategy is demonstrably pro-town, both in terms of data collected (see this page on the wiki: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Matrix6) and in abstract strategic terms. In Setup A (BP/Jailer/RB), the BP claim allows the jailer to choose from one fewer person to target, since the BP has no night actions which need preventing and is in no need of saving. In Setup 3 (BP/Goon/Tracker); and in Setup C (Doc/Tracker/Goon), the lack of a BP claim allows the Tracker to infer the setup and thus claim safely, since the mafia don't have a roleblocker for the doctor. It's thus beneficial for the BP to always claim on day 1, in order to allow the PRs to take their actions optimally.
2: mhsmith is very aware of the BP-claim strategy and its benefits for town. In addition to moderating Matrix6-formatted Newbie games in the past, he posted a topic on the subject here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=71440 where he expresses concern over the strength of the strategy.

We know that mhsmith is town, so why didn't he encourage the BP strategy? Possibly he feels that he can keep the game "pure" from the quasi-solvable nature of the BP-claim strategy, which in theory makes for a better newbie experience. But he's also playing to win, and trying to teach newbies how to do the same. I think if he didn't know that a BP

weren't

in the game, he would have at least proactively mentioned the strategy instead of having WhyMafia bring it up, and he would have encouraged it during the pivotal part of the end of day 1, where the town wasn't sure what to do and didn't have great leads.

I think it thus follows that mhsmith knows a Bulletproof Townie isn't in the game, which he can only know by being a town power role which cannot coexist with the BP: Town Cop or Town Doctor. We don't know which one he is, since both can exist without a roleblocker (just not together).

I think mhsmith is almost certainly the kill now.

Lol

Caught for the wrong reasons

FTR, I've talked on site about it, and I think there are some benefits to town but also some severe detriments. And, frankly, being outed BP is imply not a fun experience for a newbie. I brought it up MORE than I normally would just because the game was so dead and unproductive.

[RadiantCowbells]

You were obv as fuck pr by the way

[mhsmith0]

You were obv as fuck pr by the way

What in partuclar made you say that?

[RadiantCowbells]

can't point to anything just knew it the whole game

[Cabd]

Okay, topic of Wheme: Frustratingly unhelpful != scum. The last minute vote that everybody is upset about is relatively consistent with his stated opinions. He, like me, thought the scumteam was Una/Why so he didn't care that much which one was lynched first. I think he declares and votes on reads, without explaining them; this is anti-town but NAI. The actual reads themselves are plausible reads. I see him as very very null and since I actively scumread Una, he's a much safer lynch to me.

I townread Whale and Miles and mildly scumread Miles, so Wheme loses out by a bit. If Una is cleared, then by POE Wheme is guilty with Miles and I'd be willing to vote him. But for now, I'm very worried that lynching Wheme might lose the game.

I'll make a post about Una soon after I finish a short meeting.

I was actually expecting rc to lynch persp based on the slip here.

What'd I do?

You mentioned miles twice in two seperate types of read. It comes off as even if you didn't do it that way, like your been trying to figure out where to slot players and moved stuff around. Usually that kind of thought process doesn't come from a town mindset whose reads come from their honest thoughts. It comes from scum shaping their thoughts based on their perception of consensus.

[fferyllt]

I thought the mafia team did a great job of analyzing and planning during the night phases and had a good day game, too.

One of the most important skills for town players to develop is finding town motivation in the chaotic thought process that town players tend to have, especially newer town players.

And being extremely careful during lylo/mylo situations not to give mafia the opportunity to quicklynch early.

The former comes with practice. The latter usually comes with experience.

I enjoyed moderating the game for you and watching how players went about the game!

I hope you'll hang around! I'd like a chance to play a game with you, too!

If you have any questions for me, I'll be happy to give a shot at answering them.

[mhsmith0]

can't point to anything just knew it the whole game

Well that's nit really something I can learn from then

Unfortunate it wasn't tracker/doctor but oh well

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay, topic of Wheme: Frustratingly unhelpful != scum. The last minute vote that everybody is upset about is relatively consistent with his stated opinions. He, like me, thought the scumteam was Una/Why so he didn't care that much which one was lynched first. I think he declares and votes on reads, without explaining them; this is anti-town but NAI. The actual reads themselves are plausible reads. I see him as very very null and since I actively scumread Una, he's a much safer lynch to me.

I townread Whale and Miles and mildly scumread Miles, so Wheme loses out by a bit. If Una is cleared, then by POE Wheme is guilty with Miles and I'd be willing to vote him. But for now, I'm very worried that lynching Wheme might lose the game.

I'll make a post about Una soon after I finish a short meeting.

I was actually expecting rc to lynch persp based on the slip here.

What'd I do?

You mentioned miles twice in two seperate types of read. It comes off as even if you didn't do it that way, like your been trying to figure out where to slot players and moved stuff around. Usually that kind of thought process doesn't come from a town mindset whose reads come from their honest thoughts. It comes from scum shaping their thoughts based on their perception of consensus.

I saw this in postgame for the record. I believe I would have been likely to see it once I systematically went through scumteam possibilities.
I can't say whether it would have made us win but there's definitely signs that I can see and I don't think this game was necessarily a wash once I got the right first scumread.

[Miles Edgeworth]

For the record, I have no doubt that we were in big trouble if we didn't get the hammer there. I'm not sure if RC would come out of his funk or the rest of y'all would turn on us. The game felt runaway for scum but we were too clean for too long - Peri even noted that in our chat (shouts to us pulling off the clean slate btw!!!)

[PersephoneSidekick]

Okay, topic of Wheme: Frustratingly unhelpful != scum. The last minute vote that everybody is upset about is relatively consistent with his stated opinions. He, like me, thought the scumteam was Una/Why so he didn't care that much which one was lynched first. I think he declares and votes on reads, without explaining them; this is anti-town but NAI. The actual reads themselves are plausible reads. I see him as very very null and since I actively scumread Una, he's a much safer lynch to me.

I townread Whale and Miles and mildly scumread Miles, so Wheme loses out by a bit. If Una is cleared, then by POE Wheme is guilty with Miles and I'd be willing to vote him. But for now, I'm very worried that lynching Wheme might lose the game.

I'll make a post about Una soon after I finish a short meeting.

I was actually expecting rc to lynch persp based on the slip here.

What'd I do?

You mentioned miles twice in two seperate types of read. It comes off as even if you didn't do it that way, like your been trying to figure out where to slot players and moved stuff around. Usually that kind of thought process doesn't come from a town mindset whose reads come from their honest thoughts. It comes from scum shaping their thoughts based on their perception of consensus.

Wow, I just noticed the typo. It was a mistake but it very plausibly reflected my editing process. That was the hardest part of playing scum for me was that I had to proofread so hard which is really hard when I have a bad health day. I feel like I might have inevitably gotten caught if this went on too much longer just because I was getting so tired.

[Cabd]

Noticing the small things is usually where gotchas come from.

Fferyllt and I go way back and we've both caught people like this and be caught like it.

It happens to almost everyone at some point.

[PersephoneSidekick]

But yeah, I knew this might be our last chance; I reloaded the page so many times today waiting to see if anybody was going to unvote. I'm still giddy from the adrenaline.

[morph the cat]

In a lot of ways, this hydra might as well fill in for both of our main accounts.

Playing together these past 3-4 years has led to a lot of mind melding and synchronizing.

[mhsmith0]

I will say, for what it's worth, that as scum you'll usually get more of a challenge from town. I tried fairly hard to make people care on day one and it just didn't really take. Relatively frustrating experience on my end. Cankles was obviously the most vocal "to hell with trying" voice, but it was a collective thing as much as anything else. Not really sure what I can do in a situation like that.

[fferyllt]

No matter how smooth and easy a mafia win looks from the outside, from the inside it usually feels like a mad dash and a graceless slide under the wire with town hot on your heels.


Or maybe that's just me.

[mhsmith0]

I mean my scum wins are few and far between so I don't really know of what you speak

Newbie 1714 was basically the only one I'd say was "easy". Star Fox on MU sort of was, but everyone knew I was probably scum, but was desperately hoping my fake cop claim would help them out (all my peeks were accurate though )

[Cabd]

No matter how smooth and easy a mafia win looks from the outside, from the inside it usually feels like a mad dash and a graceless slide under the wire with town hot on your heels.


Or maybe that's just me.

Only outside of morph. Inside of morph the psychedelics kick in and it's a roaring rampage of fun.

But yeah. Some players have a preference in alingment. Others don't. But it's a good idea to get a few games of each under your belt before you sign up for any games with modified mechanics. Not to mention even the normal games here are exciting if played right.

[mhsmith0]

Actually even in 1714 I worked my ass off night two PR hunting. The day game was lucky to have town tearing itself apart and all I had to do was not screw up.

[fferyllt]

I will say, for what it's worth, that as scum you'll usually get more of a challenge from town. I tried fairly hard to make people care on day one and it just didn't really take. Relatively frustrating experience on my end. Cankles was obviously the most vocal "to hell with trying" voice, but it was a collective thing as much as anything else. Not really sure what I can do in a situation like that.

You were doing the right things: spinning up content of your own and asking people questions.

In a couple large theme games I played where town fell into a deathly apathy, it took a lot of cheerleading, and digging up my own enthusiasm as well as putting reads and analysis down.

This town wasn't suffering from the apathy of exhaustion, though. I wondered if players just didn't know how to react to pressure in a way that shows they're town.