Newbie 1816 (Game Over)

[JaeReed]

to me, it read as if he's really trying to find information in interactions, which is part of what everyone should be doing. i think it's a lot more likely to be offbase than disingenuous, especially considering how often he's changed his mind. do you think he was being equally disingenuous about everyone else he had suspicions for previously? how would you have read the reactions of those players if they had reacted as you are now?

tbh from my current understanding of your meta from what you've explaining, i think if you're town you'd better serve town if you tried to scumhunt outside of siv for now, even if siv ends up being scum. you could be right, but i think it's pretty likely you're still in an OMGUS mindset without expressly voting that way, which is equally unhelpful and likely to lead to people thinking you're scum, especially if siv flips town

It wasn't about his mind change but moreso the fact that he voted clockwork rather than me based off associative tells with me. And no, prior to that I was playing with "this might be town?" wrt SIV and his pushes, which is one reason I acknowledged my initial reaction and tried to reel it in along with hoping for a bit of help in that area, which Llama did provide some.

Can you explain what you mean by "how would you have read the reactions of those players if they had reacted as you are now?" please? Not sure I quite follow. I think the urge to omgus is entirely unhelpful and I think it's NAI overall whether someone does or does not state that urge. Some people find omgus scummy for whatever reason but I think everything should be looked at with context. Don't think the manner that SIV made that push was good so I think it's understandable that I would have an issue with it.

The last paragraph here is ?????? because I was clearly trying not to listen to my kneejerk reaction and actually reason out what I think is more likely. And I actually do believe that to be helpful, especially since I concluded SIV's thing on me didn't make as much sense from a mafia perspective.

[JaeReed]

in theory i like this hesitation. jaereed is displaying a good amount of self awareness. at this point i could see it being either town trying to improve their play or nervous scum thinking someone might know his meta and expect an OMGUS retaliation from town!jaereed. this is something i've personally done before as scum- been afraid people would notice a difference in my behavior so i have to call it out myself before anyone else can

This might hold some water if I'd ever played with anyone here before. I haven't.
Doubt anyone meta diving me would pick up on that particular trait over anything else, either, but I also doubt that Llama would have the time to meta dive me so I think I'd be pretty safe there as maf to just not bother to bring it up.

[JaeReed]

If I were mafia with clock I wouldn't be voting her rn tbh. I don't bus.

i don't really have a lot of faith in WIFOM statements like these

Sure.
Except it's something I've provably stated many times in the past as town. As scum I don't *think* I draw attention to that so much but I'd have to check?
My first scum game my scum partner claimed scum and I pushed for us to not lynch him and search for any other scum first.
My second scum game my scum partner got a guilty on him and we pushed for the lynch of the watcher instead and had him cc the watcher.
My third scum game ended in a perfect win with none of us getting lynched because we didn't bus.

Bussing in a large number of games is exactly what causes scum to lose. There are very very very niche times where bussing would be a good idea and D1 of a newbie is never one of those times, so...
Like, I do imagine I will bus one day when I think I can get a boatload of cred for it with people who are familiar with me.
This isn't that game.

[guyy]

oh, that was a response to this, which i now realize i misread

My god it is so hard to not just omgus SIV rn tbh.

Like, especially finding the whole thing about my interactions regarding clockwork to be disingenuous when I was clearly trying to do a reread and get my head into the game.

i thought you were saying you thought what siv was saying about you was disingenuous. i was asking if you'd feel it was disingenuous
if anyone other than siv said it

i was mostly trying to ask if you'd feel very omgus against any other player. but i suppose i got the answer i was looking for in your reactions to me anyway, haha

the other reason i was voting you was essentially the opposite of what i said about siv- as town i'd rather have someone that isn't going to omgus vote in lylo and that will reconsider and listen and think [so either you flip scum- good - or we mislynch a possibly detrimental vt- not terrible]

which is what you've done since i posted, so i'm satisfied for now

UNVOTE:

i'm gonna reread

[JaeReed]

the other reason i was voting you was essentially the opposite of what i said about siv- as town i'd rather have someone that isn't going to omgus vote in lylo and that will reconsider and listen and think [so either you flip scum- good - or we mislynch a possibly detrimental vt- not terrible]

I've been raged at from the dead thread before for wanting to go through the whole game in lylo when it was considered a lock win.
That said, omgus voting in lylo is exactly what you need to do. You have to assume the player voting you is scum because you've lost anyway if they're not.
If you're arguing you think I'm the type to omgus vote... That was already proven false by the fact that I didn't do so.

[JaeReed]

i'm gonna reread

What did you get from your reread?

[LlamaFluff]

As dumb as it may seem, the push on Bhoy for confirming and never posting honestly makes sense from a newbie-meta standpoint. I don't like pushing something of the sort because it always feels game-breaking, but still...

ASP also needs to really explain this statement, because I don't like it at all. This seems like just trying to leave that as a point he can push a player on later, but for the time being is going to give them a pass on it. This is a type of tell where it either is scummy to you if you read your role and then flake, or it is not a scumtell. Maybe later in the game with a scum flip you can try to connect dots reaction wise, but stand alone it is either a tell or not. ASP seems to say its a tell but one he doesn't want to use.

JR still is making me very uncomfortable as well, I need to try and do reading but just something about him feels unnatural to me.

Its about 72 hours to deadline. We need to start consolidating things and make sure everyone is caught up. If you are not voting right now, go read posts saying why people who are voting are doing so. Try and see if you like cases, or if you think cases being pushed are bad and react accordingly.

[SIV36]

After doing an ISO of in4Fun, I've determined that I see genuine game-solving going on in his head. I'm not as sure he's a mafia anymore. But ISO'ing Eclipse (even with so few posts) almost makes me lock-confirm Eclipse as mafia. What trips my wire is he finds various people scummy, but then back-pedals his scumtells (three times in one posts)

So far Llama seems town, but then again, they're the most experienced, so could probably fake town the best. SIV seems slightly scummy, due to the fact he switched views on Tuber but I don't think that's enough for me to vote him.

Tbh I think clockworkgirl sounds like maf, but that might just be because you're actually talking.

It doesn't make sense to me to see something scummy about a person, but then say but there's nothing scummy about it. If I did think that way, what is the point of making a comment about it? It's a weird way of saying I got a null read. To me, it's a mafia trying to feign scum-reads but then giving outs to stay low and under the radar about them.

Now I really just wish I knew Eclipse's partner.
VOTE: Eclipsed

[A Simple Plan]

As dumb as it may seem, the push on Bhoy for confirming and never posting honestly makes sense from a newbie-meta standpoint. I don't like pushing something of the sort because it always feels game-breaking, but still...

ASP also needs to really explain this statement, because I don't like it at all. This seems like just trying to leave that as a point he can push a player on later, but for the time being is going to give them a pass on it. This is a type of tell where it either is scummy to you if you read your role and then flake, or it is not a scumtell. Maybe later in the game with a scum flip you can try to connect dots reaction wise, but stand alone it is either a tell or not. ASP seems to say its a tell but one he doesn't want to use.

JR still is making me very uncomfortable as well, I need to try and do reading but just something about him feels unnatural to me.

Its about 72 hours to deadline. We need to start consolidating things and make sure everyone is caught up. If you are not voting right now, go read posts saying why people who are voting are doing so. Try and see if you like cases, or if you think cases being pushed are bad and react accordingly.

It's a statement that basically equates to "its not something I morally approve of game-wise, but if we've got nothing else, it's where my vote will go." Using login times to see when players are around is the equivalent of glancing at another player's card when they're not paying attention during the in-person variant. While it's not against the rules, it violates the spirit of the game, and I'm not gonna push on that alone unless there's nothing else to be had whatsoever.

[Nexus]

Whemestar replaces In4Fun

[Nexus]

Votecount 1.8:

clockworkgirl (2)

- JaeReed, Yooh

SIV36 (2)

- clockworkgirl, Whemestar

Eclipsed (1)

- SIV36

Whemestar (1)

- Llamafluff,

Not voting (3)

- Eclipsed, A Simple Plan, guyy

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. The deadline is at 3pm BST on Tuesday 22nd August 2017 ((expired on 2017-08-22 15:00:00)). Deadline is on hold until I find a replacement for Eclipsed.

Eclipsed has failed to pick up their prod. As a result, he is being replaced.

[WhemeStar]

Hi

[JaeReed]

Hi

Hi, any thoughts so far?

[SIV36]

I'm going to do a player by player readlist:

Eclipsed (MAFIA)
After Iso, there are a few red-flags (from so little content), and nothing pointing that this slot is town. Not only does eclipse back out of his scum-reads in a scum way/backpedals, he also asks a very obvious question which he then answers himself (does null mean neither mafia or town?). Then he places concern that my random vote is still stuck on his slot.

JaeReed (?mafia?)
JaeReed has experience playing this game, so this colours my judgement. In paraphrasing his Iso, his approach to this game seems unbelievable to me. Him trying to piece together the mafia team is not really there. from my notes:

Spoiler:

JaeReed (SE) ?mafia?
-Random votes clokwork
-Llama feels town
-Nothing from Siv
-Wondering if daRealdodo is scum because daRealDodo might be faking not understanding RVS
-tubers might be scum as he is reading too much into clockworkds
-Why didn't siv vote for tubers?
-Does Siv have a conviction about tubers or doesn't he?
-darealdodo's not providing content
-In4funs' caution to put someone at L-1 seems townie
-What does Yooh find townie about Llama's approach?
-Why does Yooh scumread clockwork?
-Why isn't llama pushing clockwork's reasoning?
-Is llama normally this passive?
-I want to omgus SIv
-Llama just sits back and complains while not using his votes (doesn't stick neck out)
-After some thought and back-and-forth, Siv is most likely town
-I want to town-read guy for having the balls to go after me
-If guyy is scum, I don't think it's with clock. guy is trying to pocket clockf

I guess what I mean about JaeReed is that (to me) there is no indication that there is 7 people who are town, and 2 are mafia. To him, he provides scum-reads based on how easy it is to push them,...argh... he makes all-purpose, generally agreeable arguements but little originality. There's a lot where he tries to explain his self-meta, which I feel is a little manipulative.

LlamaFluff (NULL)
This will be my only null read. He's asking questions and playing the game, but there is no emotion in his game at all. I find him very robotic/ stoic. And he doesn't really give anyone his impressions of the players, even though he promotes open candidness. He's way out there in cloud land.

In4Fun / Whemestar (?town?)
Nothing from Wheme yet, but In4Fun didn't start very well for me, but then his big fling towards me not responding well to Yooh's obvious buddying attempt makes me like him as town. To me, telling false information is the most easiest thing for anyone to do, but faking emotion is many magnitudes more difficult. In4Fun put conviction in his vote towards me that I feel is hard to fake, which is why I find this slot town. However, i'll admit that there's a small chance that In4Fun has fooled me and this slot is mafia.

Tubers / ASP (?town?)
My read on this slot has a lot to do with how tubers reacted to my earlier observation, and him disagreeing with llama about being an open-book. I believe mafia are putting more effort into saying town things than even the town are, and just blatantly saying not to be an open book and keeping things to oneself would be a risk to say from a mafia perspective. Tube from a town perspective makes it sound genuine. That he believes he could catch the mafia better if he keeps his tells to himself. However, this still could have fooled me and there's a slight chance that I'm wrong.

I'm trusting everyone else as just about confirmed town. The progression of their play solidly flows, and they seem to have natural tendencies to solve the game. I would go into detail all these near-confirmed town reads, but I have lots of family over and they swarm like vultures, so I have to go. (I'll be back tonight when everything is quiet. )

[clockworkgirl]

Yooh seems town to me. I don't think his play has been particularly effective but not in a scummy way, just a lacking experience way. I think he's been making a good attempt at scumhunting and if he was mafia I'd have seen some sign by now.

Jaereed strikes me as town. His defence makes sense to me and one of the main accusations against him is that he's scum with me which I know isn't true.

I think we just don't have enough information on the Eclipsed slot to say that's anything other than null.

I continue to believe SIV36 is the most likely to be scum but I don't seem to have much support for that. I continue to be suspicious of In4Fun/Whemestar as well, I'd be willing to vote that way if I can't get support against SIV36.

@Whemestar- I would be very interested in hearing your reads on the players so far.

I would assume that us not lynching anyone on day one is a bad thing right? Does anyone have a suggestion for what we should do if we're at this stage with no clear consensus?

[JaeReed]

I would assume that us not lynching anyone on day one is a bad thing right? Does anyone have a suggestion for what we should do if we're at this stage with no clear consensus?

No lynching on D1 is an extremely bad thing, yeah. There were statistics on it somewhere but I'm writing this on my way out the door for work so I can't really hunt them down right now.
But basically, you don't wanna give mafia a free kill of a townish person without us also lynching someone we think is scummy.
I'm fine with lynching Wheme if he doesn't contribute.
Would prefer Eclipsed over either yourself or SIV but I'm not super in love with a lurker lynch because my confidence in my townreads this game isn't as high as I'd need it to be to do so.
Llama might be my preferred at this stage but I'm aware I'm never going to get the support for an IC lynch D1; just feel like he's doing the absolute minimum but then so am I so /shrug.

Hopefully we get a deadline extension to get content from the Eclipsed replace in. The slot has kind of given nothing all game.

[JaeReed]

To him, he provides scum-reads based on how easy it is to push them,...argh... he makes all-purpose, generally agreeable arguements but little originality.

I'd say my arguments are original. Don't think I'm parroting others so I'm really not sure where you're getting that from.

I don't think I get scumreads based on how easy it is to push them either because it certainly would have been easy to push you as scum if I wanted to due to you voting clockwork over me off of associative tells. It wouldn't even have needed to look like omgus in me doing so.

[JaeReed]

Also really hate how I'm the only one you bring up experience on when Llama is around with way more experience than me and there's another SE, actually. It's good to be aware of confirmation bias and that's one of the signs imo.

[guyy]

I've been raged at from the dead thread before for wanting to go through the whole game in lylo when it was considered a lock win.
That said, omgus voting in lylo is exactly what you need to do. You have to assume the player voting you is scum because you've lost anyway if they're not.
If you're arguing you think I'm the type to omgus vote... That was already proven false by the fact that I didn't do so.

well then i want you around more than i thought

also, i was reacting to the omgus mentality you seemed to have trouble suppressing just in response to someone suggesting you're scummy [see siv's post 99]. i wanted to see if it was worse if someone actually voted for you

i'm satisfied

right my vote would go to eclipsed but they are now being replaced

at this point i think we should lynch eclipsed or whemestar. maybe asp

[guyy]

It's a statement that basically equates to "its not something I morally approve of game-wise, but if we've got nothing else, it's where my vote will go." Using login times to see when players are around is the equivalent of glancing at another player's card when they're not paying attention during the in-person variant. While it's not against the rules, it violates the spirit of the game, and I'm not gonna push on that alone unless there's nothing else to be had whatsoever.

do you think we have nothing else to go on?

[WhemeStar]

Is this gonna be a wall game

[guyy]

wheme who do you think is scum

[WhemeStar]

UNVOTE:

[WhemeStar]

wheme who do you think is scum

I've read the first post of the game and I think Jareed is scum

[SIV36]

Ugh, mom! Why do you keep yelling at me about the cookies when my sister steals them too!

Sorry, I'm feeling like a dick again.

Also really hate how I'm the only one you bring up experience on when Llama is around with way more experience than me and there's another SE, actually. It's good to be aware of confirmation bias and that's one of the signs imo.