Mini Normal 1983: Winter Wonderland [Endgame!]

[Flubbernugget]

You first

[Flubbernugget]

I love that I can even enumerate points in slideshow-esqe bullets and still get told I'm treating a single one of them like a smoking gun

[northsidegal]

VC 1.07

votes

Internecine

(1): DoYouKnowDeWay

Sephiroth

(1): mozamis

Flubbernugget

(3): sheepsaysmeep, Sergtacos, Not_Mafia

BuJaber

(5): Internecine, Katyusha, Hopkirk, humaneatingmonkey, Sephiroth

humaneatingmonkey

(2): Flubbernugget, BuJaber

Not Voting

(1): Schism

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch

The day 1 deadline is in

: (expired on 2018-01-19 12:49:59)

Mod Notes

:

[Katyusha]

You first

The Bu wagon stalled kind of awkwardly and that intrigues me.
unvote, vote: Bu

I love that I can even enumerate points in slideshow-esqe bullets and still get told I'm treating a single one of them like a smoking gun

ok

pedit: nvm nsg's got it but still

[Sephiroth]

[humaneatingmonkey]

the read list isn't in order. just in groups. i do this in my games. otherwise, Buj would have been in the bottom.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Seph, why did you vote me?

Also, do you think Hopkirk v Monkey is TvT?

Why am I being called HEM or HUM? May I be called Monkey instead?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Let's focus on Buj because I think this is a wagon that would either turn me into a town!Buj believer or increase my confidence that this is scum.

[humaneatingmonkey]

While I think Flubb is also a good lynch, I think BuJ is something that I can read now.

[Sephiroth]

Seph, why did you vote me?

I checked the vote count and there were two votes. Two is a small number. I want it to be a large number.

Also, do you think Hopkirk v Monkey is TvT?

Why am I being called HEM or HUM? May I be called Monkey instead?

Probs town vs town. I'm not married to my reads but for now thats the vibe I'm getting. Sorry I didn't know you preferred Monkey, totally happy to call you that instead =)

[Sephiroth]

Just to be clear I no longer think it should be a large number but that was my thinking at the time.

[Sephiroth]

I'm glad we're all in agreement on a Bu wagon though, I think thats the best route for the moment.

[Hopkirk]

Since there’s another 8 pages I’ll start going through stuff now I guess.

Disliked 437 from Blu. Tone shifted towards me/Hem. That's why I vote switched.
438 from Kat- Actually that’s the opposite of a white knight. A white knight requires me to defend him or chainsaw attack the attacks on him. I didn’t try and defend him. I stated a townread while catching up. You can see the same in many of my other games.

Monkey 440- The bad bit isn’t really about UC anyway. It’s about how you interacted with me over it. You seemed more interested in painting me badly (shading is that?) than determining what I was talking about. You seemed to seize the opportunity presented by me explaining this rather badly rather than try and resolve it in a towny manner. Regarding Flubber you didn’t present a case on him being scum like I asked. You responded by trying to attack my read instead. Point on misrep by exclusion is because you responded to it badly by ascribing a wrong meaning to a word to try and make me look bad, then didn’t follow up when I said you’d ascribed the wrong meaning.

The UC wagon wasn’t badly/scummily composed. Nobody has convinced me of this yet. Here’s the game I referenced earlier with Flubber: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 7#p9697107
Note that me, Flubber, and not_mafia were on the wagon that began in RVS and it led to the lynch. Everyone was town on it. Compare it to this game’s RVS wagon and you’ll see why I liked it. I explained this earlier without quoting the specific game. It’s only a few pages so it should be easy to see. (obviously it’s different since after that game I wouldn’t have wanted to lynch UC since Fen flipped town, but it seemed like a good way to compare Flubber/NM to that game).

[humaneatingmonkey]

But Seph, did you think I was scum or was it pressure vote or is there another reason?

[Sephiroth]

But Seph, did you think I was scum or was it pressure vote or is there another reason?

I thought the possibility of you being scum was worth exploring given how I initially scum read you.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Okay.

What about Hop and I's interaction made you think it was TvT instead of someone being scum there?

[Hopkirk]

What's good, BuJ?

I don't know both of you seem to be misrepresenting the other. His quote of you calling UC and flubb suspicious and then denying you ever disliked UC seems pretty damning to me.

His lies are more subtle. Either way one of you needs to die because that would expose the other as either scum or town. I want this fight to end. I'll jump on hop if you want I really don't care which of you goes.

Also this doesn't match what he said. Apparently i'm still misrepping HeM, but that's good?
HeM is town if Buj flips scum, but the reverse isn't true (ie HeM isn't scummier if Buj flips town and Buj isn't town if HeM flips scum), so the Buj is better today.

I was under the assumption that UCV rvs'd but then said we should try to get out of rvs as soon as possible which seems like a normal progression to me

though i guess that vote could have been serious - if it is UCV i'd actually like to hear what you think the scum motivation for that vote is

Why do we need solid scum motivation at this point? You sound like you're pushing against it trying to look townie.
The issue is inconsistency.
Plus we get out of RVS like he wanted.

What first made me consider scum!Hop this game was this post - specifically the second sentence.

Why is Hop shading me here? It was a weird line considering I was voting on the UCV wagon which meant that I was considering him as possible scum - obviously I'm not going to be pushing back against my own push, I would unvote if that were the case.

Since Hop seems like he's responding to my first sentence (UCV's progression seems normal) but is using context from the second sentence, the response feels like a non-sequitur and is ignoring the point being made. Obviously at this point I thought he could just be town misunderstanding me, but the consistency in how he continued to not see what I was talking about seems to me that there was some intention of pushing this point to an agenda, and backtracking yourself to be accountable to your mistakes would have hurt the push's potency. Obviously once it was clear that I wasn't getting lynched or scumread this game he backed off.

If he were just trying to sort me, I think he'd approach it in a more inquisitive manner. "You sound like you're pushing against it trying to look townie" is very different from "Why are you pushing against your own vote?". The latter, again, doesn't really make sense but it's at least clear in that case he's misunderstanding my intentions and can be cleared up easily.

---

I definitely agree with HEM that the Flubber read seemed out of place and white-knighty. I would think a town!Hopkirk would approach the read considering why Flubber was being pushed in the first place:

scumreads n_m for inaccurate meta and his UCV read is weird in light of the game’s context

Maybe Hop doesn't have the meta or context to disagree with the n_m read, which is fine, but if he felt he was town then Hop would have an explanation as to why Flubber wasn't considering sheep's meta or had a reason to disagree with sheep. "The wagon is bad" is also a perfectly fine reason to disagree with the Flubber scumreads, but as I pointed out the wagon composition at that time consisted of mostly townreads of Hop's so it's hard to give credibility to that reasoning.

The meta Hop gave is also kind of lazy. There's more to Flubber's entrance than voting onto a large wagon, and plenty of people do the same when they enter games. It's a very NAI thing to attribute to meta as well. I don't know how strong Hop's meta skills are but it still doesn't seem like a read I would use to defend against a Flubber wagon when there's more to the push to dismantle.

With a confident enough read to just write "Flubber is town.", town!Hop would probably try to explain his perspective better rather than just state it as he caught up.

---

I thought you'd be more interested in HEM town.

Something about this line also felt kind of manufactured to me. I don't really think it'd be surprising if he read HEM one way or the other and from Hop's posting it's clear he didn't intend to push on him as well, so townreading HEM there seems reasonable. Yet, why would Hop thinks this deserves special attention? I would think it's more likely that scum!Hop put HEM in his townreads so that he wouldn't look overly defensive and wanted to make that clear, and that I would assume that if town!Hop felt the interaction was TvT&T he wouldn't be surprised about me finding the read normal because HEM would seem clearly town to both of us.

I also question the read's genuineness considering Hop was happy to discard it once pressure came towards HEM's way. I think that, besides basically everything Bu has pushed, this is definitely one of the more opportunistic changes in reads.

I think this and the Flubber townread are both weak points in his reads that show that they're disingenuous. Hop's townread of Flubber should have further addressed the points being given better, and his HEM read seems to reflect more on the gamestate than what someone in Hopkirk's shoes would actually feel.

---

I think without going in depth about the argument that was had earlier, these are the most important points that lead me to feeling confident about scum!Hop.

Essentially, we can see that he's reading the thread from a different perspective that isn't inquisitive, provided a poor defense for Flubber when he was first being wagonned, and has reads that seem unnatural.

Kat, my current understanding of your hopkirk scumread is a whiteknight of me and his egregious misunderstandings. I think both points are kinda blah.

If explaining why they're scum motivated better doesn't help clear that up or make the points better, then could you give your reasoning for listing him as your 3rd scumread?

After a short break I'm going to break down why HEM is town.

Your entire case here is literally that you don't know my meta.
I'm shading you because that's RVS. Pressure and see what happens.
You say how you think I'd approach Flubber. You didn't look for/ask for the game that I said I liked him because of. You again ignored how I'd actually approach it in favour of a model of what you think I'd do. I have literally no idea where the model is coming from. It's not that he was on the wagon, it's how he was initially as well as that he was.
I said NM was town.
Regarding HeM, I clearly reread. I've also flipped my thoughts again there and have him in neutral right now since it could lean either way.
There wasn't pressure on HeM. Flubber's case on him wasn't good.

[Sephiroth]

What about Hop and I's interaction made you think it was TvT instead of someone being scum there?

You both feel genuine to me. Its not a matter of whos right and whos wrong so much as whos mindset makes sense. I can see town hop and town monkey going at eachother like this. I think of the two scumHEM makes more sense than scumHop but thats mostly gut if I'm being honest.

[BuJaber]

can you try to sell me on there being scum in flub/seph

Didn't we have this conversation? Found both scummy for their entrance and vote on UCV. Didn't think they would copy each other if they were both scum, so I concluded that only 1 is scum.

Since the game has ended, I can now talk about it. HEM was force replaced in my latest game (and the only game I've played with him). The reasons are irrelevant to this game. The point that is relevant is that he fought with one player who called him scum and tried to build a case (though admittedly pretty weak) on him. Even more interestingly he then got into an even bigger argument with another player who was pushing against him hard. Oh, HEM slot was scum in that game. That is the only thing I know about HEM going into this game. I don't like looking at games I'm not in. I feel that if meta is used it has to be experienced first hand. Not saying it's wrong to look at people's game, but I just don't like doing it myself unless it's also a game I played with them.

When HEM was having his discussion with hop it was like deja vu. I flip flopped around with who I thought was arguing better and landed on hop, hence the vote.

HOWEVER, HEM began arguing with flubb and his case on flubb seems even stronger to me than hop. He sounds like the same person from the other game, but he's not focusing on just one person to the point that it is distracting from the game. He is taking time to include other people and read them or talk to them too. There is a clear distinction in the consequences of his arguments here vs the game in which he was scum. The arguments here sound much more like town trying to scumhunt. So I'm sorry HEM you're back to being top TR. UNVOTE:

Hop had a problem with HEM and got into an argument. Hop went away, flubb picked it up. Doesn't seem like at any point during the game there were 2 people directly going after HEM at the same time. I can only deduce from that that scum is purposefully doing that. As long as one person is trying to undermine HEM's reads that's all they need. So if a townie does it they step back, and if not, one of them steps up to argue with him. It is also a good strategy for scum to keep posts flowing between only a few players. This pretty much guarantees HEM is town.

I don't know if it's just me or my ego or what, but it also irked me that flubb hasn't mentioned me. Why is he trying to distance himself? I think he wants to drag me down with him after he flips, or let town mislynch me on their own. Add that to HEM's case, and my gut feeling at the start of the game, and we have a solid lynch. VOTE: Flubb


Why is serg being treated like some prodigal son? I'm all for humor in mafia, especially when games get tense but it makes it really hard to read people when they don't post much except for a few jokes every several pages. Which is why I'm against such behavior.

@Kat I don't think I've developed a meta yet on this site, but regardless of how you end up reading me in this game I'd be interested to know if you do find any patterns after the game.

pedit - will try to call you monkey from now on.

@monkey - you mentioned you though NM was good lynch bait, but do you have any reads on him now?
@Hop - I'll do what I can to change your mind

[Katyusha]

@Hop

UC Voyager (5): Not_Mafia, Hopkirk, Katyusha, Sephiroth, Flubbernugget

At its peak, this was the UCV wagon. Yes, I edited myself in but that's because I unvoted myself shortly before the VC

at that time I had an uneasy feeling of you, didn't like seph, and didn't like Flubber's vote; I scumread you more now and still think Flubber is scummy, though seph is townier to me

so from my pov now it's really just a meh wagon considering i think i'm still at the point where there's too many empty slots to think that I could be right about Flubber or you being scum - at the time though unvoting when I only had one townread made sense

I think people will just bandwagon in RVS because it's sort of part of how you transition out of RVS. I don't think it's town indicative, even if that wagon in your last game was all town.

---

I mean I guess but the point is you were against the Flubber wagon and didn't really substantiate your read that well. White knight is just a buzzword that makes the idea easier to communicate.

pedit: If there's just a difference in how you approach town games I think it'll be more clear to me as the game progresses. I'll clarify my points in a bit (i'm still tired after the coffee i drank should kick in so i might nap or something. hate being sick) but I think you're misunderstanding what the point of comparing town!Hop and scum!Hop is. If it's really worthwhile I'll try to take a look at your scumgames and see what is AI for you if you just scumhunt in a bizzare way but the method I'm using has at the very least worked in the past because town inquisitiveness and scum latching a narrative onto something are pretty simple things to recognize.

pedit: sorry bu i'll read your post later but im getting really tired

also can we call monkey monkey? thanks

[Sephiroth]

also can we call monkey monkey? thanks

fuck my bad

[humaneatingmonkey]

@buj

if im being honest, regardless of alignment, i would have fought with robb there 100% of the time. it's not a matter of winning the game but how much he's willing to shit on games that are doing fine just for some really petty shit.

[humaneatingmonkey]

it feels like getting on my good side is the latest fashion trend as I'm getting some good vibes and love from this page.

i'm off to bed now but i hope when i come back, moz and serg is readable.

also, n_m looks town from early game but there's not much to go on from there. maybe later.

[BuJaber]

Which one of them is robb?

[Hopkirk]

Sheep is town.
547 @Kat: If you can’t follow my thought processes whatsoever, and NM said it seems typical of how I play, then why are you working with how you’d approach it from my position?
HeM’s language style is somewhat aggressive, but this seems consistent with his tone in other threads, including non-mafia ones, so isn’t alignment indicative.
Kat’s towncase on HeM is also dependent on how he expects scum HeM to play/how he’d play. Hence, not a good case unless he has a lot of experience with HeM. Do you @Kat?