Open 708: Pick Your Poison - Game Over

[Transcend]

Ep looks town i guess

[Bellaphant]

Sorry, I did pm the mod a day or so ago to replace out but i don't think it got spotted. Sorry

[Transcend]

Awww but i just got here

Hope all is better

[mozamis]

Sorry, I did pm the mod a day or so ago to replace out but i don't think it got spotted. Sorry

UNVOTE:

my hearts not in the Coa wagon, i think i am voting based on her wallposts which i dislike - either cos they are boring as fuck, or i have a rubbish attention span lol
much rather a wagon on bella. the replace out LITERALLY doesnt matter. Guilty until proved innocent. (sorry, it really bugs when i suspect scum replacing out, because i know it sends Town into paroxyms of "ooo, lets be fair and give the replacement a chance" no. the role pm remains the same. bella was scum, the replacement is scum too. No mercy, no quarter given. WE GIVE THE FUCKER ROPE.)
ah, the caffeine has kicked in lol
VOTE: Bellaphant

[Thor665]

@Transcend - now that you're caught up want to talk to me about CoA?
I'll agree some of her posts look weak (though not really scummy), but the way she fielded the accusation of her 'flail' screams town reaction to me - why didn't you get that?

[Flubbernugget]

And no Thor, I didn't explicitly ask you for your case on me, but I casted suspicion on you never posting one almost immediately after your vote.

I agree that your goal was to make me look scummy for something that wasn't scummy.

I don't recall you asking me to back up my meta read at all. If I didn't answer your question, why didn't you quote it several times like you did with maxous?

You're still not answering the question I notice.
I didn't re-ask because I never once felt that you had done it accidentally.

It's very fair to consider the wagon on me bad when the player known for being able to make strong cases isn't making an actual case on me.

Who is this player?
Because if it's me - what's the evidence in support of me making strong cases?
And if it's not me - whose case are you dogging on?

1) bad frame. I'm one of the few people actually putting effort into sorting you past "Thor is null"

2) Asking "I am?" sounds rhetorical. It's fair to assume that means our recollections differ, and it's fair to not dig much into the meta after that (I've never been a meta heavy player as is). Again, be explicit. You didn't have a problem doing this with me before, and now you do. You're giving yourself too much slack to backtrack on your arguments.

3) knock off the humility bullshit

[Thor665]

1. Just because other people aren't able to sort me does not make your "attempt" by default good. My point is very valid here.

2. I still note that you aren't taking up the challenge of backing up the meta, and are even now giving *yourself* slack by admitting yu don't normally meta.

3. I'm serious - when have I ever claimed to make great cases OR who has ever claimed that about me?
I would describe my meta as minimalist cases.
Where are you getting this made up meta claim? Is it the same place where my fast reads of you come from?

[Thor665]

Like, your entire bug-a-boo against me appears to be formulated by saying I'm playing differently then a made up person who is not me.
And then you're annoyed that I'm not impressed by how you're scumreading me and find it scummy?

[Klick]

Klick, what's your opinion on 78 and 123 which seem townish to me?

I'm not really seeing anything alignment-indicative about the two posts? You're going to have to explain what you see to me.


Moneybags, I'm disappointed in your push against me.

The Bella Exchange:

Which way is the gut read on texcat, and what posts does it come from? Because I have the same thing.

Yeah, I had a weird gut townread on texcat as well reading earlier. Something about the post he made on page 3 seemed like... minimal content, but in a genuine way? idk.

I think we all can agree this is strange. I know he explained this in one of his recent posts as him being insecure. However what's strange to me is that he would ask this after voting her in 95. Keep in mind this was when PP and Max were the top wagons. Shortly after in 98 Flub made his "bella votes are town votes" remark. In retrospect, I feel like he actually might have been on to something here.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. You're not particularly calling anything scummy. You find it strange that I'd ask Bella questions after voting her... My explanation for my interactions with Bella is given later in my first reads post:

Bella - I didn't like her second post, but my vote on her has been more to encourage her to get in here and get involved than anything.

I wanted her to get engaged. My vote and questions directed at her were a means to that end.

The Moneybags Exchange:

On my phone. Just posting to say I really, really like your post 150 Moneybags. Particularly the Beefster bit - that was a nice catch, and I think I'm going to townread him now as well. I agree with not quite seeing Maxous-scum at this point in time, and his wagon is very peculiar/interesting to me. Going to look into the votes on him in detail when I get back on my laptop.

In context of a Beef-scum scenario, this is

really

interesting. I also townread Klick in my post 150. This in light of the bella exchange feels like straight up buddying with me. Also it gave him a reason to say Beef is for sure town, which he seems really enthusiastic about.

So you see possible scum motivation in me liking your post 150 - you think scum-me could be buddying with you and trying to find a reason to call scumbuddy-Beef town. This is a large assumption and more speculation than scumhunting. Associative tells mean practically nothing until there's actually some sort of scum flipped, or until it's late enough in the game that there's a reasonable chance of two players being partners. With three scum in a 13-player game, you're banking on a 1/22 chance of your assumption being right that two players are scum. It's a small enough chance that without any actual info, associative tells are insignificant.
The buddying accusation based on me liking with your post 150 has some amount of merit, considering you saw the same thing in my interactions with Bella. My counter to that is that my reads in regards to liking your post have been consistent since then. I've maintained a strong Beef townread - he's my strongest townread at the moment - and it's primarily as a result of the reasoning you posted, despite the fact that you don't have much confidence in the argument anymore yourself. The read has become mine and has nothing to do with you anymore.
I think you are picking up on a playstyle quirk of mine, telling someone I like what they've posted when I notice something that influences my reads, and interpreting it as a scumtell. It's a personality trait, not alignment-indicative.

Official Reads (Finally, on page 15):

-snip-

Town Reads: Not surprising, except that he has nothing to say on anything against Beef, and is strongly still holding him up as town.
Leaning Town: Making Flubber and Bella lean town is interesting to me. It doesn't commit to pinning Flub as town but says "I can't really pinpoint what it is that gives me my townread on Flubbernugget." I left Bella in for context of the earlier exchange.
Scum Reads:

Way to play it safe.

Somehow people are still holding on to Max-Scum. I personally don't see it but ok. Still holding on to PP Scum? Ok yeah I really can't see that atm. Riding the PP train feels a bit blatant considering we don't currently have a lot to go off of from Transcend.

Tex?!

Are you sure? The one, safe bet for a scumread. "But they've been lurking!" C'mon man. This feels so strongly like it's the one wagon you could get away with shifting to. It feels dirty and I don't like it at all.

VOTE: Klick

This is the part I'm disappointed in. Your main, damning evidence that seems to be the primary cause for your vote against me is... my reads are safe and you theorize that it's something I could easily get away with as scum. I'll provide an alternate explanation: I'm town and these are my actual reads.
I'm "playing it safe" with my scumreads, but I give a fair amount of explanation for these reads. I'm not entirely confident in a Max scumread, and that should have been obvious in my explanation.
There's a reason I didn't vote Transcend; honestly that's where I want my vote, and if Transcend doesn't impress me in his next few posts a case and vote from me is probably going his way. But I'm giving Transcend an opportunity to come in and change my mind. I'm putting practically zero pressure on the slot, so I'm not seeing how it can be called opportunistic.
Your problem with my tex read is that he's a "safe bet" for a scumread. Does that make it any less likely that I suspect and vote him as town? I have legitimate problems with his vote on Flubbernugget; why don't you actually look at my reasoning and give some insight on it? I don't bring up "lurking" as a reason for voting tex

once

. That has nothing to do with my suspicion or vote. I think tex is scum, I've given reasons for thinking so, I'm treating him just like I would treat any other suspect, lurker or not.
On top of that, you're calling my reads safe, but if that's the case, why am I defending townreads on COA, Flubber, Beefster, and Bella, all of which have a decent amount of pressure on them right now? Particularly COA, who I'd mentioned nothing about reads-wise up to this point. I could have easily joined that wagon as scum - and it's got a lot more steam currently than tex's wagon. I didn't, because my actual read on COA is that she's town. My read on tex is scum, hence the vote.

Your reasons for thinking I'm scum are primarily theory that,

if I'm scum,

I'm taking the easy options. You have no reason to think your theories are true, just that they are possible.

[HeWhoSwims]

Transcend would you mind elaborating on 367...? I'm not really seeing it or why the reaction is AI necessarily. And I get your Bella read wasn't complete but still I'm curious what caused it. Perhaps tell if you're caught up.

pedit quick reply to Klick: I see Max townhunting and I'm liking the reads he's giving in these posts. It wasn't anything real big, just pinged me as town like.

[Klick]

@Thor:

Could you please explain why you find Flubber scummy to me? Show some of your cards; I want to see what you're seeing.

Short answer - gut.
Long answer - I'll break it down to a single point to try to explain the gut. But basically Flubber went in pretty deep on discrediting/attacking me. In and amongst that attack he leveled a complaint that our meta together shows I read him fast and he finds it questionable on some level that I haven't read him fast enough here. And that's a reasonably valid stance to have, I suppose.

Except I don't recall that as a meta with him -

so I asked him to back it up.

I got crickets. Nada. Zilch. Zero.

Now, on a theoretical level - let's say he's town, therefore what he's saying is true.
Why wouldn't he throw that info in my face to force me to respond to help him get a read on me/prove to others I was scum?
I can literally think of no reason.

Now let's say he's town and he recalled wrong - is there any reason outside of personal shame not to kind of go 'oops, recalled wrong!' and adjust how he's interacting with me because now he has a better read of me because he's corrected wrong info?
Nothing I can think of - and his attitude towards me assuredly hasn't shifted, has it?

Now let's say he's scuma nd was lying/misrepping the reality of our history.
Avoiding *that* discussion makes a whole lot of sense.
Doubling down with a "ooooh, I said Thor should read me fast and now he's voting me" curls my toes also as it ignores that theoretically he claims to think I *do* read him fast and hard, and also ignores that I tried to interact with him functionally multiple times and he's avoided it while claiming I'm not reading him fast enough.

He's been avoiding a lot while casting shade and mud constantly (reference my ongoing of just trying to get him to explain why he thinks the wagon on him is bad considering all the shade he's tossing out about it)

That;s why I'm voting him.

The bolded bit is the part I'm not seeing. You had said "I am?" in response to him mentioning your apparent meta of reading him quickly. I didn't really immediately see that as you asking him to prove it. Flubber claims to have also not seen it this way. That opens up possible town motivation of not responding then just due to not seeing it as a question.

I do want to see Flubber back up the claim though.

@Flubber:

could I see an example or two of why you think Thor should be able to read you quickly?

[Klick]

That's fair, HWS. Gut read based on attempting to find townreads. I had similar things early on with Maxous, but I don't think it's too difficult to fake, and he hasn't given me much more to go off of.

[mozamis]

1) bad frame. I'm one of the few people actually putting effort into sorting you past "Thor is null"

no, thor is strong town. you are prob town too.

[mozamis]

@ Klick - join me on Bella.

[Klick]

No. I don't see Bella-scum definitively and I don't think we get very much info by pushing the Bella slot.

[Transcend]

Thor - I just don't like her tone and her posts don't feel game solve-y. They mostly feel like deflections of darts thrown against her and not really "hey: this is mafia because..."

Also i was just in a mini with her and srd her for the same thing. However there was a massive wave of resistance and i couldn't get her lynch into motion. Everyone tred her. Everyone was wrong but me.

So I'm willing to hear out a town case on her, but "x's reaction to y" doesn't really sell me.

[Transcend]

Moz Do you really want to direct all your focus on a slot that's getting replaced?

I don't think that's a great idea. Come join me on CoA.

[TesXX]

Bellaphant is being replaced.

[Transcend]

HWS the tone in all those posts bother me quite a bit. Also, Not an extreme fan of her progression

Bella for me is a toss up. I've never been super good at reading her but i think she's town right now and I'm sure my read on the slot will be based on her replacement.

I don't like the idea of bulldozing a slot that cannot properly defend itself.

[RadiantCowbells]

When there's something strange in your neighbourhood
who you gonna call

when there's something weird and it don't look good
who you gonna call

[RadiantCowbells]

I ain't fraid of no scums

[Transcend]

OH BOY!

[Transcend]

Oh man oh... man...

[RadiantCowbells]

I'M SO HUNGRY I COULD EAT A WHOLE ZEBRA

[Transcend]

Man ol' Friday

Even though it's Wednesday.