Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[Postie]

If you're asking me to explain why I townread Gamma, I already did. If you're asking why I think the opinion is unpopular, it's because I haven't seen anyone else townread Gamma and there are votes on him. Otherwise, I have no idea what you're asking.

[Thestatusquo]

wouldn't scum also experience genuine frustration at being scumread?

[Postie]

Also what's the point in not giving postie scum if they're bad at scum but can be coached through the game?

Coaching doesn't make you magically good at playing scum. Especially since my problem with playing scum comes down to being overly self-concious about how I come across, and not strategic errors I can be coached out of making (although I make those too).

See: this game where I rolled scum with RC and was coached but still failed miserably.

wouldn't scum also experience genuine frustration at being scumread?

Yes, which is why I said I believe his frustration was coming from the fact he didn't feel understood. I believe he was genuinely frustrated with the way you couldn't understand each other's thoughts (which he then rationalised as you being scum misunderstanding on purpose to make a push on him), and not the fact you were scumreading him.

[Thestatusquo]

that makes sense to me. I don't agree that this is where he was coming from, but I get what you're saying.

[MathBlade]

Votecount 1.8

Gamma Emerald(3)

~ Thestatusquo, EddieFenix, ActionDan

Postie(2)

~ Tchill13, Dunnstral

Marquis(2)

~ Llamarble, wgeurts

Llamarble(2)

~ northsidegal, Cogito Ergo Sum

Cogito Ergo Sum(2)

~ Lycanfire, Sauce

Thestatusquo(1)

~ Gamma Emerald

Tchill13(1)

~ LicketyQuickety

northsidegal(1)

~ Marquis

LicketyQuickety(1)

~ Postie


Not Voting (0):

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-02-04 21:00:00)

[LicketyQuickety]

Didn't Marquise say they were going to be around today? What happened there? And their wagon is now collapsed. I expect some good posts from Marqu.

[Postie]

I literally unvoted the second I realized my mistake. And the reason I thought there was a wagon there was I remembered votes on someone Llalmarble suspected, and knew some people were suspecting Marquis, so I thought the votes were on her. I get that there is some scumminess to what I did, but I didn't just votepark, I actually thought I had a point. And I've asked other questions and made other reads, so what I'm seeing here is you boiling down my content to one misguided push.

You can see the focus here is on explaining how he believes his actions differ to how you presented them - he's saying he thinks you were misrepping him.

Alright guys, got our first.

Wanna actually address my issues with you rather than say "got our first"? Or do you just want to throw shade?

So this is based on how you play then? That's alright but not everyone plays the same, so that's not a perfect method of reading people.

Then he continues to engage you, as a follow-up to his vote. From these comments I get the vibe he's not exactly 100% on his vote and is looking to get more information out of you to develop his read.

Looks pretty natural to me.

[Postie]

I

literally

unvoted

the second

I realized my mistake. And the reason I thought there was a wagon there was I remembered votes on someone Llalmarble suspected, and knew some people were suspecting Marquis, so I thought the votes were on her.

I get that there is some scumminess to what I did, but I didn't just

votepark, I actually thought I had a point. And I've asked other questions and made other reads, so what I'm seeing here is you boiling down my content to one misguided push.

I think you can also very much see the frustration bleeding through here as he's trying to explain.

[northsidegal]

also, i'm pretty much of the opposite opinion to dan when it comes to the tsq/gamma interaction – i think gamma's suspicion on dunn is very easily explained by a confusion of the order of events when it comes to dunn's vote vs the rest of the marquis wagon whereas i think tsq's push there feels opportunistic. mathdino agrees with me here, and he thinks the same "predatory" or "gotcha fishing"-style was visible in tsq's posts to me.

I agree that Gamma probably thought Dunn's vote on Marquis came in the middle of the wagon or at least not the first vote (although I wouldn't say that suspicion on Dunn for this is completely warranted per se), but I disagree with you and Dino that TSQ was predatory at any point.

Do you (or MathDino if he's following along) have thoughts about my 282 which is largely outside TSQ/Gamma interactions?

you'll have to let me know if i'm misunderstanding your point here, but i just don't think the inconsistencies you've pointed out are strongly scum-indicative. gamma's posts have been pinging me so far as more "disorganized" than "scum". it's not a hard townread, i just don't get any scum feelings from his posting as of yet. mathdino townreads gamma for 285 – he says that that kind of twisty, kind of weird logic more often comes from town than from scum.

also, i'm pretty much of the opposite opinion to dan when it comes to the tsq/gamma interaction – i think gamma's suspicion on dunn is very easily explained by a confusion of the order of events when it comes to dunn's vote vs the rest of the marquis wagon whereas i think tsq's push there feels opportunistic. mathdino agrees with me here, and he thinks the same "predatory" or "gotcha fishing"-style was visible in tsq's posts to me.

I had included him in my list of people I was planning on pushing on before that and that is not the only reason for me voting him. dig deeper here. my issue is not that the vote can't be explained, but rather that the vote needs to be explained, because he was still pushing it as the only thing in the game that he was actively pushing on. the fact that hes still talking about a naked rvs vote when there is 10+ pages of content to dig into as his most interested in the game and most active sorting attempt is what I am scum reading, not the fact that he was wrong about it. (although that certainly doesn't help the point.) I think this is abundantly clear from my posts.

not really going to go into a defense of gamma here, just going to say that i understand a bit more where your push is coming from now. if you're wondering why i asked you if you're still scumreading me, it's because the way you're talking to me in this post is very different than how you were talking to me earlier in the game and also to how i've noticed you talk to people you're pushing on / scumreading – if you had said that you were still scumreading you i would have taken this post as scum without genuine reads trying to convince someone on a push.


also saving this votecount to come back to look at later – it's an interesting one:

Spoiler:

Votecount 1.8

Gamma Emerald(3)

~ Thestatusquo, EddieFenix, ActionDan

Postie(2)

~ Tchill13, Dunnstral

Marquis(2)

~ Llamarble, wgeurts

Llamarble(2)

~ northsidegal, Cogito Ergo Sum

Cogito Ergo Sum(2)

~ Lycanfire, Sauce

Thestatusquo(1)

~ Gamma Emerald

Tchill13(1)

~ LicketyQuickety

northsidegal(1)

~ Marquis

LicketyQuickety(1)

~ Postie


Not Voting (0):

VOTE: cogito ergo sum

[Thestatusquo]

i don't think that any of that outweighs the way he's played the rest of the game, though, and I have seen similar emotion from scum who feel they have been caught for the wrong reasons. aka I see what you're saying but I don't agree with the conclusions you're drawing from it. I think frustration at those things could very easily come from scum.

@nsg, yes. sometimes I'm actually talking to the person I'm talking to, sometimes I'm talking to the town via talking to that person.

[Postie]

I have seen similar emotion from scum who feel they have been caught for the wrong reasons

So have I - what differentiates it from that for me is the fact he then circles back and asks you questions to develop the read.
If he were scum I'd expect him to just frustratedly vote you and then either move on or start shouting about how you're scum without showing any signs of doubt or second thoughts about his conclusion.

[Thestatusquo]

anyone who is voting postie is wrong btw.

[EddieFenix]

I'm taking this a lot slower now Eddie, starting from the beginning. I'll get back to LQ eventually.
It takes me a lot of effort to get good reads and I'm going to put that effort in instead of just hoping that everything will magically become clear to me because I am Llamarble.

Good to see you're taking a step back to think on things.

NSG vs LQ is TvT to me. I'd like at least a 6 person town block (the 3 that are on there + LQ, Marble, and NSG if they would be so kind to join us) to turn up the heat on that GE wagon, please and thank you.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm taking this a lot slower now Eddie, starting from the beginning. I'll get back to LQ eventually.
It takes me a lot of effort to get good reads and I'm going to put that effort in instead of just hoping that everything will magically become clear to me because I am Llamarble.

Good to see you're taking a step back to think on things.

NSG vs LQ is TvT to me. I'd like at least a 6 person town block (the 3 that are on there + LQ, Marble, and NSG if they would be so kind to join us) to turn up the heat on that GE wagon, please and thank you.

North I have no problem being on the Town block. Not sold on Llama tho.

[EddieFenix]

I'd like to hear the opposition to Llama, if you could be so kind, LQ .

[LicketyQuickety]

I'd like to hear the opposition to Llama, if you could be so kind, LQ .

Llama has so far been a vary chaotic player. As such, I think those sorts of players are the type you can't get a solid read on right away. That's why I am hesitant to put them in a Town core. It's not even that I SR Ll, it's that I don't feel comfortable giving a solid read on that slot yet, if that makes sense.

[EddieFenix]

Completely and utterly logical imo.

[EddieFenix]

Do you have any opinions on anyone else that could/should be added to the town core, LQ?

[Llamarble]

Full stop right here. There is pretty much NOTHING that says you can use to conclude that was a bus vote. It's a gut read and a stretch at that. There are reasons to Scum read you if you say stuff like this.

It felt like a bus vote to me too, simply off of the timing and it being a naked vote.
I still think Dunnstral is a pretty good possibility for scum.

Having CES, TSQ, Postie all be town, seems lucky but I guess it's not far from 50%
Still, strong players are going to look somewhat town at the beginning of games, not going to pretend I feel confident either way about any of them.
TSQ was scumpinging me some earlier but has done enough Good Works to be on the positive side of null.

Currently here, not ready to lynch or "LEAVE ALIVE ENDGAME" anyone though:
TOWN-
Llamarble

NSG
Eddie

Postie
Gamma - seemed town to me but not definite and others disagree so
CES
TSQ

Lycan
Sauce Neutral Point
LQ

AD
Marquis

Wgeurts
Dunnstral
Tchill

VOTE: Tchill

[Postie]

Why's Tchill scum?

[northsidegal]

llamarble, could you talk a bit about your cogito ergo sum and actiondan reads? i would personally have both of them swap sides on that list there – dan i've gotten some pretty good town feelings from and my teammates largely agree, whereas i'm not really seeing cogito ergo sum's contribution to the game as of yet.

[Postie]

VOTE: EddieFenix

Also can we take a moment to discuss the hot garbage that is EddieFenix's ISO
It's just a bunch of sitting back and saying things from the sidelines or am I missing something here

[Llamarble]

If you have different reads on CES and AD, that's fine, my reads on them aren't strong enough to be worth justifying in detail.

CES especially I've been successfully buddied by in the past. In this game he's been a little helpful, though "let's wagon marble" is pretty doable from scum so he should probably be closer to where Lycan is on the list. I do regard him as very threatening as scum; if he's alive in lylo, default lynching him really might be a good idea (in no small part because agreeing on a default lynch eliminates the "if one townie gets it wrong in lylo, town loses even if everyone else gets it right" problem). If scum want to take advantage of that they have to leave him alive a while; I feel like he's good enough at town that it's not a bad deal for us, and we don't know he's town anyway.

AD I can see scum writing the posts of. But I'll admit they're pretty good, so he can go hang out in the Lycan zone too.

[Llamarble]

Eddie isn't as bad of a vote as I was thinking, so go for it.
Tchill is... too chill. I want to see more bite. I don't really get a feeling he's trying to win the game for town.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

'Marble, why do you consider Marquis to be the towniest of the three lurkers {Dunnstral, wgeurts, Marquis} when his posts have a) been scummier and his lurking has been more in the style of a scumbag?

Vote: Marquis