Open 710: MKUltra - Foreign Spies Win!

[Iconeum]

So Tatl and Teal:

42 TT comments on skitter post to TD in regards to general advice. TT says he likes that post, but I don't. Skitter could have made that same comment earlier towards TT's opening post which was the same only larger.
I don't like skitter there, and I don't like TT's response to skitter either.

In that same post calling out NM's claim as possibly genuine, but no interest in following that up.

In 82 he backs down and says there is maybe no meaning in NM claim. Also, other aspects of NM's play are town? I'd want to see where you think he has played town so far.

[Tatl and Tael]

Ico, your use of "he" makes me wonder if you realise we're two different people in this slot. Also we're different genders.

42 was me. I said I liked skitter's observation because the observation was good - it was a point in favour of skitter's towniness. There were also differences between TD's post and ours, and if you think skitter's observations also apply to Tael's post you should point out where instead of just saying it was "the same only larger". Specifics make it look like you read the posts.
I did think N_M's claim could be genuine and no, I had no interest in following that up because where would it take me?

82 was not me, so your thing about "backing down" is a bit weird. Tael said he doesn't think there's meaning in N_M's post, which is fair considering he could and would make it as either alignment.
For townreading him, I'm thinking along similar lines to GIF's 59. I'd rather focus on other players, since that leans him enough town for me for now.

Why do you not like skitter's 38, and what do you not like about my response?

I kinda disagree with you on RF though, I'm tending town on him overall.

You mentioned this a bit but can you explain more? Also I've got no meta on you and I'm still townreading you.

not weird at all

directed at entire game, clarify:

dont like how people are being scumread for reasoning abt one read and voting another

yeah not sure what you mean
if anything I'd think this was directed at Kop's 129
why would you instead direct it to the whole game


-Tatl

[Iconeum]

How am I supposed to judge a slot if 1 head says something is scummy, and the other one comes in saying the opposite?
I'm not going to let you cover up like that. That would only allow your other half to come in and save you if any of you slip.

Make up your mind, and then say what you want. It doesn't help town to hear 2 colliding opinions coming from 1 slot.

[Tatl and Tael]

We've got the same role PM and we have differed on no significant reads, just our progression on a single fairly trivial point. It's a bit early to be complaining about dissonance here.

You can still read us independently, we're signing our posts. You can still decide whether we contradict each other because we're town disagreeing on reads or because we're scum who messed up.

Not sure why hearing multiple opinions would bother town at all.


Also good job on focusing on that and not on my questions regarding your opinion on skitter's post and my response. Still would like an answer on that.


-Tatl

[Iconeum]

Agreed it's early, but I noticed it and found it worthy to mention.

Regarding Skitter, his 38 was in response to TD's 19. I feel that post would have been better suited as a response to your 21. It strikes me that he chose TD's post over yours to respond to.

He only responded with a joke on statistics.

[Iconeum]

Also to elaborate on NM, I don't think it's a trivial point. I'm voting him because he claimed mafia, and has made no attempt at, well, anything. Your slot says they consider NM as scum, but also as not scum but also not as town. Now if NM would be lynched, that gives us exactly 0 indication on where you stand.

[Tatl and Tael]

Regarding Skitter, his 38 was in response to TD's 19. I feel that post would have been better suited as a response to your 21. It strikes me that he chose TD's post over yours to respond to.

He only responded with a joke on statistics.

It was probably the content, strangely enough. You're still not being specific

Spoiler: skitter's post

To that end, standard reminder that, yes, this is multiball, and yes, scum scumhunt too. That said, town is the only faction actively hunting for both teams, town is the only faction completely uninformed, and town is the only faction that can have most of its members die and still win. So on one hand, fuck multiball scumhunting (thanks Impede for signing me up for this), but it's also possible by tells that are different from singleball.

This feels kinda LAMIST to me tbh.

Like you're throwing out (very) general advice for what you think town ought to be aware of, and the last paragraph kinda feels like it exists to demonstrate that you're scumhunting.

N_M vote/wagon is good, Beefster/Mumble seem town. Sky is weird and that might be due to toning against meta.

Like I feel like the conclusions you've drawn are kinda weird/unsubstantiated for this stage of the game? Like I'm not really sure what you've seen that's AI from either Beef or Mumble. What does 'weird' mean in this context, and what does this context even mean lol?

------

Failing to doc us results in us dying and statistically means that y'all lose the game which is not fun for you.

I'm pretty sure statistics don't work this way lol

She pointed out several things. Yes, Tael was being LAMIST as heck, because it was important. But the advice given was not general, it was very specific and focused on us. Finally, she pointed out that Techdiff was making "weird/unsubstantiated" claims. I don't see any of these in Tael's opening post.

Basically skitter's observations don't seem to apply to the content of our post at all beyond the LAMIST one so I don't know why you're still saying they are. I agree that it's weird she didn't really engage with Tael's post beyond the joke but it looks like she's been engaging as the game goes on so that doesn't really bother me.

Your slot says they consider NM as scum, but also as not scum but also not as town. Now if NM would be lynched, that gives us exactly 0 indication on where you stand.

? I said I thought he would do it as scum, I didn't say I thought he was scum for it - he would do it as town too. Not sure why you're confused on this. We're pretty firmly not scumreading him.


-Tatl

[Iconeum]

Well as you can see the whole double tap has me confused. At least now I know where you stand on NM.

[Iconeum]

I'm not voting for Not Mafia this day phase. I have had a lot of dealings with Not Mafia and he plays the same almost, in either alignment. It gets to a point that he virtually becomes a policy lynch for myself because he's hard to read. So I'm not prepared to jump on that wagon just yet.

But this vote stands out for me.

VOTE: RedFlavour

You want to postpone NM lynch, despite you believe it will become a policy lynch anyway. That's not a town mindset, as lynching NM later only gets in the way of lynching more developped leads/reads.

Also, kettle and pot something with your vote here ->129
You vote someone else then who you talk about/attack, but you call out and vote Red for that very reason.

[Viomi]

VOTE COUNT

Not_Mafia

(3) - Iconeum, RedFlavor, Sky_Paladin

RedFlavor

(3) - Hawk, Kop, Not_Mafia

Technical Difficulties

(3) - Beefster, skitter30, Tatl and Tael

Iconeum

(1) - Mumble

Sesq

(1) - Technical Difficulties

Sky_Paladin

(1) - Sesq

Not Voting:

GuyInFreezer

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Tick tock... (expired on 2018-02-21 13:25:00)

[Beefster]

You can still read us independently, we're signing our posts. You can still decide whether we contradict each other because we're town disagreeing on reads or because we're scum who messed up.

I think this is a good point. I think a scum hydra would make a strong effort to be unified.

A little bit WIFOM, but eh.

[GuyInFreezer]

Oh, let me be lazy for one more day.
Have too much on my plate today.

[Hawk]

Hey I'm back, I'll catchup what I missed and try and make a post later today.

[RedFlavor]

GIF's tone is wolfy and I don't like the Not_Mafia's prodge vote on me with no reason at all. Sky seems townish and

I was V/LA for three days. Not an excuse, I'm just curious how this can be a real thing from you (note my vote was on Red and I'd asked Not Mafia to explain themselves) so that seems kind of fake effort there.

To be fair, I’m REALLY busy and totally forgot about your V/LA when I posted that. MB. Idk why you are kidgloving me on that though. Why didn’t you go for the throat and accuse me of being manipulative? That’s what I would’ve done. Idk your meta so I can’t say if you’re normally a BOTD-giver, but I both appreciate it and am mystified by it.

TD saying

Idk why you are kidgloving me on that though. Why didn’t you go for the throat and accuse me of being manipulative? That’s what I would’ve done.

This part seems weird. I almost thought TD was going to blame Sky for that. I think blaming it for that does not make sense. Actually maybe they said this to accuse him in the future. I don't know but it seems off

[Sesq]

151

because holy shit my point was that multiple people are doing it why are you trying to redirect me to this man

can you guys please read my posts before you respond to them?

[Sesq]

so SICK of all this he said she said SHIT that is comprising this games CONTENT right now

theres no clashes, theres no anything going on

ITS PURE PAIN

I AM IN PURE PAAAAAIIIN

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


i think i know why

VOTE: tatl tael

[skitter30]

When playing the game with Boonskiies I took the time to read every single game you've played. I feel pretty confident in my ability to ascertain that.
If I couldn't recognize your towngame I wouldn't have had the confidence to push on you like I did in the boon game

Hmmmm, I guess I can buy this.

I guess I'm just feeling kinda wary of your slot atm because I'm getting some pocketing / buddying vibes from you guys rn and it's disconcerting me a bit and making me kinda paranoid.

Like I feel like Key was low-key defending me to Iconeum. And like explaining my posts for me?

-------

You mentioned this a bit but can you explain more?

I think it's mostly gut atm, and I can't articulate it super well right now. I guess he just seems very open and forthright. Like he doesn't seem to be trying to be evasive or misleading or manipulative.

Also yeah I was kinda reaching, I did not read everything properly when I voted that

It's mostly from this -> I feel like if scum got called out for reaching they probably don't immediately back down and admit they didn't read everything? Like they'd be more self-conscious imo.

Someone asked me about what would I expect from math's scum game, I thinked about it and it would probably be pocketing some people and outing their scumread, so I agree that it might be early to TR him.

Like this feels very open and reflective.

I feel like I'm getting his unfiltered thoughts about the game, if that makes sense?

-----

Agreed it's early, but I noticed it and found it worthy to mention.

Regarding Skitter, his 38 was in response to TD's 19. I feel that post would have been better suited as a response to your 21. It strikes me that he chose TD's post over yours to respond to.

He only responded with a joke on statistics.

a) she

b) I'm an applied math major and after working through a sequence of classes in probability, I feel oddly compelled to point out when people are misapplying statistics lol

c) RC's post was kinda LAMIST also but it differed from TD's in that he actually gave concrete scum behaviors to look out for in this particular game (although now that I think about it, I don't really recall seeing TT follow up on that anywhere ...), whereas TD's just threw out some incredibly vague and general advice. Like TD's advice wasn't really directed towards any specific purpose and was so vague that it wasn't actually helpful. Like at first glance, his advice seemed useful but if you actually thought about it, it wasn't. So it looked like it was there more to make him look good and like he was contributing then to actually help people look for scum in this game, which is why I called it LAMIST.

------

can you guys please read my posts before you respond to them?

I'm reading your posts but tbh I'm having trouble parsing them and figuring out what you're referring to much of the time.

[Technical Difficulties]

Decided to take a look at the fence-sitty goodness that is Beefster.

30 He calls me self-conscious for a joke post. Still have no idea where this came from.
41 Same thing. More use of the term "self-conscious" which is close to as subjective as you can possibly get.
62 He says that self-conscious is not necessarily scummy, but good enough for page 3.

@Beef: Ostensibly you have better reasoning/context now that it's page 7?

88 Being friendly. Probably completely NAI, but I felt like including it.
93 Here he actually defines self-conscious as scum trying to look towny but doesn't explain how this applies to his vote.
103 Soft-defending Sesq while still fence-sitting it.
126 Annoying post after Math was explicit about his role in this hydra. Fence sits. "I don't like it" is my favorite rationale for scumreading.
160 More fence sitting.

Basically, it looks like Beef is showing up just to show up and has no interest in pursuing real scumhunting. He tries to make his posts look analytical and thoughtful, but they fail to come to ANY conclusions whatsoever or advance the discussion in any way.

VOTE: Beefster

-Impede

[Sesq]

solid wagon

VOTE: beefster

[Beefster]

You make a pretty good case tbh.

VOTE: Beefster

Oh wait. that's me.

UNVOTE:

I've been lazy. That's all I can really say. There is no excuse for my being a passive fence sitter up to this point.

I don't really have any strong opinions right now, so I'm going to fix that and reread.

[Beefster]

I'm not quite sure why, but I was sheeping Tatl and Tael for a while... Upon closer inspection, they look scummier than they did initially.

I'm not sure what to think about Sesq
I was wrong about TD and heavily misread - They're probably town.
Tatl and Tael seem quite self-conscious. It's a hard slot to read, but I'm going to lean scum on them. Tael's opening post that was theory-heavy looks somewhat suspicious and that hydra slip looks like it may have been deliberate attempt to look like careless town. Same could be said about head contradiction.
RedFlavor and Hawk both look reaching in their logic. I suspect they're both scum, possibly even a scumteam. But it's hard to say anything for sure.
Not_Mafia seems passive/lurky, but maybe I'm just not paying enough attention.

VOTE: Hawk

[Viomi]

Just letting you guys know, I'm very sick at the moment. This won't hurt my activity and I'll be able to mod (almost) as effectively, however the flavor might suffer and my votecounts might be off here and there. Feel free to point out any mistakes, and I apologize in advance.

[RedFlavor]

I'm not quite sure why, but I was sheeping Tatl and Tael for a while... Upon closer inspection, they look scummier than they did initially.

I'm not sure what to think about Sesq
I was wrong about TD and heavily misread - They're probably town.
Tatl and Tael seem quite self-conscious. It's a hard slot to read, but I'm going to lean scum on them. Tael's opening post that was theory-heavy looks somewhat suspicious and that hydra slip looks like it may have been deliberate attempt to look like careless town. Same could be said about head contradiction.
RedFlavor and Hawk both look reaching in their logic. I suspect they're both scum, possibly even a scumteam. But it's hard to say anything for sure.
Not_Mafia seems passive/lurky, but maybe I'm just not paying enough attention.

VOTE: Hawk

Does not
me and hawk were reaching so we can be scumteam
sound reaching?

VOTE: beefster

[Hawk]

I'm not quite sure why, but I was sheeping Tatl and Tael for a while... Upon closer inspection, they look scummier than they did initially.

I'm not sure what to think about Sesq
I was wrong about TD and heavily misread - They're probably town.
Tatl and Tael seem quite self-conscious. It's a hard slot to read, but I'm going to lean scum on them. Tael's opening post that was theory-heavy looks somewhat suspicious and that hydra slip looks like it may have been deliberate attempt to look like careless town. Same could be said about head contradiction.
RedFlavor and Hawk both look reaching in their logic. I suspect they're both scum, possibly even a scumteam. But it's hard to say anything for sure.
Not_Mafia seems passive/lurky, but maybe I'm just not paying enough attention.

VOTE: Hawk

Does not
me and hawk were reaching so we can be scumteam
sound reaching?

VOTE: beefster

So I haven't finished my catchup because the last thing I see after reading is that Beefster has decided that me and RedFlavours "reachy comments" make us both scummy and possibly a pair.

Uhhh Beef where's the logic in me voting Redflavor in a multiball if we are scum partners?? Distancing? I mean I can see that I guess. But imo I don't come into a day distancing when I play scum.

Impedes case on Beefster is pretty good but I'm still very wary of both Hydra slots. People keep talking about being selfconcious and their intros.

I don't see the "tryhard" angle on Kop from TD and I dont get why they might be pushing it that way. Kops always fairly Lurky and in multiball it's going to be even more scummy looking so choosing to say his posts were "tryhard" is an odd choice.

TnT idk felt fency?? kinda not really I'm not sure what pinged me I'll go back again and try and articulate it better but something about what they've been saying feels very off to me.

Asside from that I have a few people I don't think are pairs so that'll help later as we sort it down the line but for now I still like my Redflavor vote. Since his OMGUS vote on Beefster makes me wary. Tho these two are most likely never paired.

Beef why me and not RedFlavor if both out "reachy" comments made us scummy?

[Beefster]

Gut I guess. I had to pick one and I was slightly more bothered by your post than RedFlavor's. I can't exactly put my finger on what it is. Maybe if I go over your ISO I can figure that out...